Hallstein Torleivsson - The connection between the deposed king of Isle of Man and the noble Skanke family i Norway, Sweden and Denmark

As Harald points out, flat gravestones with an inscription along the edge and a human figure in the middle is a common medieval type. I don't know what would make the style of this stone "Celtic" unless it might be the "triangular" shape, or perhaps the style of lettering.

I couldn't find anything about that in any of my books on medieval art and iconography. If it's true, I would be very interested in reading more.

However, we don't really need to know whether the style in Celtic in order to know how to analyze a question like this one.

It's a relatively straightforward problem of looking to see whether there is a statistical correlation. How many and what percentage of gravestones in this period are this type in (a) Hebrides, (b) Jämtland, and (c) Skancke family. Then ask whether this type of gravestone is more likely to appear in the Hebrides than in Jämtland, and whether the Skancke family are more likely to use it than other Jämtland families.

Finally, we should keep in mind that the cultural sensibilities around medieval art were very different than contemporary art, which is far more self-conscious.

From what we know, most experts think that medieval patrons expected to exercise control over the craftsmen who executed their commissions in different ways than modern patrons.

Although the evidence is indirect, it seems likely that a typical medieval patron would leave more of the details of execution to the craftsman than a modern patron. You chose a craftsman, ordered a gravestone, specified the general size, and provided an inscription. Everything else was probably up to the craftsman, including the problem of finding the right stone and hoping to shave a bit off the cost by using what was easily available.

I think that typical Celtic gravestones have a lot of Celtic knots, sun wheels and triangle shapes on them, it would of course have been fun to actually compare that mentioned skanke stone with known contemporary Celtics ditto.

And of course the pre-eminent Celtic style is the monument in the form of a Celtic cross.

If the Skancke gravestones were Celtic crosses, we might have something truly astounding ;)

But really, the idea of a Celtic influence is somewhat odd considering what it is intended to prove. The whole point is that the Skancke family would be heirs of a dynasty of Norwegian sub-kings who went to Norway when Man was taken by Scotland.

It seems nonsensical that the Norwegian kings of Man would be so influenced by Celtic culture that they would prefer Celtic styles and even take them to Norway.

The monument of Ønd Pederson is in fact a grave pour (gravhelle). We know that later generasjons in the Skanke family followed this tradition. It is so rare that it is put on display inside the Frøsø kyrka.

The Celtic cross represents the celtic church wich was not a part of the roman-catholic church in Norway and the Isle of Man. The celtic burial tradition of inscripted grave pours is another topic.

https://www.geni.com/projects/Isle-of-Man-Monumental-Inscriptions-C...

So no documented Celticness for Önd, then?
The link didn't contain any gravestone tradition info I could see on it, so that wasn't very helpful.

I didn't know the word gravhelle, so I had to do some reading. It seems to mean what we call in English a grave slab. And that's exactly what the picture shows and what we're talking about.

A grave slab is a flat stone, laid horizontally, covering the grave, as distinguished from a headstone and a footstone. It used to be called a gravestone, but now gravestone is a generic word that includes all three.

Grave slabs were very common throughout Western Europe in this period. They were usually used when someone was buried under the church floor rather than in the church yard. Being buried in the church itself was a matter of status, and the nearer the altar the better.

Then, just for the record -- the Celtic church WAS part of the Roman Catholic church. Everywhere.

There is a controversial idea the Celtic and Roman churches might have been somewhat separate before the Synod of Whitby in 664 but that was hundreds of years before this time.

The earliest Celtic cross monuments are from the 9th century. There is no reason, except local custom, why anyone in Europe couldn't have had a Celtic cross monument if they could afford it. It just would never occur to anyone to do something so radical and not part of the usual local practices.

Justin : a reality check for you regarding the celtic church :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Christianity

Harald : Jon Leirfall, the renowned norwegian MP and historian has written a book called "Tusen år på Man. Sagaøya i Irskesjøen", Samlaget 1979. He describes the burial traditions. I was looking for a possible English translation of the book, but I found no references to it. The publisher did not know either.

Stein, I think you want to dig a bit deeper. Maybe read the link you posted ;)

Here's a quote from that article:

"However, modern scholars have identified problems with all of these claims, and find the term "Celtic Christianity" problematic in and of itself. The idea of a "Celtic Church" is roundly rejected by modern scholars due to the lack of substantiating evidence."

