Arriantjie (Gabrielsz) Van Cathrijn, SM - Not daughter of Catharina van Malabar?

J P Weyers

11/25/2021 at 2:04 AM

But here she is , still the full daughter of Cornelis Claas / Kees de Boer
Not his stepdaughter

Sharon Doubell C

11/25/2021 at 4:06 AM

Might be because I didn't have the time to disconnect from both parents, then reconnect to only one - and fiddle with trying to make her step and biological to two people who were married....and then I forgot :-/

J P Weyers

11/25/2021 at 4:14 AM

4 Hail Mary's
6 Our Fathers
and no wine for a week !

Thx yet again for all your help Sharon .

Sharon Doubell C

11/25/2021 at 4:19 AM

:-)

I just re-tried. Geni doesn't have a way to show coupled parents where the father is adoptive and the mother is biological, unless I leave two Adriaantjes on the tree - which will sooner or later be merged together anyway.

Hence the Curator Note trying to show this

J P Weyers

11/25/2021 at 4:46 AM

Have to create a partner for her mother first .
Should I try ?

Whom shall we make her father, just unknown ?

J P Weyers

11/25/2021 at 4:57 AM

that ok ?
--------------------------------------

Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM/Prog is your 7th great grandmother.

You

→

Elizabeth Jacobs
your mother
→
Mike Jacobs
her father
→
Hendrik Johannes Jacobs
his father
→
Petrus Casparus Jacobs
his father
→
Johanna Adriana Jacobs (Bronkhorst), c5d11
his mother
→
Hendrik Lambertus Bronkhorst, b6c5
her father
→
Jan (Johann) Bronkhorst
his father
→
Geertruyd Boshouwer, b6 SM/PROG
his mother
→
Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM/Prog
her mother

Sharon Doubell C

11/25/2021 at 11:08 PM

That is okay, although it severs the step-parent relationship to Kees de Boer. But if in CN - then maybe that's fine :-)

J P Weyers

11/25/2021 at 11:24 PM

Saw on some profiles,adoptive and real parents in relationships.
How is it done ?
Just had another pleegdogter but no parents known so far just her foster parents

Sharon Doubell C

11/26/2021 at 12:06 AM

Send me the link.

The difficulty isn't having a set of adoptive parents and a set of biological parents - that's easily done:

It's having an adoptive parent married to a biological parent if you want both cases to show on the one child's profile.

As far as I can see, that's impossible on Geni.

J P Weyers

11/26/2021 at 12:51 AM

Like you said when one is real parent then problem

Private User

3/30/2023 at 2:02 AM

https://www.geni.com/discussions/157268?msg=1098257

The current tests and Geni profiles again suggest that Cornelia had a different mother (Catharina van Malabar) than the children born after the marriage in 1676 (Catharina van Batavia, a different woman?)

There are two T2b1 testers for Cornelia Pyl, while all the later children had multiple U2c1 testers... I used this view:

https://www.geni.com/list/dna_to?focus_id=6000000029509476327&d...

Sharon Doubell Private User

However, still to check the T2b1 lines...

Private User

3/30/2023 at 2:08 AM

sorry only one T2b1 tester, easier to check (and correct) - but if not correct, still means we have no tester for Cornelia Claasz, SM

Sharon Doubell C

3/30/2023 at 7:13 AM

Cornelia Claasz, SM has a U2c1 tester (which is the same mtDNA as all her siblings, by what you're saying) and a T2b1 tester. Given the above, it is more likely that the T2b1 tester's line is wrong, than that Cornelia is different to her siblings, isn't it? Or am I missing something? Quite possible :-/

Sharon Doubell C

3/30/2023 at 7:28 AM

I think I am not reading the two DNA attributes on Cornelia carefully enough:

From Catharina (Catrijn) van Malabar, SM/PROG U2c1:

Private T2b1 descends through Cornelia Claasz, SM
Jan Stephanus van Heerden, (Fanie) y R-FGC39522 mt U2c1 U2c1 descends through Maria Willemse, SM
Private U2c1 descends through Maria Willemse, SM
Hanri Conradie U2c1 descends through Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM
Jeffrey Patrick Leader U2c1 descends through Adriaantje Gabrielsz, SM

Sharon Doubell C

3/30/2023 at 7:50 AM

I uploaded Cornelia Claasz, SM 1674 Baptism doc, that reads

Den 18 November een dochtertje van Cornels Claasz en Catharina van Malbaar gedoopte swartinne wiert genaamt Cornelia South Africa, Cape Province, Cape Town, Nederduitse Gereformeerde Kerk, church administrative

Nothing about it suggests she wasn't both of their biolical daughter.

