Hallstein Torleivsson - The connection between the deposed king of Isle of Man and the noble Skanke family i Norway, Sweden and Denmark

Stein Aage, how much do you trust the genealogies of P A Munch? He died in 1863. And what do you know about how his genealogies are regarded by todays historians?

Stein, your points seem to agree with what I wrote. Good.

Your one point is that is that it was the theory of two historians that Torlack Schenk was the son of Harald Gudrodsson and that Torlack was a mistake for Torleiv. That's fine, but it's not proof. It's a theory.

In medieval Scandinavian documents it is fairly common to see unusual spellings. If Thorlack were an otherwise undocumented name I would believe more easily that it was a mistake for Torleiv. But, it's a different name:

http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/%C3%9E%C3%B3rl%C3%A6ikR
http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/%C3%9E%C3%B3rl%C3%A6ifR

That weakens the theory considerably. He is being named as one of the leading men in the kingdom, guaranteeing an important treaty. This is not someone inconsequential like the owner of an adjoining parcel in a deed for five acres.

I would certainly be willing to watch for examples going forward of other people in Scandinavia using the same or similar arms, but I have to warn you this is a "red herring" for your argument. I read the other day that the Swedish Barfot family was apparently descended from this Shenck family and the only proof ofered was that they used similar arms. Ha! I would disagree both with the premise and the similarity, but you see how these things go.

I ask this question again :

The premises are that the surname Skanke (shanks) points back to the coat of arms with a plurality of legs. The premises are that the historical using of the name is a very strong proof of ancestral links.

Which of these historical persons does not meet the requirements ?

What other similar coat of arms is present in Norway in the timespan from 1250 to 1350 ?

With regards to the Barfods coat of arms, the theory is that the name and the coat of arms is first made after the conviction of Nils Hallsteinsson at Frøsøn in 1345, at the same time the Skankes altered their coat of arms to one leg.

Now you are asking a different question.

Your previous question was about the problem of identifying the specific link between Torlack Schenk and Hallstein Torleivsson. Now you are asking only whether they could have belonged to the same family.

1. Other people might have seen it, and someone somewhere might have written about it, but I still haven't seen a picture of the coat of arms of Torlak Schenk, taken from the original source. His name (apparently) appears as Schenk, but is there proof of his arms? One leg? Three legs?

2. Hallstein Torleivsson (apparently) has a coat of arms with three legs, judging from his Geni picture. Is is documented with the surname Schenk? Probably, it doesn't much matter because he is considered to be the ancestor of the Schenk family and his arms make it likely these arms are the source of the name. But, it would be a small point in favor if he himself actually used the name.

3. The main difficulty is still the disconnect between the names Torlack and Torleiv. Two men can be members of the same family, and use the same arms, without being father and son.

The burden of proof is on you as the advocate of the theory. Some of this seems like it would be very simple. Other pieces will be harder for you to collect, but it must be you who collects it if you want to make your case.

Stein Åge: for most of the history of the Skanke family, they've been using a shield with only one leg. This would seem to invalidate the theory that their name is inextricably linked with a shield having more than one leg.

BTW, the triskelion version (naked legs) seems to be attested here in a heraldry book from the 1600s:
http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/50554242791a4c8ff12fba477f243d16.nbdigita... - no. 46, said to be a copy from a letter from 1303 by one Erling Amundsen. No idea how he connects to all of this; he's not listed among Hallstein's children or grandchildren, but would have been their contemporary.

I think it is imperative to consider the circumstanses at the time being.

Hallstein was a noble man with a long, outstanding career solely in Norway. His use of his own name on official documents could be inflected by the Norwegian nametradition to avoid misunderstandings.

If we take on the premise that Torlack Schenk came as nobility from another country, his use of his own name could be inflected by the other countrys nametradition.

The burden of proof in my opinion would be fullfilled if the name of Schenk is connected to the coat of arms that is used by Hallstein.

http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/regest_vise_tekst.prl?b=1...=

There is a Norwegian authorative historian that have collected the documents of Sudereyar under the Norwegian kings, Regesta Sudoriensia. This is not digitalized yet, but there could be sources there to clarify if the theory made by the mentioned professors in history.

