Jeffrey Ferris, of Greenwich - The Ancestors and Origins of Jeffrey Ferris (c.1610-1666)

Ran across something about Puritans in Virginia. Gov Berkeley made the few that were there skedaddle in 1642

https://books.google.co.id/books?id=AXdzoxq2NX8C&pg=PA14&lp...

And when Cromwell tried to get Puritans into the Colony (1660s) they couldn't beat the Anglican stranglehold, not to mention they were Royalists.

So... North versus South began as Puritan versus Anglican. Very interesting history. I don't recall that paragraph from American history classes in high school. I guess merchants needed to be religiously adroit.

Erica Howton, I did confirm that Robert Anderson does put Jeffrey Ferris's birthdate at "By about 1604" in "The Great Migration: Immigrants to New England, 1634-1635," Vol. II, (NEHG, 2011), p. 520.

I think it would be wise to reflect that date in Jeffrey's profile to give others a better shot in their research. Rev. Huntngton did not give Jeffrey a birth date in his "History of Stamford, Connecticut" (1868) and we do not know the source of the 1610 date in the 1898 stained glass window in the First Congregational Church of Greenwich, Connecticut. The 1610 date is the only other proposed birth date with any "authority."

In addition, Anderson also does give birth dates for Jeffrey's children that are substantially different from those shown on Geni. Again, I would try to reflect Anderson's dates in the children's profiles. All of Anderson's dates quoted from "The Great Migration" (p. 520) appear below:

Birth: By about 1604 based on estimated date of marriage.

Marriage: (1) By about 1629 ___ ___.

Migration: 1634 [to Watertown]

Children with first wife:
i. Peter, b. say 1629
ii. Joseph, b. say 1632
iii. Mary, b. say 1636
iv. John, b. about 1640 (deposed 5 December 1705 at age 65)
v. James, b. say 1642

I would also note that there is another Geni entry for Jeffrey Ferris showing the 1604 birth date. Jeffrey Ferris, of Greenwich

What is the clue in Jeffrey's given name?

I have been puzzled by Jeffrey Ferris's given name becuase it is unique among the given names of the Ferrers-Ferris family given names. The traditional Ferrers-Ferris family names seem to be Thomas, Edward, Henry, Walter, John, William, etc.

But then I noticed that "Jeffrey" was also a surname in England in the 16th and 17th centuries. Over 400 baptisms under the surname Jeffrey were recorded in England between 1580 and 1620, 50 of those being in Wiltshire. When variations in spelling of the surname Jeffrey (such as Jeffery, Jefferie and Jeffry, etc.) are included, there were nearly 500 baptisms with those variant surnames in Wiltshire alone between 1580 and 1620.

What if Jeffrey Ferris's given name was taken from his mother's maiden name? I have checked for baptism records consistent with the theory but found nothing. Nevertheless, perhaps the theory is worth remembering as a long shot.

In my note above on 6/13/2018 at 11:50 AM, I listed the children of John Ferris and Jone Fowler, who included Roger Ferris (1516-1579) of Aschurch, Gloucestershire. This Roger Ferris was the father of the Merchant Adventurers William (c1559-1625) and Edward (1573-1639) Ferris. The Merchant Adventurers' grandfather, John Ferris, was from Corsham, Wiltshire and his father, also named John Ferris, was from Blunsden, Wiltshire.

I have discovered that there was yet another (perhaps earlier) John Ferris in Wiltshire who was also the Sheriff of Wiltshire in 1459-60. This Sheriff John Ferris is likely a descendant of the Tamworth or Baddesley Clinton lines of Ferrers, but how is not clear. Sheriff John Ferris is described in "Wiltshire The Topographical Collections of John Aubrey, 1659-70," Corr. and enl. by John Edward Jackson, (1862), p. 151 (fn. 2) as follows:

"This Manor [Blunsden St. Andrews]... belonged... in 1459 to John Ferris (or Ferrars) who was Sheriff of Wilts. This family was twice in trouble. In 1. Hen. VII. Ferris of Blunsdon was attainted as a partisan of Rich. III.: and an Edmund Ferris of Blunsdon St. Andrew was included in the attainder of Edmund Delapole, 2nd. Duke of Suffolk, in 1513, when the manor was granted to Sir Giles Brydges..."
https://archive.org/stream/wiltshiretopogra00aubr#page/150/mode/2up

The above quote also indicates there was an Edmund Ferris in Blunsden in 1513, perhaps a son of Sheriff John Ferris. This Edmund Delapole, 2nd. Duke of Suffolk, with whom Edmund Ferris was associated claimed to be the heir to the throne through Richard III and was executed by Henry VIII in 1513. (The "Visitation of Wiltshire, 1565," Harvey (1897) includes an "Edward" Ferris as the brother of John Ferris who was the father of Roger Ferris (1516-1579. Perhaps this "Edward Ferris" was really "Edmund Ferris.")
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofwilt00harvrich#page/n7/mode/...