Private User

3/30/2023 at 8:06 AM

Interesting way of seeing it like that, I will try and re-explain by using "up"- (to) and "down"-lines (from) :)

Unfortunately the T2b1 "up"-line is not incorrect IMO and is sourced, and although mtDNA descends - here the "testing kits" do not, so we cannot say that U2c1 up-lines "from" Cornelia "to" Catharina van Malabar, because there is only one T2b1 kit in the up-line "to" Cornelia. As stated by Ian years ago (in the message I copied), she was baptised and therefore born many years before Cornelis married the Catharina for who we have plenty of U2c1 "up"-lines.

However, I wrote today when I mistakenly thought there were two test kit "up"-lines, which made the statement significantly stronger, and then realised if the one testing kit is not in this "up"-line we have no "up"-lines to Cornelia. So either way we have a problem.

Sharon Doubell C

3/30/2023 at 10:00 AM

Okay I get it. I also got surprised by the 2 kits attached to her and not her siblings. Had to look closer.

Yes, I think we should walk Schoeman's line and check the documentation first.

Sharon Doubell C

3/30/2023 at 10:09 AM

It would be surprising if any of the children's mtDNA was different - and Cornelia is in the middle - so especially not her.

Private User

3/30/2023 at 11:40 PM

If Cornelia was described as a 'swartinne' at her baptism, then it would be most surprising for her to have had the European haplo T2b1.
Even if Schoeman's paper line has no errors, there is more than likely a concealed adoption/NPE somewhere below Cornelia.

Private User

3/30/2023 at 11:44 PM

Yes, the only T2b1 mtDNA currently here all goes to

Marie le Fébre SM/PROG

Sharon Doubell C

3/30/2023 at 11:56 PM

Private User

3/30/2023 at 11:58 PM

Christina Susanna Schoeman (mtDNA grandmother)

Helena Dorothea Van Der Westhuizen (her mother) - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99XR-DCWF?i=1&... (DN shows daugter above as child no 3)

Anna Johanna Maria van der Westhuizen (her mother as shown on her DN), which is daughter no 2 of father who was only married once - his DN: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQ8-HSZC-D?i=131&... with marriage record to

Aletta Elisabeth Magdalena Els - marriage record shows her mother as giving consent: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-4SJQ-1?cc=282...

Anna Johanna Maria Els (formerly Delport), b3c12 - on this Geni profile multiple sources, which brings us to her mother:

Anna Johanna Maria de Lange - of which I would like to make the following comments:

1. The Curator note must be wrong, as the Anna Elizabeth whom married Marneweck and Olivier was born in the 1800s not in 1760

2. However I think the profile itself is correct, although little primary sources.

3. From here upwards I hope someone can help... :)

Private User

3/31/2023 at 12:36 AM

Ah, I think I found it...

Jan Hendrik Oosthuizen

his son c1, marries Anna Maria COETZER on 1759, and Anna Maria is the mother of Anna Johanna Maria... with COETZER witnesses,

=> I think the scribe made a mistake with putting BOTHA instead of COETZER as the mother's birth surname, and as result:

Anna Johanna Maria de Lange is currently listed as the daughter of her grandfather and grandmother...

I think her parents were:

Johannes Oosthuizen and mother

Maria Anna Coetzer

which is T2b1 - Can I make this move?

Private User

3/31/2023 at 12:42 AM

I moved her but the relationship with BOTHA and OOSTHUIZEN is locked. Could Curator please help to make here parents Johannes Oosthuizen b1c1 and Maria Anna Coetzer only?

Private User

3/31/2023 at 12:52 AM

In fact,

Jan Hendrik Oosthuizen

and his wife

Anna Sophia Oosthuysen

are the first witnesses at her birth = could not have been the parents :)

Private User

3/31/2023 at 12:54 AM

and her father on her baptism record here (3rd entry) is shown as Jan/Johannes "jonge" i.e. the son of Jan/Johannes :)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DZN4-W1V?i=21&...

Sharon Doubell C

3/31/2023 at 1:27 AM

Thank you. Removed CN on Anna Johanna Oosthuizen

Sharon Doubell C

3/31/2023 at 1:29 AM

Anna Johanna Maria de Lange isn't locked. Am I looking at the correct profile?

Sharon Doubell C

3/31/2023 at 1:32 AM

She presently has these parents: Daughter of Johannes Oosthuizen; Jan Hendrik Oosthuizen; Anna Sophia Botha Oosthuysen and Maria Anna Coetzer,

I've removed the relationship to Jan Hendrik Oosthuizen; Anna Sophia Botha Oosthuysen , and you're right - that was locked - must have been a lock on one of their profiles.

Check now.

Private User

3/31/2023 at 1:35 AM

Yes, thank you Sharon correct now.

Arriantjie (Gabrielsz) Van Cathrijn, SM - Not daughter of Catharina van Malabar?

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