That's why I said above that it is a controversial idea. You can probably walk into any bookstore and find a dozen popular books promoting "Celtic Christianity" and you might notice that they all look a lot like New Age books. Then, you can look over at the academic materials and see widespread derision.

Jon Leirfall's book is here: http://urn.nb.no/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2011052308128

Just tell me which pages you are referring to where the burial traditions are described, I can check!

(the section from page 68, entitled "The Stone Crosses", is a rich description of standing stones, which, unlike the purely Celtic crosses of Ireland, had the cross engraved into the top rather than jutting from the top of the stone. Rich imagery seems to have been a frequent part of the crosses, unlike the text-only style of Önd's stone.)

Justin: the Celtic Church is at least marked by its crosses. I do not think that it is likely that the Norwegian bishop at the Isle of Man would approve the use of any symbol from the competing liturgy from Ireland ?

Harald : your translation or your interpretation is not well done. The direct translation of the text is : "They (the norwegians) took up the celtish form with a flat rectangular stone slab."

"From the home country, the Norwegians had brought the tradition of raising "standing stones at the burn" in memory of the dead. The Celts had the same tradition, but they had moved the stones into the churchyards."

The image on page 74 shows a stone richly engraved on both sides.

These are all standing stones.

Stein, you have to consider the dates. You ask if the Norwegian bishop at the Isle of Man would approve the use of any symbol from the competing liturgy from Ireland. But, in this period we are not talking about a competing church. After 669 they were the same church.

Before the Tridentine Mass in 1570 Europe was a patchwork of rites and uses that were all variations on the Roman Rite. The order of the service was mostly the same, but there were differences in the prayers for each part of the service. They weren't always the same even in the same jurisdiction. There was nothing that would prevent a symbol used in one jurisdiction from being employed in another jurisdiction.

The only stone I could find on the net belonged to his brother Karl Pedersson, and it is very worn down as the stone have been used as a doorstep into the church.
http://www.espell.se/saga/gravhall.jpg

Harald : ?

Justin : I think you understand my point.

I think I do, but I'm hoping I don't ;)

Stein, I think we have the claim earlier that the Frösön stone is a stone slab intended to lay down horizontally, such as in a church floor.
All the references we have so far to Celtic gravestones and Man gravestones decipts them as standing stones.
A standing stone is not a horizontal stone. So it's hard for me to figure out what, if anything, makes Õnd's stone a "Celtic style" stone.
You made that claim. You need to substantiate it - explain what you mean by it, and show that at least one other person in the world supports the claim.
That should be an absolute minimum in order to even consider accepting something as "true".

Harald, please forgive me, but this constitutes ridiculous attempts. In order to verifiy theories, we need actual scientific work done.
For example : If your counterargument is that there must be a cultural difference between a standing and a lying gravestone, you must show reference to actual scientific work done with regards to the difference. You have made none such attempts.
I am not sure if Ønds stone is a standing or a lying stone. The point is that it is flat an rectangular. So far, the book from Jon Leirfall shows that the norwegians at the Isle of Man took up the celtish tradition of making flat and rectangular gravestones. Ta-ta ! We have an indication that the stone could be made in inspiration of norwegians who have a connection to the Isle of Man. And certainly many other cultures.

Stein Aage, I don't understand your argument.

The picture shows a grave slab. If you've ever seen one they're easy to recognize. Grave slabs lay flat, usually on the floor of a church.

It is in a style that was common throughout Europe in this period. It is not specifically Celtic -- unless there is something Celtic about the trapezoid shape.

If the grave slab for Ønd did show a Celtic influence, that would tell us about the craftsman who made it, not anything about the family that commissioned it.

Grave slabs were eventually replaced by smaller monumental brasses (for the rich) and headstones (for the not-so-rich). I have a collection of framed medieval brass rubbings. Some of them are in this same style. I don't have any rubbings from grave slabs, because they would be too large to frame.

