Erik Guttormsson - Eric Guttormsson has wrong mother in lineage

Private the @ notation seems to be working badly for you. In my case, it works better if I hit control-minus several times; there's something about the size of the screen that bothers it.

Andrew, also of relevance to our tree around Guttorm, here is something to further consider:

Kristina Birgersdotters testamente från 1285 finns bevarat. Som beseglare av moderns testamente finns två döttrar från ett tidigt äktenskap - Margareta och Helena Kristinadotter. (Källa: Bo Theutenberg - Folkungar och korsriddare) Källor 1) Bo Theutenberg - Folkungar och korsriddare Född 1245.

So Margareta and Helena seem to have a father different from Siggi.

/Taro

OK, forgot you may not read Swedish/Norwegian too easily, but here a tip: Run the text through a Google on-line translator, they have come a long way and are quite good these days!

Så karer, jeg antar våre neste mål er å finne ut hva hun mente i hennes siste vil du når hun nevnte Crusader født på 1245 hvis jeg forstått at riktig. Jeg håper som kom ut på måten jeg tenkt det til.

First attempt at translator...now we are looking for a Crusader? The other father?

Margarete och Helene finns nu på två platser, Sten.
Systrarna borde slås samman, samt ges den där nn NN som far.

Helena Siggesdotter
Helena Siggesdotter

Ulf Ingvar Göte, Problemet är, att de 2 systrarnas Kristina och Margaretha Kirstinasdotter pappa är obekant. Det nämns ju i hennes testamente, att de är hennes döttrarr från ett tidigare äktenskap och alltså ej Sigge Guttormsson. De 2 andra identiska profilerna har ju lagts in på trädet med Sigge Guttormsson som fader, men det verkar ju nu vara felaktigt... Så vad skall vi nu göra? Korrekt vore ju att slå samman dubletterna under fader NN.

För resten var ju Kristina Birgersdotter gift en första (?) gång med en tysk och verkar ha haft felra barn med honom, men dessa systrar nämns ej där heller. Således verkar Sigge vara hennes 3. partner. Jobbigt, ikke? /Sten

Tysk?, i testamentet omnämns två döttrar, "Meum, nec non & predulcium mearum, Margarete & helene filiarum feci presentibus, " men vem som är fader står det inte ett ord om.

Ulf Ingvar,

precis. Men som sagt, jag sökte på Kristina Birgersdotter och hittade henne - med samme födelsesår som gift med en tysk furste med en massa barn. Och däribland varken Margrethe eller Helene. För mig luktar det långt bort av förväxling, även därför att tysken levde för länge... om så allt var fallest, hade Kristina först varit gift med tysken, fått en massa barn med honom, stuckit och fått Helena och Margaretha (med NN) och därefter gift sig igen med Sigge. Verkar helt osannolikt. Ska se om jag hittar den tyska failjen inkl Kristina B igen :)

Men under alla omständigheter verkar ej hennes 2 döttrar Margaretha och Helena ha Sigge som fader. Därför bör vi väl återspegla det i trädet, oder?

/Sten

Ulf Ingvar,

precis. Men som sagt, jag sökte på Kristina Birgersdotter och hittade henne - med samme födelsesår som gift med en tysk furste med en massa barn. Och däribland varken Margrethe eller Helene.
För mig luktar det långt bort av förväxling, även därför att tysken levde för länge... om så allt var fallest, hade Kristina först varit gift med tysken, fått en massa barn med honom, stuckit och fått Helena och Margaretha (med NN) och därefter gift sig igen med Sigge. Verkar helt osannolikt. Ska se om jag hittar den tyska failjen inkl Kristina B igen :)

Men under alla omständigheter verkar ej hennes 2 döttrar Margaretha och Helena ha Sigge som fader. Därför bör vi väl återspegla det i trädet, oder?

/Sten

PS/ Hittade tysken - som var gift med Kristinas syster och ej som en antavla jag sett, med Kristina.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_I,_Prince_of_Anhalt-Zerbst

och här den felaktiga antavlan

http://historiska-personer.nu/min-s/p250a46cd.html

Ja det gäller ju att inte förväxla systrarna, jag ser det lite som ett otyg när vissa lägger in syskoninformation i fel profil, det är enkelt att göra fel då. I det här fallet gäller det någon som lagt in information om systern Katarina i Kristinas profil...

När det gäller att hitta rätt make nummer ett, så har vi inte mycket att gå på. Kristina är sannolikt född efter ca 1240 men före 1250, detta med tanke på hennes döttrar som bör ha varit myndiga vid bevittnandet av hennes testament 1285, de bör ha varit födda under 1260 talet, vilket ger att sonen Birger alltså är född efter dem och trol. eft. ca. 1270, så den förste maken bör ju rimligen ha dött mellan åren 1260 - 1270 samt bör själv ha varit född före 1242, så vi söker alltså efter en man som stämmer in på de kriterierna.

Med tanke på att det inte förefaller finnas några bevarade dokument i Svenska arkiv, så är enda hoppet att finna honom i utländska källor, fast jag tvivlar på att detta ens är möjligt med tanke på alla som redan har misslyckats med att identifiera honom.

It appears it has gone a bit sideways in the search for ties with Erik and just who he is and who the daughters are.
1. One trip with the names Cecelia (Haroldsdotter) and Helena (Siggesdotter {Renz's}??? Has Cecelia linked up with Lars Ulsson (Ulf Holgersson and Holmger Birgesson lines) Part of the last Folkung....and Kristina and Catherina seem intertwined in the Wikipedia accounts relating to Birger Jarl (Magnusson) and Ingeborg Eriksdotter...with all the civil strife occurring then it appears as a marriage of convenience.