"Wiltshire The Topographical Collections of John Aubrey, 1659-70," ibid, p. 338 also notes that "The Manor of Mildenhall [also in Wiltshire]... was held by William de Ferrars, seventh Earl of Derby. By marriage of Isabel coheir of Ferrars, and widow of Gilbert Basset..."

It appears that the Ferris-Ferrers of Blunsden, Corsham and Ashchurch were descended from the primary lines of Ferrers who had been the Earls of Derby and later lords of Groby, Baddesley Clinton and Tamworth. By the late 16th century baptism records suggest that the Ferrers-Ferrises had settled in various Wiltshire and Gloucestershir locations including:

Corsham, Wiltshire
Bristol, Gloucestershire
Aston Subedge, Gloucestershire
Steeple-Ashton, Wiltshire
Devizes, Wiltshire
Ashton Keynes, Wiltshire
Trowbridge, Wiltshire
Salisbury, Wiltshire
Ashchurch, Wiltshire
Bishops Canning, Wiltshire
Bremhill, Wiltshire
Calne, Wiltshire (near Bremhill, Wiltshire), both near Corsham

Ferrises, a Mill and Ashton Keynes, Wiltshire

Ashton Keynes, Wiltshire was a manor house originally belonging to Tewkesbury Abbey.

In 1576, Sir John Hungerford of Down Ampney (next to Ashton Keynes) held all of King Edward's interests in the manor at Ashton Keynes by a 1550 grant to his father Sir Anthony Hungerford (born by 1492, died 18 November 1558). That same year (1576) Sir John Hungerford granted a 60 year lease of Ashton Keynes to Anthony Ferris and his wife Elyzabethe including "a house and mill, with mead and arable land adjoining the mill, and a close called Startelatts..." Then, in 1623, "[t]he name of Ferris, the lessee of 1576, re-appears in John Ferris, who had the lease of a mill, probably the same, as the rent is the same, from the previous 21 February [1623] for the lives of himself, Anne his wife, and John his son."

Here is a Ferris family in Wiltshire with a mill on their land. Could this be where Jeffrey Ferris learned about mills? See "Wiltshire Notes and Queries, Vol. VII" (1911-1913), p. 122-126
https://archive.org/details/wiltshirenotesqu07deviuoft

The original lessee, Anthony Ferris and his wife Elizabethe, had children Thomas (b. 1584), George (b. 1587), Elizabeth (b. 1588) and John (b. 1589), each baptism having records on FindMyPast. Presumably, the last son John is the John mentioned in 1623.

Given the birth dates for the children of Anthony and Elizabeth Ferris, Anthony may have been born around 1560. The "Visitation of Wiltshire, 1565," Harvey (1897), p. 19 shows an Anthony Ferris as the third son of George Ferris of Ashton Keynes. That George Ferris was the son of John Ferris and Jone Fowler of Blunsdon who in turn was the son of John Ferris and Margaret Hungerford of Blunsdon. That George Ferris was also the brother of Roger Ferris (1516-1579) in my note immediately above at 6/13/2018 at 11:50 AM. Of course, Roger Ferris (1516-1579) was the father of the Merchant Adventurers, William (1549-1625) and Edward Ferris (1573-1639).
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofwilt00harvrich#page/n7/mode/...

Also see:
"Wiltshire Notes and Queries, Vol. II" (1896-1898), p. 306 re the marriage of John Ferris and Margaret Hungerford
https://archive.org/stream/wiltshirenotesq02deviuoft#page/n5/mode/2...

Confirmation that John Ferris, the Sheriff of Wiltshire in 1459-60, was a progenitor of the Ferrieses of Wiltshire can be found in "The Topographer for the Year 1790, Vol II" (1790). You will also note that in this brief passage and the one that follows it the Ferris name for descendents in the same family is spelled Feiris, Ferrys, Ferris, Ferrys, Ferrers, and Feres.
https://books.google.com/books?id=S_YxAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA103&lpg...

Page 103:

"XIV. John Feiris, Esq. was Sheriff 38 Hen. VI. [1460] John Ferrys of Blounsdon was father of John Ferris of the same, whose son, George Ferrys of Ashton Keynes, had issue by Ann, daughter to Richard Cole, Edward, George, Anthony and Bartholomew.

