Hallstein Torleivsson - The connection between the deposed king of Isle of Man and the noble Skanke family i Norway, Sweden and Denmark

Started by Private on Thursday, February 25, 2016
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William de Montagu 2nd Earl was the great grandson of the Simon de Montagu who got the claim to Man from Aufica. His father, William 1st Earl is the one who got the kingdom in 1334 from the the king of England when he finally settled the succession dispute.

I don't have a better link to the succession story right off. Stewart Baldwin's pages are a staple for the topics he discusses. It should be okay to link to them.

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/

There might be a good discussion in Complete Peerage but I'm not finding a link.

"If "Schenk" in this name was a job title and not a coat-of-arms description, he might have had a career that included being servitor to the king. But that's another speculation. I'm not putting that into the Wiki."

That's good, nothing points to that anyway, why would a servant of food and wine sign an agreement surrounded by knights and noblemen? - Wait a minute, we just must have our butler to sign too, just for fun!

If you take a close look at this seal from 1303, you would see that it's missing the end off the name, so if his father were Torlack, then we are talking about another men, but if his name actually was Torleif, it all fits.

Riddare Hallsten Torleifsson sigil 1303
http://www.havsnas.se/anor/p0ed632c40.jpg

Nickolaus (Nils) Hallstensson Skancke sigill år 1345.
http://www.havsnas.se/anor/pfa343d0f0.jpg

But just to make it more intriguing, Erling Amundsen Skanke signed a letter 1303.
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanke#/media/File:Insignia_qu%C3%A6d...

Remember that in the middle ages, royal courts had high-born officials who carried titles like butler and steward. When the Butler is one of the leading men in the kingdom, of course you might have him sign.

> Erling Amundsen Skanke signed a letter 1303.

Proof there is more than one Skanke family? Or is Amundsen also a misreading for Torleif?

:)

Justin Swanstrøm, Remi Trygve Pedersen, Harald Tveit Alvestrand and David Widerberg Howden : be careful not to impose as blunt tools in this debate. To desavuate the works of late professors in history can be a two-sided sword !

The black and white approach is not helping, and the judgment of evidence is not made by democratic decissions !

It is imperative not to conclude before you are sure that all the evidence has surfaced. In this case, there is no need to rush the decission.

There are two tracks missing so far on these connections, I have also raised these issues in the Skanke foras :

1. the moneytrail - the history of the Skanke (the undebated one) shows a significant line of "wælbørdige" (rich men) from 1360 in Jämtland. I doubt that any of the descendents from the hunter/gatherers in Jämtland could have accumulated such resources from their activity before "digerdauden" (black Death, 1349). This is the basis of the Skankes independent rule in Jämtland and is quite a mystery, but makes sence if the source of the wealth comes from the Isle of Man, see the treaty of Perth,1266.

2. The history of the Isle of Man up until our days shows that the manxmen and -women have been constantly and succesfully fighting for the Islands independence.

The independent rule is based om that of the norse vice-king who was not feudal (feudal means that the land is devided between noble men (dukes, barons, counts etc.).

In practice, the norse nobels would have had to pay the landowner for the land they wanted. The feudal nobles got their land from the kings as gifts or as downpayments to the kings. It is easy to sympatize with the first solution.

The triskelion, still in use today, could very well be a symbol of non-feudal reign of the Isle of Man, a system still fought for today. The Skankes fit right into this system, as none of them are barons, counts, dukes etc.

Well I cant find him in Robelins book about Skanke.
Dont think he was a of the same Family and he is not called a Skanke, its just the commentary the collector had for his coat of arms..

The Picture you see is from Iver Hirtzholms book:

"No. 46. Erling Amundson for it breff 1303"
"Og skulle være de rette skancker"

Which roughly translates to Erling Amundson for a letter 1303. And may this be the right skanker"?

Private User what's the provenance of those two images of seals? I've seen them several times before, but never with a statement of which seal belongs to which document; I'm assuming from context that they are from DN III #56 and DN X #51, but "assume makes an ass out of u and me"..... if you know of a place that has scans of the actual DN documents, that would be most welcome!

