Hallstein Torleivsson - The connection between the deposed king of Isle of Man and the noble Skanke family i Norway, Sweden and Denmark

What sources do you think we can find that experts haven't already found?

One of the things that dismays me about this discussion is that most of participants have never read about other families in this same area so they have no idea of the complexities and uncertainties.

It's very common for families in Orkney and the Hebrides to have ties to Norway, to engage in political games of playing the Norwegian kings against the Scottish kings, to retreat to Norway when defeated, etc. And, the uncertainty of the sources is massive. There is uncertainty whether "this man" in "this source" might be the same as "that man" in "that source" There are traditional lines that can't be right, and that contradict each other, and there are speculative lines that could be right but no one can be sure because there are other ways to re-arrange the relationships that also could be right.

Look at this article on Somerled, and notice the three different charts that show the main theories for this connection to the Scottish royal family:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled

Or look at the literature on Snaekollr, supposed ancestor of Clan Gunn:Snaekollr Eiríksson
http://clangunn.weebly.com/why-gunns-are-not-of-norse--orkney-desce...

Then there is the problem of the MacLeod ancestry:
http://www.clanmacleod.org/genealogy/macleod-genealogy-research/the...

If you read enough of these articles, you begin to see how complicated the questions are, and how little help there is in contemporary sources.

One of the most noticeable things about the Skanke claim is that the discussion seems to take place in a vacuum, with no real understanding of what else was going on what other families claim, and what sources exist or don't exist.

David, maybe this is what I was thinkíng about aswell when I talked about the genetic thing.. if we could see if the skanckes have this:?

"Since the early 2000s, several genetic studies have been conducted on men bearing surnames traditionally associated with patrilineal descendants of Somerled. The results of one such study, published in 2004, revealed that five chiefs of Clan Donald, who all traced their patrilineal descent from Somerled, were indeed descended from a common ancestor.[162][note 20] Further testing of men bearing the surnames MacAlister, MacDonald, and MacDougall, found that, of a small sample group, 40% of MacAlisters, 30% of MacDougalls, and 18% of MacDonalds shared this genetic marker.[163] These percentages suggest that Somerled may have almost 500,000 living patrilineal descendants.[164][note 21] The results of a later study, published in 2011, revealed that, of a sample of 164 men bearing the surname MacDonald, 23% carried the same marker borne by the clan chiefs. This marker was identified as a subgroup of haplogroup R1a,[167] known to be extremely rare in Celtic-speaking areas of Scotland, but very common in Norway.[168] Both genetic studies concluded that Somerled's patrilineal ancestors originated in Scandinavia.[169]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled#cite_note-183

Or any other similar, but other kind of marker that distingueshes the Skanke.

Justin, yes, I agree. But we can actually think ourselves, from an amateur perspective. When we do, we learn. And if we learn we could come up with something new aswell. Who knows.

To take the discussion out of the vacuum aswell.

On page 13, Justin, quoting David, said "> Well the Project has so far tested 7 with supposed paternal lineage back to Skanke.
So far: Mjälle-ätten (I-Z58) and Ope-ätten (I-S4795) has haplogroup I1. Five descendants of Karl Pedersson is R1b, the descendant of Joan of Sanne is R1a."

So we have at least 4 incompatible candidates for the "Skanke marker". We can be fairly certain that 3 of these are not male-line descendants of the original Skanke (whoever he was).

About the Somerled story: The farthest-down-the-tree marker I've found mentioned in this context is M17 (mentioned at http://macdougall.org/our-heritage-2/our-heritage/somerled/), which is, according to https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M198/, estimated to have a latest common ancestor 8500 years ago. So we need slightly more refinement to find a marker unique to Somerled.

Well if the Somerled-haplogroup is R1a, then Skanke is certainly not descendants in paternal line. The problem with trying to construct a likely haplogroup for Somerled based on Family names traditionally Associated is the same as trying to reconstruct the Y-DNA of Gangerolv "Rollo" purely based on the same type of material. Several of my Y-DNA are Scottish and one of my very close Big-Y-matches is McLeod and McQueen. Both clans have several different haplogroups, its very hard to distinguise which of these are the main McLeods and McQueen purely based on which haplogroup is most common. The reason is because that the surname was often used by several families linked by patronage etc. where one Family was the chieftains. My McQueen matches belongs to the Chieftain-clan, but very few McLeods are of my branch..

