Thoron Håkonsdatter Hvite - What about her father?

Started by Private User on Tuesday, May 31, 2016
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Per the Curator Note from Harald Tveit Alvestrand (1/27/2016):

"Det fins ingen beviser for at hun var datter av Haakon den gamle. (Haakon IV Haakonson)

There are no evidence that she was daughter of Haakon the Old (Haakon IV Haakonson).

Do not make him as her father!!!"

Why then is he still listed as her father. Is there some evidence to back this up? If not, the link should be removed, right?

Please discuss.

May Alta made that change, many be she have some evidence?
If not that connection should be cut again.

Jeg synes det er flott at du tar opp dette og håper at det kommer et svar. Ellers blir det lett feil i slektstrærne.

I followed a line I found here on Geni. I hope I doesn't loose the connection to her parents. When we're this back far there will always be hard to prove all lines.

May Alta the normal thing to in our genealogy is that when it is not possible to prove a line, then the line stop there. Any further ancestry is then only speculation and shouldn't be reflected in our tree. The speculation can be mentioned in the persons biography section, but must then be clearly marked as speculation or working theory.

If you're not able to prove the connection to the parents, the connection shouldn't be in the tree.

It's possible to give a person other parents (NN) and choose them in your tree. And if you look up Thoron and her parents I'm not the administrator of any this pages.

May, on Geni it's not my tree or your tree, but our tree. And we try to be as accurate as possile and truthful the the sources we use.

No, it's not possible to give a person other parents (NN) and choose them, because then we will get a parent-conflict that someone will merge pretty soon.

Yes, you are infact an administrator of Håkon IV, king of Norway who is not the father of nn Kone til Toralde Gunnarsdatter Hvit as the curatornotice mentions.

I also see that you are adding profiles as far back as the 2nd Century AD. That is not necessary for you to do. They are already a part of our common tree on Geni, and all you have to do is add profiles up to you get a link to our common tree, and then you will have the rest of the tree already done for you. There is no need to add persons that already exists in our tree.

So, please, stop adding persons to our common historical tree when they already are present in it.

I will answer in norwegian. Jeg har pro abonnement her, men når jeg legger inn person så blir jeg ikke gjort oppmerksom på at profilen allerede eksisterer. Men jeg prøver å være flittig med å slå sammen når jeg oppdager duplikater. Dersom noen kan slette forbindelsen, så er det flott. Jeg har bare vært bruker av geni en måneds tid, og skjønner ikke alt dessverre.

Jeg kan ikke se at det er i strid med genis reglement å følge slekt som ikke kan dokumenteres skikkelig. Siden jeg har slått sammen de folka jeg har lagt til finner jeg ikke linken til siden som la opp til denne grenen fra Thoron. Dersom jeg har brutt retningslinjene her inne ber jeg om det bli henvist til hvilken paragraf dette gjelder.
Mvh

Thank you for the discussion and for removing the link until (and unless) some evidence is presented.

I agree 100% with Remi that "And we try to be as accurate as possile and truthful the the sources we use."

Finding a connection is no good if it is not correct!

May, jeg vil anbefale at du søker etter personen du vil legge til før du legger han/hun til Geni. Spesielt dersom personen levde før 1800, for da er det stor sannsynlighet for at personen allerede er lagt ut på Geni av en annen bruker. Søkefunksjonen finner du her: https://www.geni.com/search/advanced

Dette har ikke noe med Genis reglement, men heller retningslinjer for hvordan vi som slektsforskere bør utføre vår slektsforskning. Jeg går ut fra at ditt mål med slektsforskningen er å finne ut hvem dine aner var og hva de holdte på med, og kanskje mer om deres etterkommere i tillegg til din egen linje. Jeg går også ut fra at du ønsker et så korrekt anetre som mulig og ikke et slektstre bestående av mye fantasier.

Så metoden vi arbeider etter i slektsforskningen vår er å finne kilder som bekrefter relasjonene mellom personene. Dette gjør vi ved først og fremst å lete i primære kilder, altså kilder som er skrevet så nær hendelsen i tid som mulig. Dette gjelder f.eks. kirkebøker, skifteprotokoller, pantebøker, rettsprotokoller o.l., som du finner på Digitalarkivet. Vi kan også bruke sekundærkilder som bygdebøker, slektsbøker o.l., men opplysningene i disse bør, om mulig, verifiseres i de primære kildene.

Når du kommer inn på 1600-tallet og ennå tidligere, så blir kildegrunnlaget veldig tynt, og det er vanskelig å finne primære kilder. Dette er også årsaken til at de aller fleste anelinjene våre stopper på 1600-tallet. Vi må komme oss inn på enten kongelige, adelige, presteskapet eller de med viktige stillinger i samfunnet for i det hele tatt å ha noen sjanse på å finne gode kilder på personer som levde før 1600. Og finner vi ikke gode nok kilder, så stopper vi slektsforskere linjene vår der, inntil vi finner kilder som er nok til å stole på.

Dette skal så klart ikke være til hinder for å notere gode historier og segner om personene, og mulig avstamning de kan ha, men det skal noteres i biografien og ikke kobles som relasjoner i databasen eller treet vårt.