I've read the 1303 reference in Iver Hirtzholm's book of sigils - it's completely unclear to me if the letter was from Erling Amundsen, to Erling Amundsen or in the posession of Erling Amundsen. He refers to "de rette Skanker", but it's unclear what that means in the context.

Private the first part of evaluating the works of late professors in history is to figure out what they said ... the second is to figure out what evidence they quoted when saying it.

At the moment I'm on the first point wrt Barney Young, Nils Ahnlund, Roger de Robelin and Lars Løberg; I'm not even at the first point with regard to P. A. Munch - I don't know what he said.

As to richness of Jämtland - Frösön was a major trading centre in Viking times, having been farmers since AD 400 or so according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4mtland#Medieval_period. Having rich people in a major trading centre is no big surprise.

As to the continued struggle for independence of the people of Man - I recommend you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Mann for a reality check.

Images of those two seals are from this book: http://urn.nb.no/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2009052603006

A lot of younger documents are scanned, but not that old yet..
https://www.arkivverket.no/arkivverket/Digitalarkivet/Om-Digitalark...

University of Bergen and University Library of Trondheim has also scanned some letters, but not sure if they can be any of those..

I agree that the Reference in Hirtzholms book is not easy to interpret. In Henning Sollieds Reference book of heraldry he Writes

"R.N.V. No. 25
Erling Amundsen 1303. Dette skal være de rette Skankers vaaben. Om Erling se Huitfeldt Ao 1295 p. 307. Han levede endnu 1307. Derom videre følgende Brev in extenso [NS 30, 1303]

In his Reference book theres multiple veapons similar to both one-legged skanker and triskellion. It was not only the Skanke Family that used this as a heraldic element..

http://urn.nb.no/URN:NBN:no-nb_digimanus_204993

http://urn.nb.no/URN:NBN:no-nb_digimanus_204994

David Widerberg Howden is the book you cite dated to 1515? I take it that the name on the inner cover is because it belonged to Henning Sollied (1869-1955) (https://nbl.snl.no/Henning_Sollied)? Do we know its provenance?

Hello Harald, no this is a Reference book he made himself (around 1940).
Henning Sollied was together With Tore H. Vigerust some of the most influental medieval genealogists in Norway. Most (with some few exceptions) of their articles still stands as standard litterature for this period in genealogy.

Iver Hirtzholms book can be found here:
http://urn.nb.no/URN:NBN:no-nb_digimanus_64722

Hirtzholms book is from around 1680-1693.
http://www.genealogi.no/mediawiki/index.php/Iver_Hirtzholms_v%C3%A5...

Im not sure, but there is a Erling Amundsson in the letter from 1303 DN b.X, no. 56, but there could be another letter as there are probably letters in 1680 that are lost.

In Gerhard Schønnings book. http://www.genealogi.no/mediawiki/index.php/Gerhard_Sch%C3%B8nings_...

This is written about the same: 25 R.N.V. No. 25. Erling Amundsen 1303. Dette skal wære de rette Skankers Vaaben. Om Erling see Hvitf. Ao 1295 p. 307. Han levede endnu 1307. Derom videre følgende Brev in extenso [NS 30, 1303] [med en yngre hånd:] Adelus Skanke omtrent 1500 * Torben Lillie til Flænes. Under Diplomer af 1303 Magn. Nidr. Fasc. VII findes denne Erlingr Amundasuns Vaaben saaledes: [tegning: snekkesnitt] hvilket følgelig maa være ret. Foranførte Vaaben tillægges eller i disse samme Breve Hallstein Thorleifson [NS 32, 1303], som altsaa maa være af de rette gamle Schanker.

Theres also a "Andres Amundson (Skanke?)" mentioned in Gerhard Munthes book (1782-1813): http://heraldikk2.blogspot.no/2007/11/gerhard-munthe-segltegninger....

