When is a male Prog not an SV?

Many people share a stamvader but are not related even though they share the same surname (clan name).

Similarly, man women share the same maternal DNA and are directly related on their maternal lines but have various differing stammoeders.

This is not unusual or abnormal and as a trend will increase over time making things more difficult.

Men carry surnames, some through NPE (non-paternal events), that means they may have two STAMVADERS :-) one surname and one y-DNA. The word stamvader refers to the stam or family name, not the specific DNA lineage.

I think we are a bit off the original Question which June and Daan already answered.

You would not call a bachelor a S/V except if he is caught out :-) :)

I think that is the original point, Dries. That the SV designator is describing the familienaam line, and not the biological line. So men who don't have sons are not an SV, even if they are a PROG (biological).

I think we do not argue from the same departure point, hence some of the the problems above. To get to the same point of understanding, we must read our latest definitions in https://www.geni.com/projects/South-African-Progenitors-Matriarchs-.... Those definitions may need further revisits since it might not cover all situations we might come across

Since Im am travelling in the Northern Free State, I will deal with the questions later, but now only summarise some definitions/principles which I think we agreed/had consensus on in our last discussions:

1) SV/PROG = Stamvader/Progenitor is the (Afrikaans/English) term for the most senior male member of a family line who first arrived in a country and had descendants, regardless which country he was born or where he died. It is singular concept i.e we did not seperate SV from Progenitor therefore a male cannot be a stamvader and not a be progenitor or vice versa. (this different in the case of females)

2. SM and Progenitor, in the case of females, are two different concepts but could be vested in one female

a) SM is the wife of a stamvader(SV/PROG) and includes the possibility that she might never have arrived in South Africa.

b) Progenitor is the oldest/most senior mother of a family line to ARRIVE in South Africa.

It implies tha a second generation female can only be SM,
a first generation female can be SM and Progenitor (SM/PROG),
a first generation widowed female (with accompanying children) can only be Progenitor for her arrival family name.

Just remember that one of the purposes developing a female progenitor concept was to honour a female who arrived alone with children in a country.

These concepts are by no means final and any new perspectives are welcome.

If for instance we say for instance it is unthinkable that any third generation person does not have a SM, what do we say in terms of SM in the case of a widowed mother whose accompanying daughter has a child from an unknown father?

Yes, this presumes all of those as true.

Except it isn't clear to me what your point is here:
=If for instance we say it is unthinkable that any third generation person does not have a SM=
Did we say that? It's perfectly possible for females to have no Familienaam SMs in the country. Your eg below is a good (though unlikely) example:

=what do we say in terms of SM in the case of a widowed mother whose accompanying daughter has a child from an unknown father?=
Widowed women arriving with daughters are Progs of all of their grandchildren There is no SM here, because no SV.

Which is my point about SV: It's a cultural Surname line designator.

So male settlers who arrive here & have no sons cannot - by this definition - be SVs, even if they have daughters.

And perhaps your above example is not so unlikely at all, given the number of slave Progenitor women who were raped by unidentifiable men.

In America they sometimes use Pilgrim Fathers or Founding Fathers.

The interesting difference between SA and the USA is that in SA stamvader is associated with a surname or family name and in the USA Pilgrim or Founding Fathers specifically refer to pioneers who first settled an area, town or country, similar to eg. Voortrekker or Dorslandtrekker.

In the USA progenitor is not viewed as a Founding Father whereas in South Africa Stamvader is viewed, correctly or wrongly, as the Afrikaans equivalent for Progenitor.

This in my opinion is causing the following conflict. Culturally stamvader does not work well for any individual ancestor that does not fit a predetermined set of criteria.

It just does not work well in cases where it would simply be easier and more accurate to use an Afrikaans word for PROGENITOR instead of the loaded term Stamvader.