I think they've taken Somerled's line down to R-Z284.

http://clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-after-somerled

http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/index.php/dna-project

Remember though, Somerled was a Crovan son-in-law. There is no suggestion the Skanke family is descended from him.

Also: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

These markers.. like 11 12 19 21 17 16 17 18 34 39 12 11 (37 marker panel)

Can they go autosomal too? mixed, man woman and down? It dissappears the further away in generations, right?

Justin, Skanke could have married the Macrorys for example. They have Somerled-genetic

Not exactly.

These numbers represent STR markers on a yDNA panel. The Skankes could have married the Macrorys (for example) but that wouldn't change their yDNA.

Early generations after that marriage might have had some autosomal DNA traceable to Somerled by it would have washed out after about 5 to 8 generations.

David, it seems you and I might have similar interests. I got interested in these families 45 years ago because of a family tradition the Svanströms were originally Scots. One of the ideas floating around is that we are descended from the MacSwans of Roag (~McQueens), who claimed to belong to the same stock as the MacLeods.

There's no particular reason for that to be true, and the DNA suggests it isn't. Still, it was enough to form an interest ;)

So, markers cant tell us anything, not in combination with yDNA either. Because i guess there has to be something that distinguishes the yDNA. Several people can have the same yDna but come from different families? So to guess that a certain profile 20 generations ago is related just because he has the same yDNA, is a little bit unsecure aswell? In other words, to find proofs that your are talking about. Not even DNA can fix that for us.

You might be right Johan, so maybe we have to set our trust in some new spectacular archaeological findings that throws some new light on this matter, but I still think that the line to Man is plausible and that the first exiles pretty soon were divided into two groups, one ending up in Jämtland, the other in Bohuslän, all within two generation and that in turn have made me think that a plausible explanation could be that Torleiv was married twice, where the second wife's children stayed in the southern part Viken. Yes, I also might be the only one suggesting that Torlack was the father of Torleiv, and that the mother was the daughter of Olaf "the Black", King of Isle of Man, Torleiv likely born around 1250, which makes a better explanation to all the children named Torleivsson and none named Torlacksson, instead of suggesting that Torlack and Torleiv were one and the same. This solution adjust the lines to be more chronological credible and if this solution had been set up in this way in the beginning, we could have had a plausible line represented here on Geni, not proven, but almost impossible to disprove.

Thanks Ulf. I am confused. Very confused. That is why it is fun to try to get wise in all this. Much confusion - will lead to big wisdom. Less confusion will lead to little wisdom.
;)

Johan, the yDNA answer is simple but not easy. When you compare the data for a bunch of different men, it's fairly easy to group them according to how long ago (approximately) their common ancestor lived.

Men who are in the same haplogroup (R1a, R1b, I1, etc.) have a common ancestor who lived many thousands of years ago. Say in the Stone Age. Men in the same haplogroup who have a high number of matching markers have a more recent common ancestor. The common ancestor can be dated approximately.

So, when David tells us there are 7 Skanke men in the project and they fall into 3 haplogroups, we know right away that they are 3 different families. They can't be all descended from Torleiv in the male line and the yDNA can't tell which family (if any) is the real male line. If they are really descended from Torliev, 2 or maybe all 3 must be descended through a woman.

That's why it would be so significant if one of the Skanke families had yDNA matches in Scotland, Ireland, or northern England. The Crovan dynasty ruled in that area for a few hundred years. There must have been unknown illegitimate sons and some of those sons would have living descendants. If there were, say 3 or 4 families from the Hebrides whose yDNA closely matched one of the Skanke families that would be good (but circumstantial) evidence the Skanke ancestor lived in that area.

Johan Lindqvist we don't know the DNA of the profile 20 generations ago (unless we have ancient DNA samples, which we don't have in this case). If the Y-DNA matches, we know that we have *a* common ancestor on the male line, but we don't know that it's *this* common ancestor.