Must also point out that the publication of Gerhard Schønnings book has shown that the Author has jumped to a lot of conclusions withouth these being correct. The commentaries and interpretations is dubious, but its a beautiful book (I have this one at home).

The Erling Amundsson in DN b.X no.56 is also mentioned in this book:
http://urn.nb.no/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2009052603006

It seems like this is another seal for Erling Amundsson, or the interpretation by Hirtzholm is very different:

No.30: Erling Amundssøn, Baron. Trekantet skjold, der ved krumme linier er delt i 8 saakaldte snekkesnitt. Omskr. mangler. DN b. X no.56.

The same is also mentioned in 1312:

No.62: Erling Amundssøn, Baron. Trekantet skjold, ved krumme linier, delt i 6 snekkesnitt. DN b. 1, no. 134.

None of these looks any similar to the interpretation by Hirtzholm, (theres drawings of these seals in the book).

Baron Erling Amundson is the same as this one: Riksråd Erling Amundsson Hildugard

Det er viktig å merke seg at ingen av ridderene Erik Sæmundsson Skanke (Viken), Olav Nilsson Skanke (Bergen) eller Ørjan Karlsson Skanke (Jemtland) har føydale adelstitler i det 15. århundre. Skankene er i følge historisk tradisjon oppfattet som en del av den gamle norske "uradel" som ikke var føydale, det vil si at de ikke hadde arvetitler eller priviliegier. I stedet var de sysselmenn, høvdinger og krigsherrer med egen inngiftet, arvet eller kjøpt eiendom på samme måte som andre jordeiere.
At baron Erling Amundson skal være "av de rette skanker" er derfor usannsynlig, i følge hans tittel tilhører han føydaladel.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand, here is a realitycheck regarding norse culture on the Isle of Man : http://www.tynwald.org.im/Pages/default.aspx

@Stein Åge what does Tynwald court's history have to do with whether a particular noble family travelled from Man to Jämtland?

Harald, you posted a message in this link as a comment to my postulation regarding the difference between the feudal system in England/Scotland and the alternative from the non-feudal reign of Norway. You invited me to take a reality check about what the Manxmen have fought over since 1275. The Tynwald Courts presence and history on the Isle of man is in my opinion living evidence of the Manx populations choice, withstanding over centuries until now. The resimbliance to the later Skanke-reign in Jämtland is more than a coincidence, in my and many others opinion.

This is from an official information regarding The Isle of Man from appr 2010 :

The Isle of Man (Ellan Vannin in Manx) or Mann (Mannin in Manx), is located in the Irish Sea at the geographical centre of the British Isles. Although it is not part of the United Kingdom, it is a Crown dependency.

The Isle of Man is part of the British Isles, an archipelago off the north-western coast of mainland Europe. The island lies in the Irish Sea, approximately equidistant between England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Approximately 48 kilometres (32 mi) long and between 13 and 24 kilometres (8 and 15 mi) in breadth, the island has an area of around 572 square kilometres (221 sq mi).

Hills in the north and south are bisected by a central valley. The extreme north is exceptionally flat, consisting mainly of deposits built up by deposition from glacial advances from Western Scotland during colder times. There are more recently deposited shingle beaches at the Point of Ayre. It has only one mountain higher than 2,000 feet, Snaefell, with a height of 621 metres (2,036 ft). According to an old saying, from the summit one can see seven kingdoms: those of Mann, Scotland, England, Irelane, Wales, Heaven and Neptune.

According to the 2001 census, the Isle of Man is home to 76,315 people, of whom around 25,347 reside in the Island's capital, Douglas (Doolish). This gives the island a population density of 345 people per square mile, or 133 per square kilometer.

The culture of the Isle of Man is strongly influenced by its Celtic and Norse origins. It is currently enjoying a revival of the Gaelic Manx language (Gaelg). Although the last original native speaker died in 1974, small children are once again being brought up speaking Manx. There are now 27 known native speakers and 650 other speakers. Manx is closely related to the Scottish Gaelic and Irish languages. A well known Manx expression is "Traa Dy Liooar", meaning "time enough" and represents a stereotypical view of the Manx attitude to life.

