Hallstein Torleivsson - The connection between the deposed king of Isle of Man and the noble Skanke family i Norway, Sweden and Denmark

This is all good stuff. I saw a while back that Regesta Sodorensia is part of Regesta Norvegica, so it must be digitized after all, but I didn't follow through to find it. The pages numbers 312-330 suggest this is not an extensive collection.

Is Skanke-Ope-ätten the same family? I was working on another project tonight and noticed this is one of my husband's DNA matches.

Remi Trygve Pedersen to me this looks like a man either jumping or sitting, angled at 120 degrees (head down and to the right). The bar at upper left seems like either a leg, a sitting surface or a work surface, depending on how you interpret the rest of the sigil.

Certainly it's not a sigil I've seen elsewhere in this discussion.

Harald :

1. The regests from 1348 (specially that from the swedish Archives) shows that the Hackås estate belonged to Kristina and Nils Hallsteinson. The estate was probably inhertited by Kristina. The regest states that the violation from Olav is made on both sides of the isthmus, in Våle and in Østnor gardens.

The regest from 1394, shows that Markus Nilsson is selling Solkastad (Solstad in modern expression), to Karl Pederson. This is probably a geographical area south of Hov. Karl Pederson was probably already established at Hov at then.

Justin : Ope-ätten is the same family. All of these different lines form Hackås have been planned for test in the ongoing DNA-Project, Your husband should do so too !
Karl Pederson is my 16th great grandfather.There are certainly six-numbered descendants from these lines, so it is possible to mobilize a significant testbase.

Well the Project has so far tested 7 with supposed paternal lineage back to Skanke.
So far: Mjälle-ätten (I-Z58) and Ope-ätten (I-S4795) has haplogroup I1. Five descendants of Karl Pedersson is R1b, the descendant of Joan of Sanne is R1a.

Justin: There are 110 letters, the regest doesnt go into details in the letters, but gives a good overview of who the letters was from and to, and also short what they contain, but I agree that the original letters should be digitized. (All letters used in Diplomatarium Norvegicum and Regesta Norvegica should also be..).

Ulf, I'm sorry you are not able to read what is written in the original, it takes some practice, but the last letter in the first name is in fact the letter "s", and the lastname's ending is "ss" which is a normal abbreviations of patronyms. If you look at the next two words after his name, you will see that they are written "q. G." with a line over each letter, which is also abbreviation common at that time for the words "quediu Guds" or "quædiu Guds" which translates to "Gods greetings"

And both Diplomatarium Norvegicum, Diplomatarium Suecanum and Jämtlands och Härjedalens Diplomatarium agrees with me. The first two sources are online sources and the last one I have at my home.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand you can see a drawing of the sigil here and compare, drawing no. 483 (only accessible from Norwegian IP-addresses): http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/59272e2e74993f284eb66103acfd9851?index=1#119

Remi : du snakker om omskriften til seglet, Ulf mener teksten i regestet.

Og jeg har hele tiden snakket om originalen.

The best diploma that shows what happened between Kristin Halvarsdotter, her husband Nikulas Hallsteinson and Olaf Jonsson, as judged by Jörund Hafverson in the Diplomatarium Suecanum nr. 5686, dated Nov. 12th 1348. https://sok.riksarkivet.se/sdhk?EndastDigitaliserat=false&Datum...

The ones with Norwegian IP-addresses can read a translation to more modern norwegian in Edvard Bulls book "Jemtland og Norge", page 33: http://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/01629c936b4553a3abe352e39bebc823?index=1#33

The interesting part in this diploam is that it expicitly states that it is Kristin Halvorsdotter that owns the farms in question (Austenarshagen and Valohagen) and not Nikulas, and that is interesting becuase then she probably has inherited them from her parents or other familymembers and that these farms didn't come into the Skanke-family before she got the owenerships of them in 1341 (she has owned them for 7 years she states in the diploma). So I don't see any ownership in this diploma that states that the Skanke-family has owned anything of what is mentioned in the diploma, but Nikulas's wife does.

Remi, everyone can follow the story of Nils´ landposessions in the regests from 1345 :
Nils owned half of Mjälle (the old city on Frøsøn), the king owned the other part. Kristin owned the land "Fihri Berghi" (the site of the Jamtamot on Frøsøn) together with her brother Olav Västanåker. Nils and Kristina gave up all of this valueable land to the king as punishment for the murder Nils admitted to have done in his youth.

Most of these areas at Frøsøn still belong to the Swedish state !

The couple would then have to move someplace with their family, and as you can see from the documentation, they were in Hackås in 1348.