Ferrers of Blunsdon was attainted, as a partizan of Richard III, at the accession of Henry VII, and this manor granted to Giles Bridges, Esq. father of John, Lord Chandos, from which time that family made it their occasional residence. See Top. Vol. I p. 47."

Page 96-97 (confirming this branch of Ferrises was considered "Nobles" or "Gentry":

"Art. VI. Nobles and Gentry of Wiltshire, in the time of Henry VII. From a MS. in the Cotton Library.

Till a county history can be given, perhaps nothing so compreherisive can be offered in a small compass, as lists like these (with historical notes) of the leading Nobles and Gentry, at a period neither too early, nor too late, which will contain all who have a moderate claim to antiquity, and yet begin ere the old families of long standing have expired.

I. The Lord Brooke, Steward of the King's Household.
II. The Lord St. Amand.
III. Sir John Cheyne.
IV. Sir Walter Hungerford.
...
XIV. Feres of Blounsdon."

Sheriff John Ferris of Blunsdon St. Andrew apparently had an advantage when he was appointed High Sheriff of Wiltshire on 7 Nov. 1459, the same year he acquired Blunsdon St. Andrew which had been owned by Robert Hungerford in 1321. Sheriff John Ferris had married Margaret Hungerford whose grandfather, Walter de Hungerford (1378-1449), and great grandfather, Thomas de Hungerford (d.1397), had both been Sheriffs of Wiltshire. In addition, both of them had been Speakers of the House of Commons. In fact, her great grandfather, Thomas de Hungerford (d.1397), was the first Speaker of the House of Commons recorded in its records.

His appointment as Sheriff of Wiltshire and his acquisition of Blunsdon St. Andrew (which had previously been in the Hungerford family), both in 1459, suggests that 1459 is perhaps the year the Sheriff John Ferris and Margaret Hungerford were married.

See:
Wikipedia re Walter Hungerford
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Hungerford,_1st_Baron_Hungerford

Wikipedia re Thomas Hungerford
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hungerford_(Speaker)

“List of sheriffs for England and Wales,from the earliest times to A.D. 1831,” Public Records Office (1963), p. 152
https://archive.org/stream/listofsheriffsfo00newy#page/152/mode/2up

"Wiltshire. The Topographical Collections of John Aubrey, 1659-70," Corr. and enl. by John Edward Jackson, (1862), p. 151
https://archive.org/stream/wiltshiretopogra00aubr#page/150/mode/2up

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Attainder of Sheriff John Ferris of Blunsdon

I noted above that Sheriff John Ferris was attained in 1485, the year that Henry VII deposed Richard III. Attainder often meant forfeiture of property and death, but not always. It appears that Sheriff John Ferris may have escaped at least the death sentence. In the same "The Topographer for the Year 1790, Vol II" (1790) that notes his attainder, the author lists "Feres of Blunsdon" as among the "Nobles and Gentry of Wiltshire in the time of Henry VII. From MS. in the Cotton Library." Page 103.
https://books.google.com/books?id=S_YxAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA103&lpg...

Below is some data supporting the possibility that the Jeffery Farris who married Dorothy Sleapsend in Wiltshire in 1623 was the migrant. The data is very different from what we would expect today.

In 1619 the average age at first marriage for men in England was 26 or 27 and for women it was 23 to 25. The typical marriage in England was not at a young age like Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet in Verona. (See the data and sources below.)

In addition, about 36% of children died before the age of six. The odds were 1 in 3 that Jeffery Farris and Dorothy Sleapsend would lose a child before that child reached the age of six. Another 24% of children died between the ages of 7 and 16. If Jeffery Farris and Dorothy Sleapsend had a child or two between 1624 and 1634, the odds those children would survive would be about 50/50.

Child mortality was lower and life expectancy was higher for early emigrants to America in part because water sources were cleaner and diseases were not communicated as easily in less dense populations.

Applying demographic averages, the Jeffery Farris from Wiltshire would have been born about 1596 to 1597 (1623 minus average marriage age of 26-27) and Dorothy Sleapsend would have been born about 1598 to 1600 (1623 minus average marriage age of 23-25).

Of course, the above simply applies demographic averages. But the numbers are enlightening. Below are excerpts from the sources for the data.

(1) From the “Age of Marriage,” the University of Victoria, Canada, Internet Shakespeare Editions
http://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/society/family/marri...

“Data taken from birth dates of women and marriage certificates reveals mean marriage ages to have been as follows:

1566-1619 27.0 years
1647-1719 29.6 years
1719-1779 26.8 years

The marriage age of men was probably the same or a bit older than that of women. (In 1619, it was
about 23 for women, 26 for men.)”

(2) From Wikipedia “Western European Marriage Pattern:”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern

“...the average age at first marriage had climbed to 25 years for women and 27 years for men in England and the Low Countries by the end of the 16th century...”