The Isle of Man is a self-governing crown dependency. The head of state is the Lord of Mann who is the British Sovereign, currently Her Majesty The Queen; her title on the Island is Lord of Mann. She is represented by the Island's Lieutenant Governor. The United Kingdom is responsible for the Island's defence and for representing the Island in international forums, while the Island's own parliament has competence over almost all domestic matters.

The Island's parliament is Tynwald (Tinvaal), which dates from 979 A.D - the oldest parliament currently still active anywhere in the world. Tynwald is a tricameral legislature, comprising the House of Keys (directly elected by universal suffrage) and the Legislative Council (consisting of indirectly elected and ex officio members). Furthermore, when these two bodies meet together the third chamber, called Tynwald, is formed. There is a Council of Ministers, which is headed by the Chief Minister, currently Donald Gelling MLC.

As of 2005, the Island's system of government is under review — there are plans to transform the Legislative Council into a directly-elected chamber, echoing the push for reform in the UK's House of Lords and the abolition of indirectly elected Conseillers in Guernsey.

To date, no legislation has successfully passed through the House of Keys and given the fact that the issue has been high up the political agenda for over a decade, change does not seem to be forthcoming in the short term. This was reinforced by the political retirement of one of the main proposers of change, Edgar Quine. In October 2005 Tynwald accepted a proposal to change the title of the Lieutenant Governor to Crown Commissioner or Barrantagh y Chrooin in Manx (the title would also be "Barrantagh ny Benrein," or "Queen's Commissioner"; when there is a King it will be "Barrantagh ny Ree," or "King's Commissioner"). The proposal now has to go to London for approval, but the United Kingdom Department for Constitutional Affairs indicated early in 2005 that this was likely to be given.

However, recent developments have suggested that the issue may be decided on the basis of an Island wide referendum.

A common misconception exists that Mann forms part of the United Kingdom. Under British law it does not, although the United Kingdom takes care of its external and defence affairs. The Isle of Man had a dispute with the European Court of Human Rights in the 1970s because it was reluctant to change its laws concerning birching (corporal punishment for male offenders). The law on sodomy might have also led down this road had it not been changed in the early 1990s.

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the European Union, and lies outside the European Economic Area (EEA). Nonetheless, Protocol Three of the treaty of accession of the United Kingdom permits trade for Manx goods without non-EU tariffs. In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.

There is no Manx citizenship. Manx people are classed as British citizens but those defined as Manx under Protocol Three have a special endorsement placed in their passports preventing them from freely living or working in EU states. Those Manx persons with a parent or grandparent born in the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland), or who have lived in the UK for 5 years, are not subject to this provision.

The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU (formerly EEC) clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession of the United Kingdom excluding the Channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man at the time.

Travel to the Isle of Man is regulated by the local government laws, although the Isle of Man is part of the Common Travel Area. Visitors from countries who require a UK visa may also require a special Manx visa, obtainable from a British diplomatic mission. All non-Manx, including UK citizens, are required to obtain a work permit to take up employment on the Island.

Most Manx politicians stand for election as independents rather than as representatives of political parties. Though political parties do exist, their influence is not nearly as strong as is the case in the United Kingdom. Consequently, much Manx legislation develops through consensus among the members of Tynwald, which contrasts with the much more adversarial nature of the UK parliament.

One political party, Mec Vannin, advocates the establishment of a sovereign republic. A Manx Labour Party also exists, unaffiliated to the UK Labour Party. The island formerly had a Manx National Party and a Manx Communist party. There are Manx members in the Celtic League, a political pressure group that advocates greater co-operation between and political autonomy for the Celtic nations. The main political issues include the Island's relationship with the finance sector, housing prices and shortages, and the Manx language. The vast majority of the members of the House of Keys are non-partisan (19), with two representatives from the Manx Labour Party and three from the Alliance for Progressive Government. The next scheduled election is in 2006.