Traditional genealogy can give us a plausible theory on who the common ancestor is. But the true common ancestor might not be the one we think it is. DNA can estimate the distance to the common ancestor, but on the timescale of a thousand years, the "clock" can be wrong by a couple of centuries.

Maybe it is an idea for the two Skanke-foreninger in Norway and Sweden to send a petition to exhume the oldest graves they know of that most certainly are a male persons of the Skanke-family at the time they lived, and try to get som y-dna from their bones. Ønd Pederson was burried at Frösö Church, but his stone is removed from his grave and put inside the church, so where his bones are burried is probably unknown today.

By doing it this way, preferably with several graves, there will be made a Reference y-dna that most probably belongs to the Skanke-family.

How possible it is to do this, though, is another question.

While we're waiting for them to dig up someone, one thing the Skanke men could do is join other DNA projects. The Scottish yDNA project, the Scandinavian yDNA project, the Isles of the Hebrides project, the Viking yDNA project, the Viking & Invader yDNA...

Anything and everything that could provide a broader perspective on their origin and distribution.

Thanks everybody. I just would like to give a tip to see the Outlander series. About Scottish clans. Very good. It is also about the Fraser clan - which is one of the clans going back to Norse-gael familys?

Anyways, see also this small clip about Isle of man, in the end there are some symbols from the House of keys? The triskelion and the Crovan boat symbol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8agN05xQM-w

(google translate from Danish below)

"Tynwald er blevet holdt siden da ved en gammel bronzealderhøj midt på øen, og ceremonierne var i begyndelsen stærkt præget af den hedenske religion med påkaldelse af bl.a. Frej, guden for frugtbarhed, Njord, guden for navigation og lykke og med tordenguden Thor som den fornemste gud. Tinget holdtes hvert år ved midsommer den 24. juni, da man tændte en symbolsk ild for den nordiske gud Balder og hans keltiske modstykke Lugh"

http://barfod-barfoed.dk/stamtavle1/forhistorien/

A reason for the the symbol of the triskelion?

Also, In Geni and other places they say that Olav Nilsson Skancke was married to a Ragnhild Mcrory. ( Thorleif Haraldsson was married to another hild - Magnhild, typical Norse and Norse-Gael) Could this come from the Mac Ruaidhrí clan? Perhaps a daughter to Raghnall Mac Ruaidhrí (b ca 1350). And Mikkel Barfod who apparantly married an Emma Mcrory (b ca 1320). Daughter of Ragnhalls sister Amie Mcrory?

Coincidense? From high society class or just an ordinary Mcrory?

Later the dominions of the Clann Ruaidhrí territories were absorbed within Clann Domhnaill Lordship of the Isles after Raghnall's death in 1346. Which later became the territories of the Mcdonalds. (From the Domhnalls)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raghnall_Mac_Ruaidhr%C3%AD

An Amie MacRuari married John of Islay, Lord of the Isles. (From the Domhnalls)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_of_Garmoran

(google translate from Danish below)

"Som det ses viser stamtavlen også, at Mikkels bror Olof blev gift med en datter af baronen på Talgø, og at de havde to sønner, nemlig Nils, der blev gift med Ragnhild, og Gunner, der levede på 1390-tallet. Hertil må endvidere føjes, at der ved Ragnhilds navn står et våbenmærke med en dobbelt trekant, d.v.s. 2 trekanter sat med spidserne med hinanden. Dette våbenmærke anvendte Nils Mikelsen Barfod i Randers også på sit segl fra 1406. Man finder ofte på denne tid et sådant mærke anvendt af borgere, der ikke havde noget våben, men det kan altså også have tilknytning til et adeligt våbenmærke, som det nok har været tilfældet her. Samtidig med at Harald flygtede fra Isle of Man til Norge, rejste nemlig også en adelsmand Mc. Rory hertil. Han var af klanhøvdingeslægten Mac Donald af Inchegal, og hans efterkommere førte som våbenmærke den samme dobbelte trekant. Når også Nils Mikkelsen Barfod brugte den dobbelte trekant kan det da muligvis være fordi hans mor var af slægten Mac Rory ligesom Nils Olofsen."

http://barfod-barfoed.dk/stamtavle1/forhistorien/

Just to build theory.. DNA seems difficult.

