When is a male Prog not an SV?

I would like to see the actual Genesis follow up article myself.. I also remember doing quite a lot of work on scenarios, with decision flow charts, profile pics etc etc.........

GENESIS ISSUE 03 OF 2014 (60 pages)

Stammoeders en Stamvaders
Daan Botes & June Barnes
"Die oudste geïdentifiseerde manlike lid van die betrokke familielyn wat eerste in Suid Afrika aangekom het, , ongeag in watter land hy gesterf het.

Matriarchs and Patriarchs
Daan Botes & June Barnes
The oldest or most senior named or known member of the family line who first arrived in South Africa no matter where he died.

Judi assured me on behalf of Genesis that that had been rectified!

GENESIS ISSUE 04 OF 2014 (68 pages)

Stamvaders en Stammoeders 5
Daan Botes & June Barnes
Die artikels wat ons voorgelê het oor Stamvaders/Patriarchs is uitgebrei om Stammoeders/ Matriarchs ook te dek omdat daar skynbaar nie voorheen enige diepgaande gesprek daaroor was nie.

Matriarchs and Patriarchs
Daan Botes & June Barnes
The articles which we have presented on the subject of Stamvaders /Patriarchs were extended to discuss Stammoeders/Matriarchs as it seemed that they had not previously been examined in any depth.

http://www.eggsa.org/genesis_contents.htm

Private, Daan Botes & Private User
I took it on good faith that that had been rectified in the next issue?

GENESIS Issue/uitgawe 45 30 November 2014 pp50

STAMVADERS EN STAMMOEDERS 5
Daan Botes & June Barnes
Die artikels wat ons voorgelê het oor Stamvaders/Patriarchs is uitgebrei om Stammoeders/Matriarchs ook te dek omdat daar skynbaar nie voorheen enige diepgaande gesprek daaroor was nie. Ek en June het vir ‘n ruk met die begrippe paternale en maternale stammoeders eksperimenteer ten einde erkenning te gee aan Ouma Wiese wat in Suidwes-Afrika aangekom het as die mees senior familiehoof. Dit het gelei tot ‘n projek wat op geni.com. begin is oor Stammoeders en Matriarchs, wat gelei tot bespreking oor die onderwerp daar. Ons het nagelaat om erkenning te gee aan die bydrae wat daardie bespreking gemaak het in die rig van ons denkproses, in die besonder die insette van Sharon Doubell van Johannesburg. Die GENi gesprek het ons aanvanklik gehelp in die daarstelling van definisies wat voorgelê is vir oorweging in ons artikels. Ons verskoning dat nagelaat is om vroeër erkenning te gee aan haar bydrae.

MATRIARCHS AND PATRIARCHS
Daan Botes & June Barnes
The articles which we have presented on the subject of Stamvaders /Patriarchs were extended to discuss Stammoeders/Matriarchs as it seemed that they had not previously been examined in any depth. Daan and I had been deliberating about paternal and maternal Stammoeders with regard to “Ouma Wiese” to acknowledge her as female head of a family who arrived in Southwest Africa for some time. This led to the setting up of a project on geni.com. about Stammoeders and Matriarchs, which resulted in some discussion on the subject there. We failed to acknowledge the contribution those discussions made to our thinking, in particular the input of Sharon Doubell of Johannesburg.
The GENi discussion initially helped us formulate the definitions put forward for consideration in our articles. We apologise for our oversight in not acknowledging her input before.

Thankyou, I'm very relieved to see that it did happen. It is worded to suggest that my pre- existing use of the terminology wasn't already in place, and doesn't acknowledge that most of the formulation on geni was mine. However, it is water under the bridge, so I would simply ask that it isn't publicised or posted again, without attributing all the people actually involved.

=What I did have a problem was that the choice of the term would imply change of the generally accepted term of stammoeder. I felt to change stammoeder from its current definition to oldest female progenitor is just too drastic without proper discussion and gaining understanding and acceptance from the wider genealogy community in South Africa.=
Daan - much of this Discussion has been about me pointing out exactly that and waiting for responses which did not come.

The use of terminology created on geni is not constrained by the fact that you posted it onto GEnesis, and certainly doesn't require their acceptance before we update it.
June pointed out here that the SV is not a preexisting term either.

=much of this Discussion has been about me pointing out exactly that and waiting for responses which did not come=

It would have been to get the understanding and acceptance of the wider SA genealogical community to change widely used and entrenched definitions - and this discussion is not visible

=The use of terminology created on geni is not constrained by the fact that you posted it onto GEnesis, and certainly doesn't require their acceptance before we update it. =

Agree, the published article's purpose was only to inform - I am not aware of other forums that discuss these matters in depth

This Discussion is not visible?