The Isle of Man is divided into six administrative districts, called sheadings. The six sheadings are Ayre, Glenfaba, Garff, Michael, Rushen and Middle. The sheadings form the basis of some constituencies and each has a Coroner. This office must not be confused with the Coronor for Inquests, a role usually fulfilled by the High Bailiff. A person may fulfil the role of coroner for more than one sheading at the same time.

The term 'sheading' is thought to be a Norse word for 'ship division'; each district was believed to be responsible for producing a certain number of warships. It could also be a Celtic word meaning 'sixth part'.

The Isle of Man is a low tax economy with income tax rates of 10% and 18% and 0% rate of corporate tax. Offshore banking, manufacturing, and tourism form key sectors of the economy of the Isle of Man. The government's policy of offering incentives to high-technology companies and financial institutions to locate on the Island has expanded employment opportunities in high-income industries. As a result, agriculture and fishing, once the mainstays of the economy, have declined in their shares of gross domestic product (GDP). Banking and other services now contribute the great bulk of GDP. Trade takes place mostly with the United Kingdom. The Isle of Man has access to European Union markets.

Since 1999, the Isle of Man has received electricity through the world's longest submarine AC cable, the 90 kV Isle of Man to England Interconnector, as well as from a natural gas power station in Douglas, an oil power station in Peel and a small hydro-electric power station in Sulby Glen.

The Manx government has also been promoting island locations for making films by contributing to the production costs. Among the most successful was Waking Ned Devine where the Manx countryside stood in for rural Ireland.

The Isle of Man became a Viking outpost/kingdom from circa AD 700 to AD 900. The Norse Kingdom of Mann and the Isles was created by Godred Crovan in 1079. Norway's King Magnus VI ceded the isles to Scotland in 1266, as dictated in the Treaty of Perth. The Isle of Man came under English control in the 14th century and to the British Crown in 1765.

The Island arguably has the oldest continuous parliament in the world, the Tynwald, nominally founded in 979 AD (both the Icelandic parliament and the Faroese parliament are older, but they were abolished between 1800 - 1845, and 1816 - 1852 respectively). The annual ceremonial meeting at Tynwald Hill, on Tynwald Day in July, continues the celebration of the Island's national day. The main purpose of the occasion is to read the titles and to give a brief description of the new laws which have been enacted by the Tynwald Court during the previous year.

For centuries, the Island's symbol has been the ancient Triskelion: three bent legs, each with a spur, joined at the thigh. The Triskelion does not appear to have an official definition — Government publications, currency, flags, the tourist authority and others all use different variants. Most, but not all, preserve rotational symmetry. Some run clockwise, others anticlockwise. Some have the uppermost thigh at 12:00, others at 11:30 or 10:00, etc. Some have the knee bent at 90°, some at 60°, some at closer to 120°. Also the degree of ornamentation of the leg wear and spur vary considerably.

The three legs relate directly to the island's motto — Quocunque Jeceris Stabit, which translates to Whithersoever you throw it, it will stand. Interpretations of the motto often stress stability and robustness in the Manx character. Many schools on the island have adapted the motto to promote perseverance and hard work.

Variations on the Triskelion are still in use on the coats of arms belonging to the different branches of the ancient Norwegian noble family that ruled Mann up until the 13th century. This particular version belongs to the Skancke branch of the Skanke family. The name stems from skank, the Norwegian version of the word shank. The Norse royal family of Man stayed on the island for some years after the death of Magnus III and the beginning of Scottish rule. The family's emigration only came after the a final attempt on the Manx' part at restoring the old Sudreyar dynasty in the 1275 uprising against the Scots. This revolt failed disastrously, ending in the deaths of hundreds of rebels, including the last Norse King of Man, Godred Magnusson when the Manx suffered defeat in the decisive Battle of Ronaldsway, near Castletown. When the Norse-Manx royals arrived in Norway they took service as nobles of the Norwegian king, quickly becoming knights, landlords, and clergy under the Norwegian Crown.

The Isle of Man shall host the IV Commonwealth Youth Games in 2011.