Here is an article that gives a simple explanation:
http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/Brasses%20&%20Slabs.html

Here are some pictures of grave slabs from outside Britain. Notice the one from Denmark 1485:
http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/Foreign%20incised%20slabs.html

And here are some monumental brasses from outside Britain. Notice the one from the duke of Sagan 1304:
http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/Foreign%20incised%20slabs.html

Then here is a Welsh grave slab from 1306:
http://www.popphotos.net/media/BGtwWIghYqA

And here is one from Scotland 1415:
http://www.popphotos.net/media/BOAsyR_Aw-y

Now compare those with this one from the Hebrides 13th century:
http://www.popphotos.net/media/BQYlCVHj_lz

And these from Kilmartin:
http://www.popphotos.net/media/BPltBaqB-Hn

http://www.popphotos.net/media/BPlrzfPBwwJ

Finally, this one from Argyll 15th century:
http://www.popphotos.net/media/BPlrzfPBwwJ

Do you see the common styles? The differences?

Stein-Åge, your reading of Leirfall is strange.
Leirfall noted that a difference between the Norse gravestones on Man and the Celtic gravestones was that the Celtic gravestones usually had the cross sticking out on top, while the Nordic gravestones usually had the cross inscribed on the top of the slab.
Where you get from that that "flat and rectangular" was a property of Celtic gravestones is beyond me.

Justin : in my opinion the stone from Scotland 1415 is quite scimilar to Ønds stone, that is : no crosses, text in the frame and picturizing the actual person.
Harald : I have translated the sentence in this thread above, page 68 last paragraph, second sentence in Jon Leirfalls book.

All of the links have at least one stone that is similar to Ønd's. That's the point. This was a common European style for hundreds of years.

The one of the duke of Sagan is particularly interesting, both because it is outside Britain and it is much earlier than Ønd's stone -- yet it has all your criteria:
http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/Continental%20Brasses.html

Stein Aage, I meant to say that it's beyond me where you got that "flat and rectangular" was a *distinguishing* feature of Celtic gravestones (as opposed to other gravestone traditions). Apologies for the lack of precision.

I know that this is sort of beating a dead dog, but I am new to DNA and I had one time hoped that DNA clues for the Isle of Man might come from such data. I recently joined the FamilyTreeDNA Norge research group an have a lot to learn. This morning I noticed that the classification had been refined to be I-Z74 from I-M253. When looking at the site's SNP map, one of the few sites shown was centered on the Isle of Man. As I said I'm new to DNA, so maybe others of you wit better information could help me. For me, my connection to the Schanke family is through my female line so the Y-DNA can't be that route. Just looking for other ideas.
Curt

I like the yfull Y-haplogroup tree best, because it's easiest to navigate and gives the information I want.
Using it, you'll find https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z74/ - which tells you that I-Z74 had its most recent common ancestor approximately 4100 years before present (approx 2100 BC).

This is well before the Migration Period of 500-800 AD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period) - it's likely that most of the descendants of the I haplogroups were members of "northern" tribes, but it's far too far back to say anything about a descent via Isle of Man vs a descent via Sweden, Iceland, Norway or Denmark.

The Skancke clan in Sweden seems to think that the best theory for the haplogroup of the Skancke male ancestor is R1b-S6989 (https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skancke) - so you don't share a common male ancestor with them within the last 48.000 years (https://www.yfull.com/tree/IJK/ is a common ancestor between the two).

Curt I am connected there as well through a preachers daughter in Seljord. There are many who are related through autosomal possibly and trace back through known families. We connect via family of a priest the Danes beheaded for not being a nice person. Jon Mogensson Schanke.

https://www.sprakochfolkminnen.se/download/18.5850f85e15732ead0b31a...

Gillstad

I was reading about old names and grammar. How names change..

*Gela av ett fsv. mansnamn *Gele. Detta kunde vara bildat till ett fsv.
adj. *gel, motsvarande sv. dial. gel, gail m.m. 'glad, munter, livlig;
brunstig' men skulle också kunna vara en kortform till sådana fsv.
personnamn som Gerlef och Gerlak med tidigt bortfall av r framför I
liksom i fornnorskan, där former som Geilaughr, Gelaughr för Geirlaugr, Geileifuer för Geirleifr, Gceilceik (ack.) för Geirleik icke äro
sällsynta; se Lind, Dopn., sp. 314 f. S. led, är urspr. pluralform av
stad möjl. i betydelsen 'boplats'.

Gerleif and Gerlak

The same with Torleif and Torlack (Torlak) aswell then..

Not far away from Torquil (the Macleod) either perhaps.. :)

Any news regarding DNA tests? (skanke - macleods etc)

Also, how significant are any family finder tests - Ftdna.. with some kind of lock out method.. to see patterns ?