There has been a long time without any argumentation amongst us amateurs regarding the connections between the Skankes and the norse nobles from the Isle of Man. Tonight on Norwegian TV (NRK1) at the popular show "Anno" one can study a skanke- descendant, Egil R.Moe, imposing a Knight from the 16th Century, wearing the heraldics of the triskelion (Hallstein Torleivsson) and full tournament armor, weapon and horse. Just to lit up a little fire in this tread...
I am sorry to say that the discussion so far has been centered around the possibilities of the DNA-science, not so much the factual historical findings of the traditional historians who in the first place made these connections.
Ønd Pedersons burial stone from 1397 at Frøsø kyrka is made in a celtic burial tradition (check his geniprofile for pictures). There is no other reasonable explanation than that his family at a given period had adopted the tradition somewhere. Celts were at this time mainly situated in Ireland, and the manx population is known to use the same burial tradition as in Ireland.

The previous time the Skanke line was featured on "Anno", they pointed to the Røros line, which one of the participants was descended from. Unfortunately there's an Y-DNA mismatch between the Røros line and the two other branches claiming descent from the same father, so it seems that there's an unacknowledged female link in the relationship of the Røros skankes to the other Skankes.

So not all the stuff presented on "Anno" matches current evidence-based research.

Do you have a reference to a historian who observes that the stone is "in the Celtic tradition"?
Sorry, but I don't have background to judge for myself which tradition the stone pictured on https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000000236700393?album_type=phot... belongs to.

Harald : you are enquiring in a professionals manner. Geni is not for professionals, as the majority of paying customers are amateurs. If you like to investigate closely into the research of the traditional historians, the best way to start is professor Nils Ahnlunds "Jämtland og Härjedalens historie". A popular norwegian work about the norse settlements at Man is Jon Leirfalls "Tusen år på Man. Sagaøya i Irskesjøen, 1979".

We do strive to raise the average standard of behavior on Geni :-)

Unfortunately nb.no doesn't have the Ahnlund book - it seems to be published in Swedish. Google Books has it, but not accessible: https://books.google.se/books?id=ZQhWvgAACAAJ&dq=nils+ahnlund&a...

There's an antique bookshop in Oslo that's willing to sell a set for NOK 2400,- - that seems like a little too much to invest in order to find an answer to whether or not he says that "the stone is in the Celtic tradition" (and if it's possible to figure out what he means by that).

Perhaps they have it at the local library.

The celtish tradition of flat, rektangular burial stones with complementary texting is still alive in Ireland. The texting has developed into an art of black humor, known worldwide.

You didn't answer the question.
I've seen lots of flat, rectangular burial stones with text on them - in Italy, England, Germany, Norway and other places. It is the natural shape to use when the grave is in the middle of the floor of a church. I'm asking whether any historian has made the claim that Ønd Peterson's stone is "in the Celtic" tradition". Knowing which Celtic tradition he means (with a reference to cite for the tradition) would be a nice bonus, of course.

as an added bit of fuel for flames of interest...the Skanke house is also tied back to several other old lines through marriage (female lineage) possibly through to Sigurd Munn II through @Helga Sigurdsdotter, Munn of course through Geni.....and ending at @Elin Ranesdotter. Again all speculative but it makes for interesting chases.

Yup, there's plenty of unfounded speculation that can be removed :-)
(fanning the flames of interest from the other side of the bonfire)

The theory about Ønd Pederson's gravestone is very weak. The idea it could be a clue to Skancke origins is like something from a cheap spy novel.

Think about it. If this gravestone dates from 1397 there had been close cultural contact among the Norse, Scots, and Irish for 500 years. The Orkneys were still part of Norway. If Torlack Skenck came from the Hebrides it was 100 years in the past.

The idea that the style of the stone reflects a family tradition is just one option of many, and it's not even the most likely. It could be cultural diffusion. It could be a family connection, but not necessarily the Skancke family. It could be an aesthetic decision by one particular family member. It could have a religious significance that has been obscured. It could be a choice by the craftsman. It could be a choice from among the stones that were easily available.