Severing the Horowitz connection to Spain

Dear Randy,
Who are "we"?

But anyhow many German jews descend from the Benveniste family from Spain, including me.

What exactly does this mean? How are you specifically "severing ties?" Our family has connections to both Horowitz and Benveniste through different, sometimes intersecting lines, as generations of rabbis and other Torah scholars married the descendants of different lines of rabbis.

There does not appear to be any real support for the late 19th century claim that the Horowitz family descends from Benveniste. The same is probably true for Epstein. If you have any support for these claims, please let me know. See the article at http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2016/03/does-the-horowitz-family-from...

I think YDNA results do prove that. You might want to consult Mr. Meir Gover, https://sites.google.com/site/levitedna/home

To kill many family traditions or to create "new" ones should take more than an article in Avotaynuonline. No disrespect to the Journal and its important mission or to its editorial board.

There is no YDNA results that support the link between Horowitz and Iberian Jewry.

Just because people want it to be true, doesn't mean that it is. This family "tradition" first appeared in the vaguest form after 1880, and is nowhere mentioned in any of the earlier Yichus of the Horowitz family. It is a completely unbelievable late invention. Oral traditions don't survive very long unless they are connected to a particular practice. Is there anything that the Horowitz families do that connects them to Spain, any Sephardic traditions? None that I have ever heard of. Let the people who want to prove the connection come up with proof first. If we merely continue to accept the invented tradition, as people have been doing for the past 100 years since it was first invented, then no one will ever really look into it.

Leon is correct also about the dna evidence. It gives no proof of any connection between the Horowitz and Spain or the Benveniste family. See fn 86 of this article http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2016/03/y-dna-genetic-signature-ethni...

"In a dissenting view, Wim Penninx sees no strong argument for the Iberian ethnic origin of the Epstein-Horowitz line. He points out that Horowitz is probably part of the R1a haplogroup, which has no indication of Iberian lines as of yet. He also points out that the Epstein surname is present in many Y-DNA branches, and that it is clear that the name was given without reference to a single paternal line."

It is time for the Horowitz researchers to come up with some serious evidence, or give up this unbelievable legend.

Dear Randy,
If not from Spain/Iberia, from where did the Horowitz family come to Europe? what do you think Randy, and how are you supported for whatever you think about their sources?

Mr. Schoenberg, I am not disagreeing with the article or your intention, but I would like some clarity about your statement that "we have severed the connection?" Is there a specific ancestor who you have deleted?

Private User, cutting a connection does NOT typically involve deleting ancestors. It simply means that a connection between two profiles is removed, i.e. we no longer considered A to be son of B. Both A & B remain in the tree, In many such cases where there is a clear tradition of this link, a comment explaining this, with a reference to the two profiles is put in the 'About Me' sections of the profiles.

Rabbi Joseph HaLevi has been disconnected from Rabbi Benvenisti ben Yossef Ha'Levi but you will still find the reference in the Overview:About section on each profile so you can go easily from one to the other.

And I have no idea where Josef Horovice came from, but most likely he was from that area. People didn't usually move very far in those days. Of course, there are exceptions. Maimonides traveled (but not to Ashkenaz). Rashi did not. There are references to an Iberian Jewish merchant visiting a fair in Prague in 970, so it wasn't unheard of. http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Ibrahim_ibn_Yaqub The problem with the story about the Horowitz family is that it first appears only after 1880, when there was a raging fad to invent connections to Spain (Herzl also made one for himself). Because the connection is made in the most vague way, initially, and quickly elaborated by others, it is simply not believable. The legend of Spanish descent is not mentioned in any earlier, detailed yichusim of the Horowitz family that we have found.

I'd be glad to be proven wrong, as I also descend from this family. But I find it very telling that not a single one of the many Horowitz genealogists has come up with a shred of evidence that supports this very recent legend. By severing the connection and challenging people to come up with some proof, we can test my hypothesis. But it does not look like there will be anything produced to establish that the Horowitz family is descended directly from the Benveniste family, as has been alleged. I am not holding my breath.

Interestingly, there is a story that in 1543 Josel of Rosheim tried to mediate a dispute between the Jews of Horovice and Prague. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josel_of_Rosheim

P.S. The legend of the Epstein family's descent from the Benvenistes seems to be of similarly recent vintage and that unsupported connection may soon be cut as well.

The DNA evidence for this family will be of interest, when and if it is researched.

I searched in Google: horowitz dna.
The first result has 94 members.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. With Brexit the EU passports from Spain or Portugal are not quite as worthwhile, anyway! Thanks for all the hard work, Randy Schoenberg!

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Benveniste_and_Sons/default.as...

As news of this is filtering out to other descndents who have been "severed" and have seen their ancestor list cut from 5,0000 to 500 with no prior agreement (while Geni still facetiously keeps a Master Profile for Lucifer), i think it is only reasonable to state that all affected members should have been contacted and a time set for the data to be copied.