To assume that Stamvader could be used in the place of Progenitor would be similar to assuming that Afrikaans and English cultures are the same. It would also be assuming that the etiology of these two words and the feelings and ideas they bring to mind in ordinary South Africans are exactly the same.

The issue is cultural and it is making genealogy difficult. Stamvader is not a good proxy for progenitor. This sets too many cultural limitations and we need to be able to designate a progenitor using the Afrikaans language regardless of gender, marital status or any other socio-cultural determinants.

SA is in the strangely unique position of being able to identify by name a small enough group of bottleneck progenitors from Europe to be able to feasibly conceive of numbering them all. (Unlike the American forefathers, I think.)
-It's not always obvious why trying to set these numbers in stone, especially as new info, DNA results and racial integration change the numbers all the time, but that's not the issue here.

The problem here is that the deVilliers Pama (Stam Vader/Moeder) Numbering system is defined on the patrilineal surname line - a cultural system, as Alex points out - and can't be used to apply to a biological definition of ancestry. Many people seem not to recognise that.
The SV/SM system and the Prog system are two completely different conceptions of what constitutes founding ancestry, and we forget that to the confusion of everything.

You can't make the SV/SM system apply to biology when it suits you (a father of daughters is still an SV) and not apply to biology when it doesn't suit you (a woman is only an SM if she marries an SV).

The Prog system has the advantage of being able to acknowledge female ancestry that is invisible to a patrilineal system. (Daan's widowed mother settler). It is also able to acknowledge the fact of illegitimacy and non-paternal events.
It can't number children in sequence and generation rank, though - because this requires reference to either a father or mother.

At the moment, we're using both systems - & it's working okay. I'm just trying to point out that we need to recognise that they're actually referencing different systems of categorising, if we want to keep the SV/SM and not replace it with an Afrikaans word that means 'biological founder'.

Thanks Sharon. Incorporating both (Stamvader & Progenitor) systems would improve the South African tree in terms of no-frills ancestry, be it biological (DNA ancestry) or culturally undeterminable (stand-alone) ancestors that occur from time to time.

It may be simpler to use a 2nd system that is ancestral. So, looking for an Afrikaans term for ancestor (voorsaat) rather than progenitor.

The problem is that all the descriptions are then in Afrikaans, in a country where half the people don't understand it.

Perhaps the dual language system (English/Afrikaans) should continue.

It would be good if we had a more accurate word in English for 'Stamvader' (SV) and 'Stammoeder' (SM). Then we remove Progenitor (PROG) from there, adding an English word that best describes Stamvader or Stammoeder such as for example Founding Father or Founding Mother abbreviated as (SV/FF) and (SM/FM)

A second system whereby we use 'Progenitor' (PROG) and a more accurate Afrikaans term for ancestor, perhaps 'Voorouer'?

I like the term progenitor, the problem though is Afrikaans lacks a good equivalent. In Afrikaans I think it is easier to think in terms of ancestor, rather than progenitor... but keep the English (PROG) alongside the Afrikaans term.

Not sure what others may think about this. This would mean that in terms of DNA ancestry one could have something looking like this:

(mtDNS Voorouer/mtDNA Progenitor)

Just my thoughts, anybody is welcome to change these suggestions ... or suggest something different.

I agree with Sharon, half of the people in South Africa dint understand English, or let me put it this way,. They understand English but they cant express themselves in English, and taken our history in consideration, they are not willing to do it as long as Afrikaans is one of the official languages or most of Geni users are Afrikaans speaking. If there is any tiny bit of inclination that Afrikaans is going to be the underdog you wont get any cooperation from most of the Afrikaans speaking members.

But please don`t let the the language BECOME AN ISSUE that is why there is provided
for both European groups and if a Zulu joins and used the Zulu terms it will be acceptable
for all of us.
We Afrikaans speaking members of Geni understands what S/V and S/M stands for and where and when to use it. Just as you and other English speaking people know the meaning of PROG/FF (founder father) FM (Founder Mother) stands for. I don`t see why Afrikaans have to be degraded, anglicized or what ever to accommodate other language groups
Please do not take this personally. We are cousins your Grandfathers and Grandmothers and my Grandfathers and Grandmothers are the same people. We just grow up in different cultural environments so we do not share the same value for certain things.