Until then I rely on their judgment, and withhold my complaints against the actions made by curator Pedersen.

Harald : jeg ser Olav Nicolaussons segl nr 134, 135 og 140", han er i genitreet som Skanke.

Hva står det under Nr 46 : "og skulle det være de rette skancker " ? Denne ligner vel mer på barfodvåpenet.

Det er større likhet på nr 12, men jeg klarer ikke å lese beskrivelsen til den. Noen som kan hjelpe ?

Harald : you can not change the meaning of a word in an interpretetation.

It is proven that the coat of arms for Skanke from around 1360 until today consists of one leg, but the meaning of the name points towards multiple legs.

This is proof of connection between persons with one leg in their coat of arms and persons with more than one leg in their coat of arms.

The theory of the change in the coat of arms is based on the conviction of Nils Hallsteinsson :

http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/regest_vise_tekst.prl?b=5...=

The coat of arms is changed in the next generation, and the name Skanke is used again, probably because of the shameful deed made by the convicted : no worse sin was known in the catholic church than to kill a human being.

Stein Åge, I use "skanke" as a singular, and "skanker" as a plural. It seems that dialects and languages vary.
I'm still waiting for a reference that shows unambiguously that "skanke" has been used as a plural, the way Bokmålsordboken showed that "skanke" wasn't the correct current normalized Norwegian usage for the singular.
The Norwegian wikipedia says that there's a theory out there that the Skanke coat of arms was based on having the name Skanke - a "speaking coat of arms". No reference, unfortunately.

Murder was a fairly common occurence in those days. This must have been a fairly prominent murder, since it was so expensive to pay his way out of it.
Whose theory is the theory that the coat of arms changed because of this?

Correction: We do have a citation that "skanke" is a plural in contemporary Danish. Thanks for that!

With regards to the history of Skankes in Jämtland (Frøsøn at Østersund, Häckås, Øsa, Brunflo, Østnor and so on), the authorative historian is professor Ahnlund, both ancestral and historical. He worked in the mid 1900s.
Skankeforeningen i Sverige, www.skanke.se, was constituted partly on the grounds of his work.
There is a great interest of the history of the Skankes in Jämtland, because of the consequential "reign" of the family as "landshøvding" for many centuries. They were active in the wars between Sweden and Denmark with the people of Jämtland alongside, so the history of the Skankes is the history of mideaval Jâmtland.Their power vanished mainly with the reformation, but they sustained leading positions into the 17th century.
The story of the Skankes connection with Isle of Man is an oral tradition in Jämtland.

Regarding the name Þórlæifr, Þórlæikr, it would be very easy to actually make a writing mistake, about Skanke, it does suggest plural, because skank is singular.

Well, since there are just a tiny fraction of a chance to make you change your mind who locked the father to this profile, Hallstein Torleivsson at least, in order to not look wet, please change his father to Torleiv N.N. because, that was the fathers name, after you have managed to do that you make a new unknown father "N.N." to Torleiv and then in THAT profile you write " Torleivs parents are unknown please do not add parents to Torleiv".

That would be a good idea, although the current profile for Torleiv should probably be changed to Torlack, disconnected from his parents, and also locked.

Then it will be easy to make a note in Torleiv that there is a theory he is the same as Torlack, and a note in Torlack that there is a theory he is the same as Torleiv.

Agree Justin, in that way we don't completely "hijack" one profile known from the patronymic the son had. Maybe some future DNA test may resolve the path later on.

I don't know how we can ever reach agreement on this Skanke slekt issue without a critical DNA study. Without it we are just discussing how and why our religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are true. For Ulf, you, like me are already related to the Isle of Man Norse through our common Holch, Karmarch, and Alstadthaug slekts (if we accept the connections here on Geni to be valid). It seems like a hollow argument for us unless we want to argue for arguments sake. We may want to be purists about Torleif or Torlak and their possible connections with Man on Geni. But regardless of what we do here, the connections will still continue to be made through Hallstein Thorleifsen and the Isle of Man on Ancestry.com. So what to do? Let's just encourage the Skanke family association in Norway and distant descendants on the Isle of Mann to shed some blood or just saliva for a critical lab to analyze.