Jeg går ut fra at du har som mål å få et korrekt slektstre du kan vise fram til slekten, og ikke et som har som mål å vise slektskap til kongelige/adelige, Harald Hårfagre (som ingen kan bevise noe slektskap til), Jesus (som har samme problem) eller at målet skal være å komme lengst mulig tilbake i tid. Alle disse målene er noe vi slektsforskere aldri har, vi har kun som mål å få et så korrekt slektstre som mulig, helst der de fleste relasjoner mellom personer kan finnes i primære eller gode sekundære kilder, og der fantasier og ubeviste teorier er utelatt.

Det er retningslinjene som er gjeldende innen slektsforskningen. Det er også veldig lurt å notere kilden til alle opplysningene du finner, slik at du kan finne igjen hvor den opplysningen stammer fra. Da slipper du problemet med at du ikke finner linken til hvor opplysningene dine kommer fra.

Du bør lese dette: https://www.geni.com/projects/Introduksjon-til-Geni-com-norsk/3288

Samtidig så vil jeg si at vi er en del norske personer som har mye slektsforskningskunnskap her på Geni, bl.a. meg selv med over 30 års erfaring og vitnemål fra Norges eneste utdannelse innen slektsforskning på høyskole/universitetsnivå uten å gå veien via historiefagene. Så du kan bare spørre om hjelp til en av oss om det er noe du lurer på.

Å legge til slekt på Geni-treet som ikke kan dokumenteres skikkelig er ikke i strid med Genis reglement, men det er i strid med retningslinjene for hvordan slektsforskning skal utføres, og jeg regner med at du har lyst til å bli sett på som en god slektsforsker etter hvert og ikke en som bare legger til fantasier og eventyr.

Lykke til med slektsforskningen din. Du har nå startet en livslang hobby som du aldri kommer til å bli ferdig med. :-)

May Alta är dock inte ensam om att vara duktig, här har en Private User
varit i farten och skapat redan existerande profiler långt bak i tiden, vad sägs om dessa t.ex?

Guttorm Torbjörnsson

Guttorm Torbjörnsson

Redan när deras päron lades till så må hon väl ha upptäckt syskon med likadana namn längs vägen, nejdå, tillråga på eländet så orkar jag inte fortsätta slå dem samman.

https://www.geni.com/people/Torunn-Håkonsdatter/6000000013688719037

This person is already listed as a daughter of King Haakon IV. Tell me, isn't it the same person as the one that should NOT be listed as his daughter?
nn Kone til Toralde Gunnarsdatter Hvit ?

Confused...

One is the wife of Thorald Gunnarsen Hvite

The other is the wife of Thorald Gunnarsen Hvite

These are "old" profiles, put on geni in 2008 and 2010.
Could it be that a big clean up is needed in these lines?

Yes, things are rather messy (probably inevitable with such a project). It is a shame that so many entries are created without including any documentation.

Thankfully folks like Remi are here to help us.

When it comes to most noble families, they already have a well presented genealogy and all we have to do is follow the line, that should not be hard or end up in conflicts. Unfortunately, in a book there's no problem with the lineage, laid card lies where it is, no one can change it.

In some cases they do not have date of births or death in those pedigrees, but as long as they are sequenced in a particular order, it doesn't matter, IN THE BOOK!

BUT! Here on Geni, where anyone can make changes, it becomes extremely important to narrow down the time span in which they lived, simply because of the amount of people that was given the same names, names that repeats it selves over time, so without any guideline, people actually do make mistakes and merges in grandchild's with a grandfather's etc, and more strange, some folks out here do not get this!

How fun is it to unmerge the same profiles time after time? Every newbie who think that they know best who repeats the same mistakes in the same lines over and over again?

Then we have the speculative lines, were some people believe in certain paths and connections, some are dismissed, others are plausible, and here is a battlefield for conflicting desires and that causes problems. As long as there is not a pure invention to a specific line, I am personally for a permissive attitude, and think it could simply be enough with a footnote that says it is speculative.

But as I've said before, people who puts up something probably do have a source, enter that one in the profiles about me section, and do not be afraid of filling in places or years, really hate to see all those empty profiles, not meaning that you should invent what is really unknown, just make an effort where it's possible.

Takker Remi Trygve Pedersen. Skal absolutt bruke søkefunksjon for å ikke legge inn duplikater.

Well done merging Torunn and Tarald (Toralde), Remi Trygve Pedersen. :)

Also, I believe that Torunn/Thoron's two listed husbands probably should be merged (Toralde von Kanitz and Toralde Gunnarsen Hvit). It seems to me that they're one and the same.

And some of their children seems to be duplicates too.

I know, Randi, but before I do that I need to check the sources or get in touch with someone that knows this better than I do. I never merge people unless I'm almost 100% sure they are the same person.