(3) From the Plimoth Plantation.org Web Site

Raising Children in the Early 17th Century: Demographics
https://www.plimoth.org/sites/default/files/media/pdf/edmaterials_d...

“Average life expectancy at birth for English people in the late 16th and early 17th centuries was just under 40... years. However, this low figure was mostly due to the high rate of infant and child mortality; over 12% of all children born would die in their first year. A man or woman who reached the age of 30 could expect to live to 59. Life expectancy in New England was much higher, where the average man lived to his mid-sixties and women lived on average to 62.

Demographers estimate that … A cumulative total of 36% of children died before the age of six, and another 24% between the ages of seven and sixteen. In all, of 100 live births, 60 would die before the age of 16.”

I mentioned in my note above on 6/28/2018 at 8:57 AM that Sheriff John Ferris had an advantage in becoming the High Sheriff of Wiltshire in 1459 because his wife's grandfather and great grandfather had also been Sheriffs of Wiltshire.

I should also have noted that his wife's (Margaret Hungerford's) father, Edmund Hungerford (c.1409-1484) was also appointed the Sheriff of Wiltshire in 1435. “List of Sheriffs, England and Wales from the Earliest Times to A.D. 1831,” Public Record Office, London, p. 153
https://archive.org/stream/listofsheriffsfo00newy#page/152/mode/2up

Sheriff John Ferris of Blounsdon St. Andrew (b. circa 1433) appears also to have been a Member of Parliament in 1467 and 1478. His Parliamentary listing is under the name of “Johannes Ferys, armiger” from Cricklade, Wiltshire. This 1467 listing is next to one for “Edwardus Hungerford, armiger,” also representing Cricklade. “Members of Parliament, Part I, Parliaments of England, 1213-1702” (1879), pp. 359, 365.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1g85AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontco...

Sheriff John Ferris's wife, Margaret Hungerford, had a brother named Edward. So, this Edwardus Hungerford is likely her brother.

Cricklade, Wiltshire is only a mile or two from Down Ampney where Margaret Hungerford was born and only a couple of miles from Blounsdon St. Andrew which Sheriff John Ferris acquired in 1459. Cricklade is also only a couple of miles from Ashton Keynes where many of Sheriff John Ferris's great grandchildren were born in the 1500's.

An “armiger” is a person entitled to bear arms as a squire (landed gentry) attendant on a knight.

A search for the surname Sleapsend on FindMyPast (using no restrictions as to given name, date or location) returns as the only record the Dorothy Sleapsend who married Jeffery Farris in Manningford Bruce in 1623. In other words, there are no records for anyone named Sleapsend at anytime or anywhere in the world other than Dorothy's marriage to Jeffery Farris in 1623. That suggests the transcriber of the Sleapsend-Farris marriage in 1623 made a mistake with her surname.

"The Oxford Dictionary of Family Names in Britain and Ireland," p. 2465, does not have an entry for Sleapsend but does have an entry for the surname "Sleep" which includes as variant surnames Sleap, Slapp and Slape. The Oxford Dictionary does note the Old English form of the name was spelled Slæp. The "æ" (a combination of a nd e) was pronounced like "iy" or "ee." The Middle English form of the name was Slape.
https://books.google.com/books?id=0AyDDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA2465&lp...

Doing a search on FindMyPast for the surname "Sleap" does have numerous returns, particularly for Somerset which is adjacent to Wiltshire. Most of the Sleaps appear around Bridgewater, Somerset.

While on the subject of surnames, the entry for the surname Ferrers in "The Oxford Dictionary of Family Names in Britain and Ireland," p. 904 notes Ferris as a variant of Ferrers. But it also importantly notes that "[a]nother family from Ferrières, Manche settled in Devon" and notes that this separate Ferrières is a former commune in the Manche department in north-western France.
https://books.google.com/books?id=0AyDDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA2465&lp...

In other words, there were two villages in France called Ferrières, one called Ferrières-St-Hillaire in the Eure department (like a county) and another simply called Ferrières in the Manche department. The two villages are about 100 miles apart. (There are now over 20 locations called Ferrières in France.)

The common use of surnames did not arise until several centuries after Henri de Ferrières (1036-1088) from Ferrières-St-Hillaire, Eure settled in Derby and after Ralph de Ferrers (born c.1135) from Ferrières, Manche settled in Bere Ferrers, Devon. (Remember, the "de" in the name Henri de Ferrières is simply French for "from" or "of.")

Therefore, it seems unlikely that the Derby and Devon Ferrers actaully descended from the same single individual in France. Of course, DNA testing could prove the proposition one way or another.