Now I have almost too many paths it appears. So I will break out a beer tonight and try it again.
@Helena Kristinadotter

Yes, but I also find this a bit cryptic, "meum, nec non, et predulcium mearum filiarum, feci presentibus" my translation to english, "my, or not, and dear, my daughters, I present", who can translate this to make any sense out of it? My or not what?

I know, I spent about two hours today sorting out some of the Cecelia Haroldsdotter, Margerete , and Helena Siggesdatter items including the German Prince Sigfreid Anhalt-Zerbet.....
With Kristina Birgersdatter raising Helena (Renz's daughter) is this possible...I have found conflicting information that Kristina and Katerina were married to Sigfried.
One in Wikipedia has Sigfreid Anhalt married to Katharina Birgerdatter (Birger Magnusson) and another has Kristina Birgersdatter as his bride...boith have Prince Albert as the child and one has Kristina having two more children with Sigge Guttormsson...and again, Helena Renz's daughter shows up.in the book of kings, Magnusson issue has Kristina of Bjalbo married to ""NN" mother to Elena married to Ulf Holmgrensson...but has another child in there...
Oddly an Eric Magnussen, Duke of Sweden shows up too...Could he be the Crusader (Second Crusade to convert the Finns I believe) I am using that as a historical anchor with this problem...)
Will check again this evening...

The best piece of information I got was a reference to Guttorm Dagfinnsson. It described him as "Ostmanssons grandson Guttorm grandsonGuttorm Ostmannson is to be daughters grandson's grandson of the chief Ostman Gudfastsson"who is on the runestone in Froson.
Page 464/5000 and translated from Danish.
The lineage is tied to of the chief Ostman Gudfastsson which may be the wrinkle in history we were looking for regarding the succession to Dagfinn and the mysterious Erik Guttormsson....

when you find inconsistencies in Wikipedia, it's doubly important to check the sources that Wikipedia quotes. Wikipedia editors are as prone to pet theories and mistakes in quoting as Geni contributors and history professors are (I know, I've been a Wikipedia admin too).

"meum, nec non, et predulcium mearum filiarum, feci presentibus" my translation to english, "my, or not, and dear, my daughters, I present", who can translate this to make any sense out of it?
"My or not what?"
My could be mine, of course. Mine or not mine could refer to what she executes in her will - or it could be the daughters (or one of them), but that is less likely, I guess.
If "mine or mine not", it may refer to the property, which most likely came from the mysterious father of the 2 girls in " a previous marriage". "Mine or mine not" could then indicate, that he just disappeared, maybe in a crusade (?) and nobody incl. her really know his whereabouts and IF HE IS ALIVE OR DEAD...

/Taro

Yes, could be, but in a split second I also could read it as the two daughters in a sort of language beautification, or more just like a polite term, really wasn't hers at all, just stepdaughters, but that she regarded them as they were her own.

Yes, also my thoughts, maybe not quite her own, but with their names being Kristinasdotter, I thought that being rather far fetched.

Having Kristinadotter as a matronymic is *highly* unusual - it means that the mother was considered much more important than the father.

Which, in a patriarchal society, didn't happen often.

And in which contemporary sources are they actually named Kristinadotter?

The translation from Latin? to English and how it would be spoken..would be ..."These are my daughters....(regardless) whether mine (born) or not"...so are they daughters possibly raised by her but borne of a previous mother (deceased).
Since I am not sure how one would go from Norse patrinomic to an Icelandic matrinomic method for the name...unless the mother was someone really important....how did they handle a child of rape (unknown) or just not sure (single mom) who either had money or moved to avoid a scandal?? Just wondering. Leaning towards Duke Erik of Sweden being the Duke...his father the Crusader?

Birger Jarl visited Jerusalem and yes he also went on a crusade, but to Finland..,so it wouldn't be surprising if the first man if he were a part of this circles , if he ever existed, died on a pilgrimage, or in a crusade.

That is what I am thinking is the Crusade reference, the second crusade to subjugate the pagan Finn population at the time. As it was referred to a crusade, it would be the young Dukes opportunity for glory to be won I guess as a Swedish Knoght.
It also makes sense that as a Knight and a Duke, he would be taking care of the execution of the will and testament of his kinfolk.

http://mrwiren.se/Runes%20%20ANTAVLA/003/00/399.htm

Perhaps a tie on Cecelia Sverresdattir?

@Guttorm Guttormsson

"Dagfinsson, Guttorm, Guttorm Östmanssons sonsons sonson, känd år 1347. (Källa: Skanke ätten sid 438, Roger de Robelin)"
http://mrwiren.se/Runes%20%20ANTAVLA/003/00/399.htm

Guttorm Austmannsson, Jarl, his son Guttorm Guttormsson, his son → Erik Guttormsson, his son → Dagfinn Eriksson
seems like one profile still are missing.

That would be our mysterious Guttorm Guttormsson...what about Ceceia? If she was King Sverrir's daughter she would be Cecelia Sverrirsdatter one of three women Guttorm Guttormsson is sadi to have been married to....

"meum, nec non", should be, Meum necnon, = Mine, and. And in swedish,
Jag, samt och mina kära döttrar, etc.