The wider genealogical community is not necessarily users of Geni so that they do not see this

This is a Geni Discussion about a system developed on Geni when I realized we weren't labelling the actual female progenitor, only the male. Because you published that system under your own name in your genealogical society's magazine - even using my exact words- doesn't mean Geni is now beholden to consult them before we update it. This is getting bizarre. It is ludicrous to suggest that decisions about Geni cannot be made on Geni.

=doesn't mean Geni is now beholden to consult them before we update it.=

Agree, I was however referring to the definition of the stammoeder being the most senior female arriving vs the current entrenched wife of the stamvader

=Because you published that system under your own name in your genealogical society's magazine=
Yes your term satisfied another requirement I had. You raised your objection and we apologised in the next edition . See "June Buchanan yesterday at 11:27 AM" above.

I know you were referring to that. I've been raising that question with no answer for most of the discussion. Cf all the links I posted a page or three ago - begging for engagement on it.

You just posted a pdf of the article to this discussion that did not attribute me at all, (so much for apologies!) implying that we on Geni are now constrained by the audience of an article written about our own designators.

My take:

Family Name Patriarch (Stamvader )

Is the most senior male family member who produced issue in South Africa or had children carrying his surname come to South Africa
(even if that family name died out after 1 generation, ie only females were born, while his daughters carried his name he was the family patriarch or Stamvader, therefore for historical purposes he has Stamvader status)

If the family line was started by brothers, only the eldest is the Family Name Patriarch or SV.

If unrelated men started different families carrying the same name, then we can grant them each SV status, earliest being SV1 etc… etc.

Family Name Matriarch (Stammoeder) wife of the above who was mother to Stamvaders children, if he remarried and had more children, 2nd wife is SM2

Biological Progenitor (biologiese stigter)

Originator of a Biological (DNA) line, (males YDNA Prog) and (females mtDNA Prog)

:-) In my opinion - 'When is a stam not a stam?' - when it dies out in a country. Certainly when it dies out after one generation. But I'm not sitting vas on this one.
I'm happy to go with that if people want it.

Yes let us not "sit vas" ...

The major difference between "My Take" and what Daan published is, Daan has the earliest arrivee as the SV, and I think it should be the eldest or most senior family member to set foot in SA..

I also think we need a different translation for Stamvader... Progenitor is causing confusion, as we have started using Prog to relate to DNA.

=just posted a pdf of the article =
The pdf is a copy of the same document on which June posted the apology and is a GENi project document since 16 June 2014=

=My take:=

Agree but would make all the brothers SV's
Reason for that if you select only the eldest brother as SV you will have a number of descendants who do not have a direct paternal link to the chosen father ex. the VERMEULEN family

The pdf does not attribute me. Please remove it from the geni project until it does. It is not a small matter to publish some one else's work under your name, without attributing them. In the academic world there is no higher offence. I was surprised that you did it to start with, and I'm even more surprised that you continue to defend that.

Can we have the numbering SVs discussion on a thread labelled as such or it will be lost forever more on this one.

I can remember at some time it was pointed out by a mutual decision between all of of that the SM - if she is a child of a SV and SM married another SM would be labelled accordingly. I.e. SMb1c5 or something in this line.
But that was also two years or more back
Attribution is a thing I feel strongly about and we always try ans do that. I forgotten we do it in the next issue.

I won't "sit vas" on the brother issue, its just my opinion that if some of the VERMEULENs are not descended from the eldest brother who is SV well that is unfortunate. You can't have five brothers who are all Patriarchs.

Something about stammoeder - Pagina 1 van 1

Nieuw woordenboek der Nederlandsche taal

. gel. (ik stamde, ben gestamd), afstammen. [Stammoeder] Stammoeder, v. (-s), eerste of oudste moeder
1864 I.M. Calisch, N.S. Calisch
Nieuw woordenboek der Nederlandsche taal

). ↑*...VROUW, v. (-en), stammoeder. *...VRIEZEN, ow. ong. (ik vroor of vroos aan, ben aangevroren of
1864 I.M. Calisch, N.S. Calisch

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/cali003nieu01_01/zoek.php

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aartsvader
Another
This is getting interesting now.

"eerste of oudste moeder" is very different to "wife of the SV"

Some Families with Slave Stamouers - South Africa's Stamouers
http://www.stamouers.com/people-of-south-africa/slaves/679-some-fam...
Dorothea van Bengale stammoeder of AHLERS. Maria Magdalena Combrink stammoeder of ALBERTS. Johannes Christoffel van Balie ANTHONISSEN

OK I am about to go on nursing duties.
J
See a lot here
http://int.search.myway.com/search/GGmain.jhtml?searchfor=Stammoede...

If we can cast in stone that our terms mean the following, we might get there.

SV = Stamvader / Family line Patriarch (not Progenitor)

SM = StamMoeder / Family line Matriarch

Y-Prog = Manlike Biologiese Stamouer / Male Biological Progenitor

Mt-Prog = Vroulike Biologiese Stamouer / Female Biological Progenitor