In my note on 6/30/2018 at 11:35 AM above I cited "Raising Children in the Early 17th Century: Demographics." I should have noted that article was written in collaboration with The New England Historical and Genealogical Society which does give it a bit more credence.
https://www.americanancestors.org/features/early-new-england

Another artcile called "Passage To America, 1750" contains quotes from the diary of a German migrant to America in 1750. The account is harrowing and perhaps that voyage was worse than most. But the account does illuminate the dangers of a trans-Atlantic voyage. This German migrant's diary states "Children from one to seven years rarely survive the voyage."
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pfpassage.htm

I have added to the Sources tab a map called "Ferris Wiltshire and Gloucestershire Manors and Residences." Wiltshire and Gloucestershire appear to be fertile areas to search for Jeffrey Ferris.

First, we have found in Wiltshire the only English record of a Jeffrey Farris during the appropriate period.

Second, the contemporaneous Wiltshire Visitation of 1565 gives the surname "Ferris" to all of the family members for several generations. "Visitation of Wiltshire, 1565," Harvey (1897)
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofwilt00harvrich#page/n7/mode/...

Third, there are numerous Ferris Witshire and Gloucestershire descendants of the progenitor of this family, Sheriff John Ferris of Blounsdon St. Andrew (b. circa 1433), for several generations.

And, finally, there are numerous male descendants in this family whose children have not been identified but whose ages could have made them fathers of Jeffrey Ferris.

Graphic charts of these Wiltshire and Gloucestershire Ferris families have been added to the Sources tab. One is called "Descendants of George Ferris (b.circa 1510) of Ashton Keynes, Wiltshire." The other is called "Descendants of Sheriff John Ferris (bef.1438-?) of Blunsdon St. Andrew, Wiltshire."

In my post above on 7/2/2018 at 9:24 AM I noted that there may have been a transcription error in the record for the marriage of Jeffery Farris and Dotothy Sleapsend in Manningford Bruce in 1623. If there was an error in transcribing the Sleapsend surname, there may also have been an error in transcribing the 1623 date. It may be possible that the 3 in that date is really an 8.

Having seen images of original records from that era, it can be difficult to decipher the writing. And, I have seen records that have been damaged by time, water, fire, etc. Of course, that damage always affects just the entry you want to view.

I have not found an image of the Wiltshire record for the 1623 marriage of Jeffery Farris and Dotothy Sleapsend in Manningford Bruce, but that would be my next priority in doing the research.

I may have identified the link that connects the Ferris-Ferries of Wiltshire and Gloucestershire who are descended from John Ferris, Sheriff of Wiltshire and a Member of Parliament, to the Ferrers who were the Earls of Derby.

The question has been: who were the parents of Sheriff John Ferris? He was the progenitor of the Ferris-Ferries of Gloucestershire and Wiltshire. His grandchildren were born around 1510 to 1520. Because he was appointed Sheriff of Wiltshire in 1459, he was likely born at least 20 or 30 years before that appointment. But looking at the descendants of the Earls Ferrers, none of them had a son named John in the period from about 1390 to 1450.

I did suspect that John Ferrers of Saint Albans (b. around 1398 to 1410) might be Sheriff Ferris's father. John Ferrers of Saint Albans was the third son of William Ferrers (1372-1445; 5th Lord of Groby) and Philippa Clifford. This John Ferrers of Saint Albans was close to the Duke of Gloucester (a younger brother of King Henry V and a regent during his youth), was a seneschal to the Duke of Warwick and was appointed in 1455 as the attorney to the Abbot of St Albans, John Wheatampstead (1390-1465).

The "Visitations of Hertfordshire" in 1572 and 1634 showed only one child for John Ferrers and Agatha Breakspear of St. Albans, a son named Edmond.
https://books.google.com/books?id=a_wUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA141&lpg...

But the will of John Ferrers of St. Albans indicates he also had a son named John. The will does not name Edmond, but Edmond may have died early given the various wars occuring at that time, like the Hundred Years War. The Will does name three of his grandchildren by his son John, however. They were Edward, William and Grace. "The Visitation of Wiltshire," 1565, Harvey (1897) mirrors the will and indicates that Sheriff John Ferris had a son named Edward.
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofwilt00harvrich#page/n7/mode/...