I admire You for all you for all you are doing, I think you taking to much on your self,
In friend ship.

Dries, I am in agreement with everything you said. No degrading here. Stamvader will remain as is. No change, only an additional system that will give everybody more options.

I value your contribution here greatly.

Thank-you!

Alex, I am replying to what Sharon said.. My meaning is that then the English speaking people should get a word for what they need it for, and do not force the Afrikaans users to drop their word what they know it stands for. There is nothing wrong with the current system we do not need more options there. Just get an English word that fits for what it is needed,
We only use the word S/V and S/M only for South Africans to start somewhere with your tree in South Africa. If you can trace them back till sometime somewhere and you get to the first one who`s
Surname is Armenis you can call him your Progenitor the word originates from the Latin word "progignere" which means" Beget" as in Abraham "Begot" Izak.
Maybe begetter is the word we are looking for.

here is some discussion more or less on our line of discussion https://www.geni.com/discussions/159640?msg=1103060

Dries, your example (my father) is very straight-forward. Not all cases are this easy.

In Afrikaans stamvader always = progenitor.
I think the opposite progenitor = stamvader is not always true.

Stamvader is type/kind of progenitor.
Stammoeder is a specific type of progenitor.

There are many kinds of progenitors. For example, a y-DNA Progenitor or a mtDNA Progenitor.

It is not correct to say y-DNS Stamvader. Stam van wat, 'n dns stam?

Dit is presies waarom ek gesê het wat ek gesê het. Stamvader is spesifiek en Progenitor is minder spesifiek. Die 2 woorde is nie dieselfde nie en nou begin dit probleme veroorsaak.

Gee jy om as 'n enkel moder as Stammoeder beskryf word?

Gee jy om as 'n mtDNS voorsaat, die eerste of 10de generasie in Suid-Afrika, maak nie saak nie, as 'n mtDNS Stammoeder beskryf word?

Ons kan al ons voorvaders as stamvaders en stammoeders beskryf maar dan moet hulle binne normale perke so beskryf kan word.

Daar is prifiele wat Engelse genealoe as progenitors beskryf wat nie ooreenstem met stamvader of stammoeder nie. Hoe nou neef?

My whole argument is about Sharon's remark:" The problem is that all descriptions are then in Afrikaans, where half the people don`t understand it"
It is just the same if we use a fabricated word it will be meaningless. If use an English word the other half wont understand it. I am satisfied with the word we use in Afrikaans just find the right English word.and start using it.
We are bending backwards to accommodate everybody, 1) I am writing English at which I am not fluent, for the benefit of those unlucky people who don`t understand Afrikaans. `2. I fill in the profile boxes which are in English.3. We water down our 100% DVP numbering system to more or less a thing that is worth nothing

The end of the story will be that we will be forced to translate our names to English so that every body can understand of whom we are speaking. I will become "Martin Andrew Carl Potmaker" That don`t sound so bad, maybe .I am going to use it.

Every thing have a humorist side. So I will tell you what I see as a humorist, aswel as an accommodating incident.
My Father and Mother divorced when i was about 10 years old and my elder brother about 13 years. My father move from Namibia to Standerton district where he started farming, We remain in Namibia with my mother. Some Decembers we visited my father.
Near him was an Englishman, Mr Gordon, who immigrated from India and with him he brought some Indian customs so he was shunned by both English and Afrikaans people, my father like me didn't bother much about such things and they befriended each other.
But to ACCOMMODATE Mr Gordon my father, who had one year official schooling,
at the Concentration camp at Klerksdorp, had to speak English.,
While my brother and me start fishing in a pan on Mr Gordon's farm . While we were busy angling with in hearing distance we heard my father said " I hef too dotters ent six sins.