If I remember correctly this is due to two different theories about the Kane`s origin. Remi: Ifølge Tore H. Vigerust: "På 1700-tallet var det akademikere i Danmark som forfattet bøker om norske adelsvåpner, som trodde at den norske adelsslekten Kane stammet fra en slekt von Kanitz i Mecklenburg. Den norske slekten Kane er kjent på mannssiden fra omkring 1340 til 1496. Slekten bar utpregede norske fornavn, som Gunnar og Toralde, et par bar navnet Niklas og Otte, en het Arild (Arald). Ingen er kjent med navnet von Kanitz i Norge, såvidt jeg vet. 1700-talls-teorien om at Kane stammer fra von Kanitz er ubevist.
Personene med navnet von Kanitz i Elgenstierna kan være folk bosatt i Mecklenburg, eller andre steder i Tyskland, eller også enskilde immigranter til Sverige. (Jeg har ikke sjekket.)" Tore was a highly respected researcher of medieval genealogy, and mentions that the Family Kane was known 1340-1496, and a Connection to Kanitz is not proven, but due to heraldic likeness they are regarded as the same: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanitz_%28Adelsgeschlecht%29 I see that both husband is set as sons of Gunnar Hjarrandsson Hvite. I would suggest remove Kanitz from the name and merge these.. One theory is Kanitz as origin others Hvite, a mixup of these theories seems to be the problem. None of them are proven, there might be a Connection to Kanitz, but not very close, as all the names are Norwegian, which makes Tore suggest a Norwegian origin among these Hvite is more probable.

The first one we know that was a Kane is Toralde Gunnarsson, (mentioned 1366-69), beyound that its speculative.. https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/131801-46347-kane-ctt-og-gods-13...

And maby even stop the lineage of Kane where it is mixed up With Hvite: Gunnar I Toraldesson Kane

Theres no genealogical evidence for such a connection only a speculation because of similar names..

Beyound Gunnar much of the Sources are Finn A. Wang a notorius inventor of speculative lineages..

Thank you David...I was confused as something I noted watching this conversation hit home to me.
@Toron HakonsdatterKane pa Berg b (1180-1220) and
@Thoron Hakonsdatter Hvit b (1225) the same person or not? One is shown as my 18th ggm and the other as my 21st ggm and have completely different paths...which I am now trying to figure out.
Toron (b between 1180-1220) is married to Torald Gunnarsson Hvit
Mother to Torald 1; gm to Gunnar 1; ggm to Toralde II; 2ggm to Gunnar Kane II; and 3ggm to Nils ... now this line becomes blurry at Tone Torbjornsdatter Sodheim & Rein who lived to be 90 but supposedly gave birth to Rolliev Torsteinson Lindheim & Kelvar at 69 years of age? I think that may be where the Kane line ended...and my lineage there stops...
now the other line that I had supposedly through the same person is Thoron Hakonsdatter Hvit (b1225 d 1300) (My 21st ggm) who was married to Torald von Kanitz and Torlad Gunnarsen Hvit??? and is listed as mother to:
Salmund pa Selvik (b1289); gm to Asa Salmundsdtr Selvik b1318; ggm to Elin Ranesdatter Tunsberg b1340; 2ggm to Karl Pedersson Skanke til Hov b1360; and 3ggm to Jens Karlsson Schanke 1407....quite a difference in lineage and supposedly on the surface the same person but I am thinking not quite so much.

Best Regards!!

Yes.. its a mess.. Mixing of different theories both legitimate and speculative.. Takes time to clean up. Sadly some will probably mess them up again soon..

I am not to sure which one to consider if any actually. I feel good through Jens Karlsson Skanke and at that point I am probably at a stop point...I found the issue with Tone Torbjornsdatter Sodheim very perplexing as Rolliev Torsteinson Lindheim is fairly well documented, but Tone has no record of children,,,,her companion fits...but she would have to be 69 years old at Rollievs birth...she was the last of the Kane line that was potentially possible I think...they are considered extinct when John Ottensson was killed but there were some daughters in there too....

May Alta

If a person was recorded before the year 1000, you can be pretty damn sure that they already exist here on Geni, please stop adding all those profiles once again, it only gets messy to sort it out afterwards!

TIPS to avoid this!
Tore "Teiande" Ragnvaldsson

Tore "Teiande" Ragnvaldsson

1. Try google, try different spellings
2. try to search for any known wife or child
3. Now you probably have found the profiles you was looking for,
connect ONLY the missing profiles you want to add on the already existing profiles in the right place, put in the source also.
4. If the profile you searched for really doesn't exist, congratulation, just add it.

May Alta

Congratulation May Alta for your contribution of adding more parents to this one, but do you really think that 6 biological parents are enough?

Trond Aspa

Son of: Toralde Sigursson Aspa Kane; Ivar Arneson Aspa; Adelus Erlingsdotter Tolstad; Adalis Erlingsdatter; Ragnhild Kane; och Anbjørg Gautesdatter

May Alta You need to stop! Or at least have a time out, and listen to what people are trying to teach you about adding profiles to the Geni World Tree. Right now it seems like you are making a lot of mess.

May, I can add the following tips also, when it comes to profiles that have contradicting sets of parents in different pedigree trees, you start a discussion before doing anything.

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