DNA Integration Superthread

Started by Mike Stangel on Thursday, June 30, 2016
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Good question as to what Geni has access to and what Geni displays (right :) ) I will try to be more detailed here and put worst case hat on: Let's say Geni has access to only what it displays and let's run an example. (akin to running it on summarised data therefore)

I will digress first into proportions.

I currently have over 400 atDNA matches, ranging from my daughter who shares 40-60% but the longest (continuous) segment between us is only +- 5%. However, the next close cousin of mine only shares +-5% but here the longest continuous segment is 1%, a much larger proportion of total shared. (approx 10% vs 20%.)

The continuous proportion as a percentage of shared becomes much larger the more distant the relationship (over all the 100s of my matches, even getting close to 100% (i.e. the only common DNA therefore)) and therefore it is the measure which I believe Geni should target if employing this method. But it comes with a caveat...

So if my daughter and I share continuous 5%, then it means that one of my parents has/had more than 5% continuous DNA "exactly like that" with 100% certainty but 50% certainty until triangulation via children of my parents' brothers and sisters that could or could not be this exact 5% if the children matches to my daughter. As you can see, because the continuous proportion is so small for near relatives, this becomes distraught with difficulties.

However, for the 100s of distant matches where the continuous proportions are large, it becomes more and more certain that the continuous proportion is in fact the small proportion of the actual DNA of an ancestor. Now the problem becomes a bit different, in the sense that if there are more than one set of common ancestors within 8 generations, it is no longer just 50/50 but perhaps even 10%, but with the benefit it is the exact DNA of which ancestor. (With 8 generations the set is 2^8)

So that is why I proposed 4 generations... it gives higher reliability between what exact DNA it could be, and reduces the risk that the DNA is attributed to the wrong pair of ancestors. (Also to consider in future: Over the past 4 generations on earth, an individual having more than one set of 2nd grandparents has become remote, but that was not always the case - I have not factored this in below, effectively it should be 2x reliability :).)

For most of the matches I have in this range (common ancestors 4-5 generations back), where the genealogy part is sound, the longest continuous segment seems to be around 25%+ of the total match.

So getting back to how exactly... lets say X and Y performed atDNA tests and match within range of whatever measure of relatedness is used. If their Geni trees are complete and only part of the OWT, up to 8 generations, then I have some confidence Geni is able to accurately determine the path to their closest common set of ancestors. Geni then performs a check whether this is within 4 generations, and that there are no other path within 4-6 (say) generations. Geni then checks the % of the longest continuous match and adds an atDNA display on both sets of the nearest couple of ancestors each of 40% (the lowest, i.e. we "lose" 20%) times this proportion% times 4 (1/25%) on that common couple and ADDS with graphical display of the path (similar to the graphical display currently for Y-DNA and mtDNA) and for the two distinct unique paths to that set of ancestors propagates this specific indicator.

Now when Z performs an atDNA test, and matches to both X and Y and also only shares this same set of ancestors 4 generations ago, one should of course expect different proportions, however the smallest proportion (length) over X, Y and Z then becomes an even more reliable indicator that this is part of the exact DNA of one of those common set of ancestors and the proportions and reliability should be updated.

And now B performs an atDNA test and does match to X,Y, and Z, but does not share the same set of common ancestors, however, on the fifth generation she does. For me that would clearly show that the atDNA attributed to the ancestors of X, Y and Z's 4th generation parents can therefore be attributed to the 5th generation parents of the ancestor in the 4th generation which also shares B's, and we can therefore remove the 40% penalty applied initially to the calculation, AND get more certainty on the EXACT likely subset of DNA of the 5th generation ancestors... and with more and more testers and common ancestors, suddenly we have an algorithm that should be able to assist users tremendously...

Even though a pilot, I believe there would be numerous secondary benefits just from a genealogical usage (of Geni) perspective as well, a more complete OWT as one benefit, but which I am not discussing here. However through trial and error (with how many generations to go back) I am sure something great can be employed on Geni.

Slowly attempting to digest above.
"For most of the matches I have in this range (common ancestors 4-5 generations back), where the genealogy part is sound, the longest continuous segment seems to be around 25%+ of the total match."
Translates to -
Common ancestors 4-5 generations back = the sibling pair is 3-4 generations back =
Looking at 3rd to 4th cousins - yes??

And for them, you are saying, then for those
"where the genealogy part is sound, the longest continuous segment seems to be around 25%+ of the total match"
Means
If they share 100 cM, longest is around 25 cM
If they share 40 cM, longest is around 10 cM
Etc.

I wonder to what extent that is actually true for people?

Looking just at my 3rd Cousins, first number total cM shared, 2nd number longest segment
A partial list is:
1 not matching at all plus others of
40 / 14 --- 139 / 28 -- 78 / 48 -- 86 / 25 -- 75 / 20 -- 186 / 39 -- 166 / 34

So you look at the profiles that go with one of those,sets, you see their closest common ancestor couple on Geni - and then what??

Private User -

You may find these Tables relevant: https://isogg.org/wiki/Cousin_statistics
Someplace I saw figures for how likely it would be that three 4th cousins shared how much DNA in the same location, etc.-- ie triangulation for how much -- if I manage to find, I will post that as well.
As I recall, for further out than third cousins, it is ridiculously discouraging.

Hmmm...those tables go far to explain why a DNA novice would *wrongly* eliminate Y-DNA male-line relatives who did not share sufficient autosomal DNA.

We have at least one person on Geni who believes, or purports to believe, that Y-DNA can only be valid *if* ancestral DNA can be analyzed from *each and every* male ancestor in the line(s). Yet *the same* person claims to believe that the *smallest* matches of autosomal DNA are "proof positive" of direct (male) descent. (But don't try to tell them they are wrong - they won't listen, they will shout you down, and you *will* be sorry!)