The following is the abstract of the will of John Ferrers of St. Albans from "The Herts Genealogist and Antiquary," Vol III (1899), p. 239:

f. 53b. JOHN FERRERS senior of S' Albans. (Dat. 27 Feb. 1447).
Bur. at S' Peters; Legacies to the vicar of Abbots Walden, Dom. Edward Shenley monk of S' Albans, Dom. John Norhampton of Asrherugge, Dom. John canon of the house of S' Bartholomew, London, in Smythfeld; Grace dau. of Wm. Datys; Edward son of John my son; Wm. bro. of sd Edward; Grace sister of sd Edw. & Wm; Agnes Rose servant of my son John; Wm. servant of sd John; Four poor men viz: — John Pycard, Wm. Downer, Thos. Glasyer & Thos. Westwode; Joan Baylly fuller, formerly wife of John Baylly fuller; John Greyby; John Bokyngham; Son John Ferrers junior, John Barbor John Holond" & Wm. Est exors. (Pr. 7 Mch. 1447-8.)
https://books.google.com/books?id=DtMKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA239&lpg... Ferrers hertfordshire st albans child&f=false

The line of descent would be:

1) William Ferrers, Lord of Groby (1372-1445) to his third son
2) John Ferrers of St. Albans (b. circa 1398-1410; died after 1455) to his second son
3) John Ferrers. Sheriff of Wiltshire (b. c.1430-1440)

Do we know his wife ?

John Ferrers, Esq., of St. Albans

The wife of John Ferrers of St. Albans was Agatha Breakspear (aka Brekespere), daughter of Adrian (or Alexander) Breakspear. A couple of centuries earlier Nicholas Breakspear from St. Albans became Pope Adrian IV in 1154, the only English Pope.

Visitations Hertfordshire, 1572 and 1634, p. 141
https://books.google.com/books?id=a_wUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA141&lpg...

The Abbey of Saint Alban, Some Extracts from Its Early History, Rev. H.J.B. Nicholson (1887), p.16
https://archive.org/stream/abbeysaintalban00nichgoog#page/n33/mode/2up

A handful of other 19th century sources describe this John Ferrers and his wife Agatha Breakspeare, but not in too much more detail.

The following are quotes from a couple more sources which further illustrate the Ferrers-Ferris family connections to St. Albans.

The first article suggests the existence of a previously unknown Thomas Ferrers who married a daughter of William Westby living in St. Albans around 1493. It also mentions a John Ferrers as Bailiff of the Liberty in Flamstead between 1494 and 1505. This John was admitted to the “Fraternity of the Monastary” at the petition of John Benstede (probably the father of Catherine Bensted who married John Ferrers, son of Edmund Ferrers who was a son of John Ferrers and Agatha Brekespear.)

The article also mentions a Ralph Ferrers who had a Doctor of Laws in 1475. This Ralph Ferrrers could have been the Ralph noted as a son of Thomas Ferrers (1422-1498) Lord of Tamworth who was married to Anne Hastings. In his "History of the Town and Castle of Tamworth," Palmer (at p. 363 et seq) notes that this Ralph Ferrers became "dean of the church."
https://archive.org/details/historytownandc00palmgoog

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From “Ancient Tomb with Effigies – S. Leonard's Church, Flamstead,” Rev. Fowler, S. Alban's Architectural & Archaeological Society, (1887)
http://www.stalbanshistory.org/documents/1887.09a_jl_.pdf

p. 86
... the connection of the family of Ferrars (or Ferrers) with Flamstead. Thomas de Beauchamp's Countess was Margaret de Ferrars. The name of her father, William de Ferrars, lord of Groby, was enrolled in the Obituary record of S. Alban's Abbey, at her request in 1382, (Lib. Ben. fol. 132). Some of her kindred were resident in S. Albans about the year 1400, or earlier... [W]e learn that John Ferrers, esquire, of S. Albans, had been Seneschal to Henry de Beauchamp, Duke of Warwick, (grandson of Thomas de Beauchamp), who died in 1445.* This John Ferrers married a daughter of Adrian Brekespere, of Langley, and possessed land in the parish of S. Peter, S. Albans. In 1455 he was appointed by Abbot John Wheathampstead his attorney in a certain law suit. (Regist. I. 207). As Seneschal he doubtless managed the manor of Flamstead for the Duke.

p. 87
In 1475, Ralph Ferrers, Doctor of Laws, was appointed Warden of the Hospital of S. Julian, S. Albans—(Regist. II . 120). In 1493, Thomas Ferrers, esquire, was Bailiff of the town of S. Albans: he married a daughter of William Westby, Hundreder of the Liberty, a person of considerable importance. (Lib. Ben. fol. 79). Another John Ferrers, esquire, was Bailiff of the Liberty some time between 1494 and 1505: he was admitted to the Fraternity of the Monastery at the petition of John Benestede, Prior of Tynemouth, brother of his wife Katherine, (fol. 117). In 1549 the manor of Flamstead, (which had come to the crown), was granted by Edward VI. to George Ferrers, of Markyate, son of Thomas Ferrers of S. Albans. He was buried in this church, 11th January, 1578. His son, Julius Ferrers, who succeeded to the manor, was also buried here, (30 Dec. 1596).—[see Cussans, vol. I I , Hund. of Hertford, p. 143]. The name of Thomas de Beauchamp's Steward, is not to be found in the S. Alban's documents, but it is by no means improbable that he was a Ferrers, obtaining the appointment through the influence of the Countess of Warwick, (Margaret de Ferrers), his kins-woman. Possibly he may be the person who gave the glass in S. Peter's church.