Randy's post above is the first clue i have seen as to where the cut took place. This is too long after the fact to have been a codial and gracious gesture to those us us who joined Geni, uploaded our work, pictures, and documents in good faith and now see that this was done without pre-planning for our retreival of the data to which we contributed in many ways.

Please consider, if you intend to decimate our trees, that you should have announced this to all affected members first and then allowed us a grace period during which to make our own working copies of the data.

We paid fees to be here to access the data. There is no way we can reconstruct the work, since it was collectively sourced, but i, for one, would like to continue my own work in my own way, without reference to your opinions.

Thank you for your consideration.

I agree with Yigal Burstein -- a change this large, affecting potentially thousands of Geni members, should have been based on more than an opinion in an article in one online source.

Thanks for your concern. When you have some evidence of the ancestry of the Horowitz family in Prague, please let us all know.

Speaking of avotaynuonline, i agree with this:

"Many of us worry about surrendering even a tiny bit of control over our work. Yes, it is our work, not the work of some collective. [Adam] Brown’s phrase [that Geni is] 'overseen by a team… deputized as "curators" who roam the Geni tree like park rangers' features words that sound authoritarian. And these folks are going to 'ensure the integrity and accuracy' of my work? I would rather not. In the same vein, [E. Randol] Schoenberg writes, 'Not only can individuals find the mistakes, they can also fix them—for everyone.' No, please don’t. If someone shows me an error—whether a typo or real content—tell me and I will fix it myself. I have been doing that for years. I can adjudicate my own issues, thank you. This is not just my attitude. Recently, a similar topic on one of the professional genealogists’ discussion groups showed that many others feel the same way."

And this:

"The realm of errors includes more than just fixing them. Here [is an] example[.] My father told me that his grandfather, whom he knew only as a young child, had an uncle named Selig Pikholz. None of the others in my father’s generation knew that bit of information, and we have found no documentation other than the similar names of their children. Knowing this fact enabled me to make significant progress in my family research. I take my work seriously and consider myself to be an accomplished genealogy researcher. By what right would any 'deputized curator' tell me that this is not good enough for some institutional 'integrity?' Whether or not some curator has yet done so, the very fact that they claim the authority to do so is sufficient cause for concern. Somewhere, some time, some roving park ranger may decide to mix in such things. Or some disgruntled family member will issue a challenge just because he can. Brown himself writes, 'Family stories may turn out to be fabrications.' How do we know that Brown will not put Uncle Selig into that category?"

And this: "Schoenberg addresses the issue of turning everything over to Geni to a collaborative project with the not entirely reassuring 'Thus far, we do not see much risk of any of the major collaborative tree projects disappearing.' The words 'Thus far,' 'much' and 'major' are not reassuring."

-- Israel Pickholtz on "Concerns About “Collaborative Genealogy” Websites" at http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2015/02/concerns-about-geni-and-other...

That third paragraph's unreassuring note -- "Thus far, we do not see much risk of any of the major collaborative tree projects disappearing" was sounded in 2013 and Israel Pickholtz responded to its implied threat in 2015. This year the Rubicon was crossed. Down with the Horowitz tree! Onward Park Rangers!

There should be a review committee for decisions like this so that they don't rest with one individual. There should also be protocols for how this type of situation is handled so that those who are affected are informed in a timely manner.

While this is not a scientific issue it seems to me that the argument that the Horowitz family are not descended from the Benvenisti family can neither be proven nor disproven. The status quo should stand until such time as it can be definitively disproven.

Thank you, Rhea. I agree, and these are exactly the points that i have been trying to make. No one individual -- especially one who is not the Master Profile's curator --- should be able to make a change like this without review. And those affected by such a massive change (having their ancestry cut from 5,000 to 500 is massive) should be notified in advance with a message via the system's messaging system.

Randy, as Rhea so eloquently put it, "the argument that the Horowitz family are not descended from the Benvenisti family can neither be proven nor disproven. The status quo should stand until such time as it can be definitively disproven."

And as Geni curator Yigal Burstein wrote earlier this year:

"Some of the sources are more reliable than others. However we cannot exclude the possibilities that some family chains/links are "by tradition" more than proven - after all it is over one thousand years ago and mostly only the "males" lineages were recorded. But do we really care about its 100% accuracy?"

Yigal Burstein touches on a central issue here:

If we "really care about [...] 100% accuracy," why do we include the Bible as a genealogy source?

So far, on another discussion thread, titled "More real, less illusion," the best i could raise in response to the question was a series of self-justifications that i would paraphrase as, "We make judgement calls at Geni and we have decided that establishing and maintaining genealogical profiles for Lucifer the fallen angel and Bhagawan Vishnu Narayan the Hindu creator-god meets our standards for what is 'real' and verifiable, while the Horowitz family having a connection to Spain does not do so."
I interpre this to mean that Geni is a multi-payer game, with rules, and the rule-set is in the hands of a game-designers who do not allow their irrational decisions to be questioned.