Only about half of all 4th cousins share DNA.
Which is why it is good for more siblings to test.
I have one aunt left on each side.
One won’t test because her children are against it.
The other won’t because her brother “already did.”
:/
As for Y DNA, my nephew matches my third cousin in the Y study but doesn’t show as a DNA match at 23&me. For comparisons between them, I am able to see the SNP they share on Gedmatch when I lower the cM.
I see this for several same surname male cousins who match me at 23&me but do not match each other with autosomal. And yet they share the same haplotype.

Help-- I added to an existing Discussion here after getting a message in my inbox regarding Nicholas Cain
https://www.geni.com/discussions/259469?msg=1629888 and the Cain project at Family Tree DNA
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cain-Caine?iframe=yresults

I'm trying to add FTDNA results to a geni profile, but the profile doesn't have a TAB named DNA for me to go to. What is the reason for this? Private is the profile.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Moshe

Do you see DNA Tabs on your profile and on other Profiles you manage?
Is the person over age 13?
Is he living?

Private User https://www.geni.com/dna-tests/terms_of_use - "The DNA Services are not available to residents of Israel ("Restricted Locations")." Maybe this is the case? I myself, for instance, can see DNA tab on that profile

Thanks Private User that worked!

Y DNA attached to profile is not being added to the male generations above. Why?:
Robert Lee Ratliff Y is not showing on his father Private
These are the same line as Whooping Boy Ratliff

Cynthia Curtis, A183502, US7875087, as I can see, all three profiles have Y-DNA now. Maybe it took some time to propagate?

Private User could be! But I also did some merging for the Geni user
Thank you for looking!

I have to ask...I'm just curious...has anyone else gone to the FTDNA website to add my mtDNA results to their Geni profile only to find their entire mtDNA dashboard and haplogroup gone??? The order that I purchased the test in the first place disappeared as well. I downloaded my results and had a copy on my phone of the raw data.The info in my computer is lost because it suddenly crashed about 3 weeks ago and I don't have am external back up. So I have one record of proof....I'm devastated. I just wanted to see if anyone else had the same problem without reading all 1364 posts.

Constance Derosier Carter - I have been pretty compulsive about reading the posts, and do not believe I ever saw anything like that.

One of my relatives did experience something analogous with Family Finder. The problem turned out to be, he had inadvertently created a second Kit, and was logging on to a Kit that was not associated with his results.

Did you have both Family Finder and mtDNA results?
Or did you just have mtDNA results?

Constance Derosier Carter - I see Geni shows you with at and mtDNA - so is it all solved?

I figured it out. In the process of my computer crashing, there had been a password change that I had forgotten about. For some reason, FTDNA had logged me in under an old password prior to my mtDNA testing! it was the weirdest the thing. when I tried a different password for ha-has, lo and behold everything was there...Thank God!

I should say FTDNA allowed me to sign in under an old password...that makes much ore sense!

Scary for a little while, but very glad all is okay.

Still not able to upload from data from Ancestry to profile despite the misleading instructions.
Seems only FTDNA is accepted.

Will Geni fix this soon?

Can you give a link to instructions you are referring to?
I thought all idea that would ever be possible went away years ago.

You cannot upload any DNA to Geni. You can link to an FTDNA kit.

You can use your results at Ancestry to get FTDNA results - and it is free to do that.

Caroline Baskin Reid has Y DNA attached to her profile. Can a curator help?

Please see https://www.geni.com/discussions/269826?msg=1653939 regarding need assistance to correct Y DNA propagation to different lines of unrelated COMPTON including patriot and gentleman line.

Also, the above comment (re Caroline's Y DNA) is still unaddressed. Females should not have their male relative's Y DNA attached to their own Geni profiles.

Cynthia Curtis, A183502, US7875087 - curators don’t monitor this discussion.

Re: https://www.geni.com/discussions/157595?msg=1650884

Caroline Baskin Reid is a geni member and “touching” her profile is out of scope of curator permissions without her explicit authorization - and even then, I for one would have no idea how to fix her wrongly attached Y DNA. Open a ticket with geni support via the help platform: https://www.geni.com/sso/zendesk/login?return_to=https%3A%2F%2Fhelp.geni.com

Re: https://www.geni.com/discussions/157595?msg=1653942 & https://www.geni.com/discussions/269826?msg=1652864

There is no Y DNA upload to address on the profiles linked.

At that discussion, the Member should link explicitly to the actions requested of curators / pros, and link explicitly to the FT DNA platform (as you tried but were unable to view.)

Erica Howton thank you for the response.
Not asking for anyone to disconnect her Y DNA but for someone to help her to do it. It should be a given that any Geni user should NOT attach someone else's DNA to a profile of anyone other than their own.

Erica Howton
Re https://www.geni.com/discussions/269826?msg=1652864, this was resolved thankfully!
See https://www.geni.com/discussions/269826?msg=1654406
Thank you so much for all the help!
It matters that the Y DNA is where it belongs<3

... any Geni user attaching DNA should:
a) only attach DNA to the profile of the person the DNA comes from
b) only attach DNA after having clear and informed consent from the person the DNA belongs to
I've never tried anything other than attaching DNA to my own profile....

Harald Tveit Alvestrand thank you.
That is much more clear than what I wrote.

I have personally attached DNA to my Geni profile and that of my husband's, his mother's,
my sister's, my uncle's and my mother's. Helped several of my friends.
It is so important to have permission and to attach it to the correct profile.

Not my mother's--- sorry... my nephew's.

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