"That was to much to bear, We crawl with laughter out of their sight.

Poor Mr Gordon, I believe because of the daughters (dotters) he understood what was meant. It cost a man to admit that you break six of the ten commandments.
Their conversation goes on for a further few hours, And they get better all the time because they try to accommodate each other.
Alex, I enjoy your discussion and you have some good points, but we are bending to much backwards. Let the BIG CANNONS sort this out,

I enjoyed your post Dries. Thank-you for sharing some of your personal thoughts.

I will let the Big Cannons comment now :-)

Just call me 'Long Tom' :-).
A British immigrant to this country once told me that at first she couldn't understand why everyone kept wanting her to "Buy a donkey" :-)

I will add a description into the Stam Vader project https://www.geni.com/projects/South-African-Progenitors-Stamvaders/... that points out that in the case of a South African settler progenitor who only has daughters, the label is not SV, but just Progenitor. (indicating a biological ancestor - genearg or voorsaat).

I looked it up in the "woordeboek" and progenitors is stamvaders in Afrikaans and visa versa.
One and the same thing.
Immigrant from Britian is Setlaars/Setlars.
Hope it helps a tiny bit.
Die Afrikaanse tannie- Juds☺

Enjoying the discussion, but still travelling through the South Karoo, will not be able to respond in detail. However:

1) The problem is not an Afrikaans/English issue, but it would have been handy to have a common term for every concept.

2) The problem is not a specific numbering system which is a separate issue on its own.

3) Some issues arise from trying to express patrilineal and matrilineal concepts in the same system, but that is probably only limited by our own intellect.

4) to get to a generally accepted system we must start with generally accepted practice / latest agreed theory and shaping them to more acceptable format and evolve new concepts for outstanding issues.

5) some of the issues raised above, have been addressed before, but can certainly be revisited especially the SV/PF/FF and their linking to a surname.

Since we should have a system answering all issues, I am looking forward to the structuring (in any approach) of the hypothetical situation of an unmarried female arriving in SA with a daughter who also have a daughter from an unknown father and that goes on up to the fifth generation. - the concept of female PROGENITOR is not an issue here.

=Since we should have a system answering all issues, I am looking forward to the structuring (in any approach) of the hypothetical situation of an unmarried female arriving in SA with a daughter who also have a daughter from an unknown father and that goes on up to the fifth generation. - the concept of female PROGENITOR is not an issue here.=

Not difficult at all: The oldest biological female settler is a PROG. The rest are not labelled.

The concept of female PROGENITOR is the only issue here.

Ek geniet al die besprekings. Dankie vir die humor tussenin.

What is PF/FF?

Ahh thanks Alex

As we are using them on Geni presently:
1) A PROGENITOR (genearg or voorsaat) is the start of the male & female BLOODLINE in a country. ..

2) - A STAM VADER is the start of the male SURNAME line.
- A STAM MOEDER is nothing more than his wife.

*In almost every case the SV is also the PROG = SV/PROG
(In a tiny number of cases the eldest male settler of a bloodline has only fathered daughters. In this case he is still a biological PROG, but NOT an SV)

*In most cases the female PROG is also the wife of the SV = SM/PROG
(In a tiny number of cases the eldest female settler of a bloodline is not married to an SV & so she is just a PROG, NOT an SM. as in Daan's eg above.
In a small number of cases the wife of the SV is not the eldest female settler of her bloodline - her mother is. In those cases she is only an SM, not a PROG.)

O please forgive me but I cant let this chance slip by: What is the address of that British Immigrant family..As from 1820 that 5th one should more or less be of my age. .

=Some issues arise from trying to express patrilineal and matrilineal concepts in the same system, but that is probably only limited by our own intellect.=

The use of the DVN precludes the use of a matrilineal concept on Geni.