Well, now I am looking forward to see the same engagement from the curators Justin Swanstrøm, Harald Tveit Alvestrand and Remi Trygve Pedersen on the geniprofiles of the norwegian knight
Vigleik Audunsson (from appr 1300) who allegededly is the son of
Audun Vigleiksson who allegedly is the son of
Audun Toreson Borg. The basis is according to the latter profile :
"Den åttebladede rose ble brukt av sudreimsætten og også av herr Audun Hugleiksson, og det peker mot felles opphav i Audun i Borg."
The basis of these connections (the coat of arms) are acording to the above curators opinion too thin, and the geni profiles should be corrected and locked. If your answer is that you cant be bothered, I rest my case.
My conclusion is that your attempt as curators to correct the established connections for HT is ridiculous, abusive and adds no real correction whatsoever.

Stein,

I'd be interested in seeing the evidence. Start a public discussion from that profile and tag me so I see it.

If you believe any curator has abused their power, please open a complaint with Customer Service.

But I think you did saw the one evidence, ( I just had to dive in again), I did post a note in this thread with noble families that had legs in the shield, only one nordic family, the Schanke had 3 legs, all the rest only had one. One or maybe two of them were related to Schanke, one from Germany had a total different etymological reason behind their leg, the 3 legged version are from a swastika symbol, called triskelion, the German at the other hand had their leg from the fact that they had been servants, schenkes, hence, one leg. Barfod, comes most likely from Schanke.

Beenvaaben are most likely just because of the name from the leg protection made by metal they used, could be just more or less random but goes in the same group as Steenvær, Steinwehr.

Families with one leg in their coat of armour.

1. Beenvaaben, Known (-1394-1449-). Jylland

2. Fod, Known (-1553-1684-). Sydjylland

3. von Lüskow,Known (-1311-1778-). Vorpommern

4. Schinkel, Known (-1496-1611-). Pommern

5. Skanke, Known (-1394-1498-). Norge

6. Steenvær, Known (-1370-1424-). Pommern

7. Steinwehr, Known (-1370-1424-) Holstein

With 3 legs

8. Jean "Baudrain" de La Heuze

9. Guillaume Montagu, Comte de Salisbury

10. King of Mann

11. Halstein Thorleifssön

This above by me, are a direct parallel to this you wrote, and have an equivalent value.
Private

"Den åttebladede rose ble brukt av sudreimsætten og også av herr Audun Hugleiksson, og det peker mot felles opphav i Audun i Borg."

Justin, the process starts with one of the curators cutting off the link between these historical persons.
Then maybe one or more of the profile administrators (in HTs case it is 87) reacts in a public discussion and an argue starts in a more or less polite manner. Historians conclusions made the last couple of hundred years are superseded.
The result of the argue is that no curator will alter anything, why should they meet any request from annoying profile administrators ?
This time I recommend that either David Howden or Harald Tveit Alvestrand does the actual cut off, to ease the burden on Remi Trygve Pedersen.

No, Stein. The process starts with someone starting a discussion about whether the line should be cut. Naturally, you can tag whichever curator(s) you prefer.

Well Justin, I dont think you have percepted the cut off about Hallstein Torleivssons parents. The connection was cut by a curator before this thread, and 87 profile administrators was wronged ?
No, I would like to see the same determination with regards to other historical persons from the same age : lets start With Audun Vigleiksson, he is mentioned in the same regest as HT.
The ball is in our park.

Stein,

As I've already said, if you want a discussion about Audun Vigleiksson, you need to start it from his profile.

Justin, I am not interested in a discussion about this profile, I like to see that one of you curators cut off the parents lines first, then it is time for discussion, if any. I think the ball is in your park, right Remy Trygve Pedersen ?
I understand now that neither you nor any of your colleges are really interested in this profile, so the obvious flaw is accepted by you curators. I then like to remind you that Audun i Borg was the pater familias of the mother of Håkon Håkonsson, the norwegian king that stars the recent movie "Birkebeinerne".
By the way : is there any message going out to the profile administrators for Hallstein Torleivsson on Geni, 87 of them, that their connection to HTs parents is proven wrong by curators on Geni ?