************
From "The Historical Antiquities of Hertfordshire,” Vol. I, Henry Chauncy, (1826)
https://books.google.com/books?id=3FUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA33&lpg=...

p. 32-33
A list of “all those Gentlemen... resided in this County, in the time of Henry VI [b.1421; r. 1422-1461], which I collected from the Original Roll...”

Of the Hundred of Caisho [includes Abbots Langley, 3-4 miles southwest of St. Albans. Flamstead is 4-5 miles northwest of St. Albans.]
…
William Westby of St. Albans, Esq.
John Ferrers of St. Albans, Gent.

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From “St. Peter's Church, St. Albans,” S. Alban's and Herts. Architectural & Archaeological Society, W. Carey Morgan (1897-98),
http://www.stalbanshistory.org/documents/1897_1898_05_.pdf

p. 138-39
As regards Cornwall's Chapel, … Edward Westby (no doubt the same Edward Westby who gave shelter in his house* to King Henry VI. at the time of the second battle of St. Albans), in 1471 gave a legacy to the lights of the Holy Cross, and Edward Bensted two years later gave a legacy for the repairs of the Chapel of the Holy Cross of Cornwaylle" as well as to the Chapel of the Charnel...

p. 144
This is heraldic. The horseshoe border denotes, I believe, that the glass was given by a person bearing the surname of Ferrers. A family of that name possessed land in the parish at an early period. The Book of Benefactors of the Abbey records that John Ferrers, seneschal to Henry, Earl of Warwick, was admitted to the fraternity, and gave 10s. of annual rent, arising out of four tofts, situate in New-lane, in St. Peter's parish. The entry, however, is undated. His wife, Agatha, was a daughter of Adrian Brekespere, of Langley. In 1487, William Victor, by his will directs that his body be buried in St. Peter's Church before St. Christopher, near the grave of Edward Ferrers, his wife's brother, and a Thomas Ferrers, bailiff of St. Albans, was admitted to the monastic fraternity in 1493.

It appears that John Ferrers of St. Albans may have been born sometime after 1416 as the son of William Ferrers (1372-1445) and his third wife, Elizabeth Standish (b. circa 1381).

In the 1903 "History of the Family of Wrottesley," which appears well sourced, the author, George Wrotesley, states at page 196 that:

"Sir William de Ferrers, the Baron of Groby, the third husband of Elizabeth, had succeeded his father, Henry, in 1388, at which date he was fifteen years of age; he would be, therefore, forty-three when he married Elizabeth. Assuming that the latter was nearly of the same age as her first husband, John de Wrottesley, she would be about thirty-five at the same date. William was lord of Tettenhall Regis and the Wergs, a manor adjoining Wrottesley, and a portion of the Wrottesley property was held of him as overlord. [fn.3]

[fn 3] Elizabeth had two sons by her third husband, for by a Fine, levied in 10 Henry V [1423], the manor and advowson of Lutterworth were settled on William de Ferrers and Elizabeth, his wife, and the heirs male of the body of William, and failing such on Thomas de Ferrers, son of William and Elizabeth, and the heirs male of his body, and failing such on John de Ferrers, the brother of Thomas, and the heirs male of his body, and failing such on the right heirs of William. (Leicester Fines.)"
https://archive.org/stream/historyoffamilyo00wrot#page/n7/mode/2up

So, William Ferrers (1372-1445), the 5th Lord of Groby first had two children by his first wife Philippa Clifford: Henry Ferrers (1394-1463) and Margaret Ferrers (1395-1462). Then William Ferrers (1372-1445) had two more sons by his third wife, Elizabeth Standish (b. circa 1381). Elizabeth had first been married to John de Wrottesley who died in 1402 and then to Sir William le Boteler who died at Harfleur in September 1415 during Henry V's invasion of France.

William Ferrers and Elizabeth Standish were married sometime before October 1416 when a writ was issued assigning Elizabeth's dower to William. Therefore, it appears that Thomas Ferrers was likely born perhaps in 1417 and John Ferrers of St. Albans was born perhaps in 1418 or 1419.

Have you looked at the references cited here ?

http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p514.htm#i...

