How Do You Solve a Problem Like Odin?

PS Odin's grandfather on Geni is where things fall apart at the moment, i was merging and moving people around but with the competing lineages it all gets in a tangle rather rapidly so i have put this on hold at the moment pending what fascinating responses I might get to this Discussion thread!

tag Odin, {Norse God}, Borr, {Norse God}, Bestla

Yes, this has been discussed quite a few times before, but every time we all end up unhappy...... you found the "Odin - source separation?" discussion I started a few years back.

What I've understood as common consensus is that Snorre's lines back to Turkey (and thence to Noah and Adam) were added in an attempt to make it kosher to speak about Odin in a Christian context - he was retelling the legends, but making them seem to be about a human king in order to not be hit by the wrath of the Catholic Church at the time (1300s).

I'm uncomfortable with Friuthwald Bor because he's an amalgamation, too (even though I've been complicit in mergig it).

One possibility that might be entertaining: Make Bor and Bestla his biological parents (because that's what current scholarship claims is the older tradition) and make the various other sets (Frealaf & co) his adoptive parents - having Audhumla in my tree appeals to my sense of humor :-)

One thing about the lines that go back to Turkey: I've ruthlessly cut those at the upper end, where they claim descent from a named historic figure in Turkey. There's never been a scrap of evidence found for one of these sons being real.

Linking to the "https://www.geni.com/projects/Odin-s-Kin/12244" discussion - the page for that one has the same arguments, too.

You can either amalgamate the parents or split and make one foster adoptive until we get the optioj for competing theories. I dont recommend linking sceaf to either the noah or trojan lines

Yes Harald I did read that project but chose to start a Discussion under This project to get a broader audience.
It is not like Odin is the only person with this problem.

Jason is there an option for competing theories actually being worked on? I can't imagine it very high priority for Geni

No. But it's gotta to on the to do list somewhere

I have been thinking about this issue in its connection to the Arthurian literature. One of the possibilities I ponder is that of separate trees -- the Geoffrey of Monmouth Arthurian lone, the Chretien de Troyes Arthurian line, the Marion Zimmer Bradley Arthurian line, etc.

They would connect in different places, down in the tree. But the variants would be clear.

Further explanation --

we're working on a World Tree. All the humans have therefore one profile.

But we have non-humans on the tree, for historical reasons -- there isn't ONE King Arthur. There are several.

Same thing with Odin.

So it makes sense to me to have different lines for different Odins.

I would like to see different trees for different versions of the tradition. That was my long-term plan when I worked on this project and the Arthurian project.

For the Arthurian material that approach will be almost automatic, because the experts have already divided the material into broad groups in the same literary tradition.

It would also work for Norse mythologies. I would broadly divide the Norse material into two categories (not three):

First, the pre-Christian material that represents comparative religion, with the different variations from different traditions, including perhaps the Indo-European analogs.

Second, the post Christian material that takes the Norse lines back to Biblical genealogy and the Trojan kings. There are many variations here, too. It will never be possible to reconcile all of them by trying to chain together different versions into a coherent whole.

Thinking about it over night I liked Jason's idea of using the adoptive parents tool which sort of dovetails into the multiple trees Anne suggests.

The first issue that confronts us is where to split? It is all well and good to start from Odin and work up with two different trees but what of his children? All 27 of them do not belong to a singular tradition so why show them all as children of one man? Is there a more logical point to start from which would result in multiple Odin profiles in different trees?

Can anyone confirm könig Bodo von Sachsen is a variation of Odin? Or is it an alternate genealogy for two of his sons? Or is it just a coincidence?

Jason Scott Wills why do you recommend not linking sceaf to either the noah or trojan lines? If we end up with multiple lineages for Odin for the various traditions why not follow them to their logical ends?

Using the adoption feature would make these lines hopelessly confusing, I think. Many years ago I tried that with my desktop software and ended up with such a complex tangle that I could no longer navigate the individual versions in any meaningful way.

The trojan line is pure fantasy. Noah line is a pathetic attempt by medieval monks to graft onto the biblical tree, which is many generations too short

I suspect that Bodo is a differnt tradition that some people have linked to Odin, and some have not :-(

In general, I wouldn't merge anything that 1) causes new children and 2) doesn't have a historical reference I can check out to see whether it's a reference to the same source or not.

Justin,
what would you suggest if not adoptive parents? parental conflicts? You say your previous plan was "separate trees", i imagine you mean floaters not attached to the WFT?

Jason,
I understand what you mean but the suggestion that there aren't enough generations between two fictional characters seems just a little silly.

Alex, in my ideal world no one on Geni would find a genealogical link to any fictional character. All of those genealogical clusters would be off in their own little trees where anyone could check them, or even copy them to their own data, but they wouldn't be able to calculate a relationship.

That goal might not be achievable, because I think it's important to follow the sources rather strictly. Minimize the theories and speculation. It will be especially difficult to end up with zero links to Odin because in many cases there is no good place to break the line.

i have also spent a long time actually writing and even coloring charts for these connections so that Kings of Troy traced to Zeus who was also a son of Judah and Tamar, the grandson of biblical Abraham, so I was glad to see the Irish tree separated at least considering that to be accurate. Tracing my line back to God through Adam was interesting but the question remains about how many fictional characters are based on not just history, often composed by those who conquered others, but also on her story, written into the geological evidence linking Hopi and other Native prophecies to truths not found in any but spoken and sung traditions.

To me, the question of where/whether to break fictional lines off the tree comes down to "will it interfere with accessing better knowledge".
When people try to find their path to King David or to Adam (as they will do!), Geni will most often give them the shortest path recorded.
In order to have that be the path for which the evidence is best, all the fictional lines (which are usually shorter) have to be broken at some point.

I prefer to break them at the top (the fictional child attached to a presumed historical figure, such as the Zeus->Judah/Tamar link), sometimes it's also important to break them at the bottom (a conflicting theory of parentage that needs to be one of:
- adoptive parents
- comments in the About Me, with source cites
- deleted altogether)

YMMV.

geological?

As you talk about Odin and his lineage, I want to point out that there are other stories too. Odin goes by different name in Finland. If you haven´t read finnish "Kalevala", you should. It´s a big book about Finnish and Northern tales, told by father to son. Some old people believe, that Odin would have come from North Pole, or Northern Siberia.

Helena. which character in Kalevala is odin? Wainimonen?

Tapio has the same character than Odin. Tapio is the wooden king in Finland, the god of forest and the relative of the highest sky god "Ukko ylijumala"
Wäinämöinen does have some same manners. It has said that, Wäinämöinen can change his appearance to old and young.

https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_Kalevalan_henkil%C3%B6ist%C3%A4

Like Scandinavian Sagas, The Kalevala has the same gods with different names. It has always been hard to tell, which person has different names and different personas, as euphenism is used a lot.
But it´s a book, good to know.

I don't think I got as far as a character named Tapio, i am ashamed to say I have not yet read the whole poem.

Kalevala is a cycle of legends first collected in 1835 - 1847. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala)

I have no doubt the legends are a lot older, but legends do mutate, and these have had 500 more years to mutate than the ones collected by Snorre.

Thus, I would prefer to keep a Kalevala-based tree separate from the Snorre-based tree, and keep any proposed cross-links as comments in the "about me" rather than as Geni relationships.

Yes, it is a collection.

Before independence, Russia and Sweden has owned the land of Finland. Finland has been part of Scandinavia, and many battles of Vikings, have been in here. You might even know the stories about Viking "Frost"- like many other...He was Finnish. It is good to keep the stories separeted, but do keep in mind, that Finland is much more closer than Greek or even Israel (what you are wondering).