The Island started the Island Games in 1985 and hosted them once again in 2001.

There are a number of Rugby Union clubs that participate in the English rugby scene, such as Douglas R.U.F.C.; Castletown R.U.F.C.; Southern Nomads R.U.F.C.; and Vagabonds R.U.F.C.. It would be possible to enter an Isle of Man Sevens rugby team in the Commonwealth Games.

Cammag is similar to the Scottish game of shinty, and Irish hurling. It used to be the most widespread sport on the Isle of Man, but it ceased to be played after the introduction of football, until very recently when it has been somewhat revived. It involves a stick (cammag) and a ball (crick) with anything between four and hundreds of players. Sometimes whole towns and villages took part, or even played each other. The cammag can be any stick with a bent end, and the crick can be made from cork or wood. Old accounts tell us that it was occasionally covered in a rag to make it less painful to hit. Cammag season started on Hunt the Wren Day (26th December) and was only played by men (of all ages) during the winter.

Realistically, it ceased to be played around 1900. However, in modern times, an annual match of cammag is played in St. John's (Balley Keill Eoin). As there are no rules to cammag, a trip to the local inn is advised to ease any feelings of cowardice beforehand!

Monarch Assurance international chess tournament is held in Port Erin every September-October.

The Isle of Man Cricket Association broke their affiliation with the Lancashire Cricket Board in 2004 to become affiliate members of the International Cricket Council and compete as a national team in their own right.

Mark Cavendish won the Madison, Track cycling, event at the Los Angeles World Championships in 2005, and won the Commonwealth Games, Gold Medal, in the 2006, 80 lap Scratch race on the track in Melbourne.

He currently rides for small German team Team Sparkasse, as one of the most promising talents in British cycling.

Football is also popular, with the Isle of Man Football Association running a football league of 27 clubs in two divisions, as well as a football combination for the reserve teams of the league clubs. There is also a national football team, although it does not participate in UEFA or FIFA tournaments.

The Isle of Man hosts very successful Men's and Women's gymnastics teams, which consist of gymnasts solely from Manx Gymnastics. Recent accomplishments include 2001, 2003 and 2005 Island Games, the latest of which the gymnastics team came away with 29 medals, including 15 golds out of the total of 34 that the Isle of Man team won. Manx Gymnastics sent a number of gymnasts to the 2004 Junior Commonwealth Games in Melbourne, and plan to send more to the 2006 Commonwealth Games.

There are many Manx hockey teams, with mixed, mens and ladies leagues.

The Isle of Man is famous for its TT Motorbike racing event, which began in 1904 as a motorcar race. From 1905, the TT was held as a closed roads motorcycle racing event and the original course was extended in the 1920s. This is now a series of annual motorcycle road races over 37.25 miles held from late May to early June. TT stands for Tourist Trophy.

The 4.25 mile Billown Course near Castletown has been the scene of further events such as the Southern 100 in May, June and July since 1955.

Further racing takes place on the TT course each August-September in the form of the Manx Grand Prix. The idea of motor cycle racing for amateurs and private entrants on the famous TT course gave rise to the birth of the MGP back in 1921.

Linked to all this motor cycle racing are the Supporters Clubs, Riders Assns and, of course, the TT Marshals Association and the MGP Marshals Association as, without marshals, no racing would be possible.

Despite the wet and cool climate, the low income tax regime and zero tax on personal investments attract a small number of famous people to live on the island. The British racing driver Nigel Mansell lived on the Isle of Man together with his family until moving to the USA. Sir Norman Wisdom, comedian and actor, is a long term resident. The Bee Gees were born on the Island. Jeremy Clarkson has a home at Langness, near Castletown. Rick Wakeman has lived on the island for a number of years. John Rhys-Davies is also from Mann. The journalist, author, and screenwriter George MacDonald Fraser resides on the Isle of Man; the title of his memoir "The Light's on at Signpost" is a reference to the Isle of Man TT race.

A) An "official quote" is worth exactly the electrons it is printed on unless it's got a specified source. What's the source?