No, I have not seen the Richardson references but I had seen those birth dates for the children. Do you have access to those volumes? The detail and that footnote 3 in the Wrottesley family history appeared convincing to me that Thomas and John were the children of William Ferrers and Elizabeth Standish and, therefore, born after their marriage in 1416. But I am open to arguments going the other way.

Trying to work out the 15th century dates for these John Ferrers is not easy because the brothers Thomas and John Ferrers (both sons of William, 1372-1445) each had sons and grandsons named John. But the descendants of Thomas who were named John were entitled to Tamworth and were MP's from Staffordshire while the descendants of John of St Albans did not have those ties to Staffordshire and Tamworth. Once the Staffordshire John Ferrers entitled to Tamworth are excluded, one is left with the John Ferrers who were Sheriffs and MPs from Wiltshire and that trail leads back to John of St Albans. But rationalizing the birth, marriage and children's birth dates is not easy.

I usually google up the book references. And also, Richardson does peer review on many lines in the group soc.gen.medieval on google groups. I’m not at all convinced attributing all the children to the first wife is correct, which is why I suggest checking for the actual source citations and any disputes.

Thanks for the pointers. I'll do some digging.

Richardson was asked in 2009 whether Thomas Ferrers was the son of William Ferrers and his first wife (Philippa Clifford) or his second wife (Margaret de Montagu). Richardson's response was that because Thomas was 50 plus in 1452, Philippa Clifford must have been his mother. Richardson, however, did not specifically address the birthdate or mother of John.

I am wondering if the 1423 advowson was simply a property settlement to clarify inheritance entitlements of Thomas and John since it seems Elizabeth Standish brought property to the marriage, including dowers from her prior marriages from which she had children. My recollection, in addition, is that one of William Ferrers' marriages (I think to Elizabeth Standish) was not completely kosher according to contemporary standards.

Here is Richardson's response from Google Groups:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/5...

Douglas Richardson

11/1/09

Jim ~
Chronology answers your question.

WIlliam Ferrers, Knt., 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby, vidame of Chartres, was born at the manor house of Hoo, and baptized at Luton, Bedfordshire 25 April 1372. He married (1st) after 10 Oct. 1388 (grant of his marriage) Philippe Clifford, daughter of Roger de Clifford, Knt., 5th Lord Clifford. They had four sons, Henry, Knt., Thomas, Esq., John, and Edmund, and three daughters, Margaret, Elizabeth, and presumably Anne (wife of Nicholas Bowell). His wife, Philippe, was living 4 July 1405.

Thomas Ferrers, Esq., of Hethe and Flecknoe, Warwickshire, Champeyns (in Woodham Ferrers), Essex, Tettenhall and Walton-on-Trent, etc., 2nd son of the above couple, was born about 1392/1402, he being aged 50 and more in 1452. He married before 1418 Elizabeth Freville, daughter of Baldwin Freville, Knt., of Tamworth, Warwickshire. She was born about 1394 (aged 24 in 1418 and 26 in 1420).

If you have a correction for the stirnet database, I encourage you to submit it directly to the owner of this database, Peter Barns-Graham. I've contacted Peter in the past, and he has been very quick to make the requested changes.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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On Oct 31, 2:57 pm, jim...@aol.com wrote:
< Many people have Thomas Ferrers as son of William 5th Baron Ferrers (1372) and Philippe (Philppa) de Clifford (1374), Burkes's Peerage and Complete Peerage list only <one son Henry. No mention of Thomas. Stirnet shows Thomas as son of William Ferrers and his 2nd wife Elizabeth Montagu.
<
< Jim Malone

Stirnet is reachable by google keyword for a glimpse / quick copy / paste beyond their paywall. They do a good pedigree job and always reference sources.

Yes, indeed, there was something church hinky about the Elizabeth Standish marriage. You are on the right track to chase the property. Follow it down a gen or 2. And there should be IPMs.

Thanks for the additional pointers. I will keep digging.

Here is a question for you. Do you have a sense of how old people typically were in the 15th century when they were appointed Sheriff? Or when they were made Members of Parliament? I would assume they were typically beyond their teens or twenties, but that is only my guess without any data or experience to back it up. Perhaps they typically needed to be in their forties or fifties. I'm just looking for a better sense of how the pieces of the puzzle might fit.

Also, I assume that being Sheriff came with an entitlement for income, such as collecting a percentage of fines or of collected taxes.

40s / 50s seems too old as a requirement for member of parliament but as an elected office there would need to be some substantiation for family ties / community ties / personal achievement. So I suspect age depended on family. Very interesting question, I would guess there have been studies of some sort.

Yes, sheriff came with substantial income possibilities.