This does not mean that i intend to quit the game, but i realize that it is a rigged game, and that under its pseudo-collaborative veneer, it is run by a group of game-masters whose agendas will always be given preference.

I am moving Meir Gover's comments on the profile to this discussion:

Meir G. Gover mggover@gmail.com 02/2017: See: https://www.academia.edu/28113694/STUDY_OF_PATERNAL_LINEAGES_AMONG_... Joseph Halevi moved from Girona, Catalonia to Horovice Bohemia in C1440 AD. His Identifying Y chromosome STR Alleles: 104-109/111 of the Ashkenazi Levite Modal as defined 2012 by Prof. Anatole Klyosov. Identifying SNPs: R1a-YP265, R1a-YP268. The unique Halevi Horowitz Y Chromosome SNP Line is: R1a-Y2619, Y2630, Y2744, YP266, YP265, YP268. The 3rd Bostoner Rebbe Meir Alter Halevi Horowitz (born March 1946) unique identifying SNPs: YP5303, YP5304, YP5305 as per his FTDNA saliva test BiGY Next Generation Sequencing.

Note: Severing Joseph HALEVI HOROWITZ PROGENITOR from his then-father Rabbi Benvenisti ben Josef Ha'Levi was an upsetting action since many other family trees do not agree with these apparent findings and support the connection to the Benvenisti ben Josef Ha'Levi of Barcelona.

Berdichevsky-Sokolka Families Tree - Yosef-Horvitz-Family [link is broken; 404 error as of 7/20/16 -- cat yronwode]

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https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/משפחת_הורוביץ

שורשים קדמונים

יש המייחסים את שורשי המשפחה להימן המשורר בן יואל בן שמואל המוזכר בספר דברי הימים (א' פרק ו' פסוק י"ח). מסורת ברורה בהרבה, דור אחר דור, מתועדת במגילות ייחוס עתיקות‏‏, ומגיעה עד לבני משפחת הלוי בנבנשתי מנרבון ולוניל אשר בדרום צרפת וגירונה בצפון ספרד במאה ה-11. במאה ה-12 נולד רבי זרחיה הלוי הידוע בספרו ספר המאור, חיבור על דברי הרי"ף. צאצאיו המשיכו לגור באזור דרום צרפת וגירונה, ושמרו על קשר עם חכמי פרובנס וגירונה. עקבות המשפחה מצוין בערים נרבון, מונפלייה ולוניל בפרובנס וגירונה בצפון ספרד. בשנת 1391 עבר ר' יוסף הלוי מגירונה לאזור בוהמיה, (כיום צ'כיה) וזאת עקב טבח גדול ביהודי גירונה בשנה זו. הבעל שם טוב אמר שמשפחת הורוביץ היא אחת משלוש משפחות נקיות (כלומר מיוחסות) דור אחר דור, כמובא בספר "שמן הטוב".

אנציקלופדיה לחכמי גליציה מאת מאיר וונדר, כרך ב'‏
Ancient Roots of the Horowitz family

Some attribute the roots of the family to Heyman the poet, son of Joel son of Samuel mentioned in the Book of Chronicles (A, 6.18) . A much clearer tradition, is documented in ancient family genealogy scrolls, and reaches up to the Levi Benvenisti family of Narbonne and Lunel in the south of France and Girona in northern Spain in the 11th century. Rabbi Zerahiah Halevi "Baal Hamaor" known for his book "Sefer Hamaor" (book of light), that consistently and critically objects to the Rif's views, His descendants continued to live in the South of France and Girona, and maintained contacts with scholars of Provence and Girona. Family members can be traced in the cities of Narbonne, Montpellier and Lunel in Provence and Girona in northern Spain. In 1391, Rabbi Yosef HaLevi of Gerona moved to the region of Bohemia (now Czech Republic), due to the great massacre the Jews of Girona that year. The Baal Shem Tov named the Horowitz family as one of three "clean families" (ie of distinguished lineage), generation after generation , as set out in "Shemen Hatov".

Encyclopedia of Scholars of Galicia, by Meir Wonder , Volume II

_________________________________________________________________________________________ כתובות בית העלמין היהודי בפראג- עמוד 112

Progenitor of the Halevi Horowitz Rabbinical Line. Ashkenazi Levites Modal's 102-109/111 STRs. SNP Lineage as per FTDNA BigY Next Generation Sequencing: R1a0Y2619, Y2630, Y2744, YP266, YP264, YP265, YP268. The Halevi Horowitz defining subcluster Terminal SNP is R1a-YP268.