Stein, I think it might be helpful for you to understand better how Geni works.

Curators are volunteers who work on lines that interest them, but also volunteer to respond to questions and problems that other users have when they feel able to help.

For example, I have a particular interest in Gallo-Roman lines. That means I often work in that area, cleaning up the tree and fixing problems. It does not mean I personally guarantee every line is accurate 100 percent of the time. In fact, I can spend 4 to 5 hours a day working in that area and never get everything fixed, because there are thousands of problems in the medieval tree and users keep making changes.

If you had a problem in that area, you might contact me or post a public message. I would probably help if I had time and if I had information that would help you. You could not reasonably expect that you have the right to demand that I do the research for you or demand that I fix every problem instantly.

It is the same here.

When someone edits a profile, every manager and follower gets a notice in their news feed. When there is a discussion that tags the profile, like this one, every manager and follower, is flagged to follow it.

This is how i thought it is working, but you are truly more engaged in the ancestry of Hallstein Torleivsson, why ?
You must understand that it is a problem for outstanders that this volunteer work does not go as far as taking responsibility of the actions done by curators.
You must understand that when you cut the connection between Torlack Scenck and Hallstein Torleivsson, you dismantle the origin of the famous name from Geni.
Would it not be correct to keep Torlack (thorleifr or thorleikr) as father of Hallstein on Geni ?
The proof is the surname and the coat of arms, and see Ulf Martinsons comment about the contemporary use of coat of arms ?
Seriously ?

Stein,

I'm not sure it matters why I am interested, but it is no problem to tell you. I am interested in medieval history. Most of the lines where I work are not my ancestors, or they are only my ancestors in someone's fantasy.

I took a break from working on my Master's degree many years ago, but in the past 6 months I have started working again. My thesis is about the invention of false genealogies and fictive relationships in the Middle Ages. The problem of Torlack Scenck, Hallstein Torleivsson, and the kings of Mann is exactly the kind problem that always interests me.

The comments you are making show you do not really understand yet what it means to cut a relationship on Geni. You said above "connection to HTs parents is proven wrong by curators on Geni". That's not true at all. The connection is not "proven wrong". The connection is cut pending some real evidence.

And you said, " this volunteer work does not go as far as taking responsibility of the actions done by curators." This is also a serious misunderstanding. The reasons for cutting the relationships here have been explained at length. Your real complaint seems to be that curators are not jumping in to look at every problem, but you do not think it is your job to start the discussions.

Hi!

I think it is a bit of a clash in different methods here, regarding how to interpret the history and situations. One side has a threshold of enough forensic evidence aka nature science.. - and one more social science with evidence and circumstantials etc..

I agree with you both..

How do we do If we want to build trees - where one just has to start somewhere and take it from there?

When we are buildings puzzles that are not yet finished.

Should we have a shadow tree aswell - that is not yet finished?

Maybe we could use a term for NOT SURE - as the (FICT) that was used before.. And that we always should be really clear what sources we are using and sources sources.

(Im sure we could discuss like you are doing now with many of the profiles as the families go together so much - and that they owned lands in many different places so that a person from Bohuslän for example is Interpreted as coming from Trondheim - just because he owned lands in Trondheim and previous researchers (national researchers and old sources) didnt have acces to areas outside Norway.. but were Norweigan at that time.

The same for Swedish and Danish families going over borders of today )

And this area in particular, Jãmtland, was Norwegian until the mid-1600s... the families didn't even have to move, the borders moved around them!

In this case, we have reasonable sources for both the existence of Torlack Schenk and for Hallstein Torleivsson, so the [fict] convention wouldn't work. We've discussed many times the possibility of tagging a link with our degree of trust in it, but until such a thing comes along from the Geni developers, we have to make a judgment call on what to represent on the tree.

Given that it's a judmgent call, we shouldn't expect everyone to agree. That's why we have discussions.