B) What new information does this give us about the connection?

We already know that the claim of a link between the Skancke family and the kings of Man has been made multiple times. What we don't have is compelling evidence that those claims are true.

Repeating that other people have repeated those claims contributes nothing.

Very interesting. I didn't know the Isle of Man ,wasn't part of Scotland. But then there are a lot of things I don't know.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand, now it seems that ignorance will not end in this discussion. Have you considered that this can be evidence of oral tradition at The Isle of Man ?

I am not sure if you apply the true or false parameter or the more or less likely parameter. Either way, you must state your position. I suspect that you disregard any evidence in the more ot less likely parameter, wich is the overwhelming evidential basis in social sciences. If this is the case, you are nothing but an ignorant. If I have misjudged this, please prove me wrong.

Pointing at these connection as historical facts are not claims at all, rather part of a serious and well founded scientific theory that in my opinion implies very interesting lines of governmental and judicial structures from Scandinavia that have survived through history until our days.

The genealogical sources that these connections are based on are similar to any other noble line in Scandinavia in the same period. Standing on your position, you must disregard any genealogical connection between any two persons before the 17th century.

What about the Skancke clan of Jämtland and their puzzle of DNA. Maybe they will find something?

I would like to point out that the earliest person we have sources for among the Jämtlands-Skanke and specially the Hackås-line is Peder Nilsson Schancke by his sons patronymicon Pederson/Peterson (his ancestry is unknown, so he should really be known as Peder NN instead of Peder Nilsen Skanke).

The two (modern) variants of the weapons of Peder's sons are https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000001505583656?album_type=phot... and https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000001505583656?album_type=phot...

And since the claim to Manx ancestry is the similarity of coat of arms, I would like you to pay some attention to this coat of arms: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Steinwehr-Wappen_I.png?usel... and in this book from 1843, page 330: http://zbc.ksiaznica.szczecin.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?id=107&from...

Remi Trygve Pedersen, what would be the historical links (evidence of scientific means) between Steinwehrs coat of arms / Stettins coat of arms and the non-feudal regime of mideaval Jämtland ? Considering that these coats of arms originates from a feudal part of Europe?

The oldest edition of the Skankes coat of arms is Ønd Pedersons tombstone at Frøsøn from 1397. Ønd was born in 1360 and belonged to the Norwegian kings trustees. He was not feudal.

Have you considered the possibility that the Norwegian noblemens use of the Manx triskelion as coat of arms, used as late as Nils Hallsteinsson (1348) could be taken on as an insult or a threat to the Scottish/English rule of The Isle of Man ? What could be the Norwegian kings response to avoid a conflict ?

Haven't we already gone through these arguments?

1. Tourist brochures aren't an official government statement.

2. DNA can't prove anything unless you have a proven line to compare.

3. The Skanckes use the wrong coat of arms for the descent they claim.

Stein, oral tradition is often true then you people think. It's all they had back then, you know.

Private User please explain what you are trying to say. To me what you wrote was just complete jibberish.

Private this has to do about the similarity between the coat of arms. Youngs and your argument is that because the coat of arms between the State of Manx and Hallstein torleivsson or Torlack Scenck is similar, so are the coat of arms of the noble family Steinwehr to the coat of arms used by the Pedersons Önd and Karl.

Youngs arguments is dependent on the similarity of the coat arms between Isle of Man and Hallstein's. I just showed one that is a lot more similar to the Skanke's in Jämtland than the one on Isle of Man, so why are you dismissing this one, or the ones belonging to the families Lüskow and Bütsow who also used similar coat of arms to what the Jämtland-Skanke's did. One of these are probably more correct beacuse they are more Close to what the Jämtland-Skankes used.

And if you are not able to explain the connection between the Manx triskelion and the one-legged coat of arms of Önd and Karl Pederson, then you have a probem! There are a lot of one-legged coat of arms in Europe the noblemane of Jämtland could have as ancestors, I have just mention the most likely ones, according to the coat of arms, as Young uses in his argumentation.

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