I thought I had remembered seeing a printed set of Regesta Norvegica at the FHL in Salt Lake City but I checked their catalog this morning. There are some interesting entries but not that one. This was 30 years ago, so I'm not surprised my memory is faulty.

I must be thinking of this:

Diplomatarium Norvegicum : Oldbrev til kundskab om Norges indre og ydre forhold, sprog, slægter, sæder, lovgivning og rettergang i middelalderen; v. 17 pt. 02

My experience with these old record collections is that they were often published in official editions during the 1800s, although printed copies are hard to find. Do any of you know whether these regesta were published?

I have most of the books from Regesta Norvegica. So yes they are published..
Diplomatarium Norvegicum is also published, and we have them all in Our societies Library ;) The Regesta is still in sale and not hard to get, but Diplomatarium which is older editions are harder to get.. But I see some of both for sale at www.antikvariat.net

As mentioned you can also access them both at www.dokpro.uio.no
(the newest volumes are not.).

Heres the search Field for Regesta Norvegica: http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/regesta_felt.html

And heres the search Field for Diplomatarium Norvegicum:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/diplom_felt.html

Good to know. I see them catalogued at WorldCat but it's not easy to see whether they are the full text or just an inventory.

For example, https://www.worldcat.org/title/regesta-norvegica-1-822-1263/oclc/23...

The closest library to me that has a copy of that one is in Minneapolis, 700 miles away. Not likely I'd make a trip to see it, and not likely it would be available for Interlibrary loan.

They are both in full text on www.dokpro.uio.no There may be some commentaries not included but the regesta and diplomatarium are the same as the printed text. Only difference is that its searchable.. The letters in full are found in the Diplomatarium, but the Regesta is only a summary grouped chronologically in modern Norwegian.

I have found a few downloadable Diplomatariums on Google books..

That's why I was looking at the chances there is a print edition. In Switzerland, where I do a lot of work, Google books is a good way to find old charters, but it helps to get the search exactly right by using other photocopies I have to find the right volume.

So now Justin is involved in this aswell ; ) for real

Sorta. Kinda. It's funny in a way but it doesn't change my mind ;)

Johan Lindqvist

The only true part of this are that IF a curator would have let the connections in this line just be, and only would've added "plausible" or "unsourced" father in Torlaks profile, "they" would most likely not give a note about it. But it's one for all and all for one when it comes to defend each other among Geni's curators, no matter how bad decisions one of them ever makes, kind of tragic but that's how it works, not only here but in general in any organisations that lacks respect for single individuals.

Either we accept this misbehavior, or leave, and if we choose to stay, we accept it, but's that's also why I've recommended some sorts of user curator poll, so that we user together can vote away the rotten eggs from their function as a curator, then they can spread their view of mistrust on older links and lines and connection how much they want, but they will no longer be able to sit here and act as a single jury and judge and hinder some connections out of their lack of basic historical knowledge and or general mistrust against some sources.

And here's a funny thing, in the Swedish variant of "Who do you think you are", a Swedish high jumper Stefan Holm, was told he was the 29:th grandson of
Olof III "the Treasurer", king of Sweden , but we all now by know, that nobody can claim to be a descendant of someone that lived so long ago...by those few who's constantly repeating their favorite mantra that no one can prove such lines.

> The only true part of this are that IF a curator would have let the connections in this line just be, and only would've added "plausible" or "unsourced" father in Torlaks profile, "they" would most likely not give a note about it.

Ulf, can you please stop these pointless tirades?

Munch based his idea that the Skanke family was descended from the kings of Man only on their coat of arms. Stein Aage has said this clearly several times. It was considered to be good evidence in the 1800s. Now it's not.

This whole debate comes down to that one point. The standards for using and interpreting sources have changed in this past 150 years. It's as simple as that.

No one is persecuting anyone. No one is abusing power by applying modern standards of evidence. There is no conspiracy. The curators agree with each other because they agree about using modern standards.

Shall I tell you another story to illustrate this point?

For many centuries the von Reinach family in Switzerland was said to be a branch of the von Habsburg family. There were no records to prove it, just a similarity in their coats of arms.

The Habsburg coat of arms was a gold shield with a red lion wearing a blue crown:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Counts_of_Habsburg_Arms.svg

The Reinach coat of arms was a gold shield with a red lion that had a blue head:
http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Reinach_(Aargau)

In all the books and manuscripts written from the 14th century to the mid 19th century everyone says the Herren von Reinach are a branch of the Habsburgs. Then about 1850 to 1900 they stop staying it. Now, no one says it.

I got interested in this family when I was in high school. I wrote to the Staatsarchiv des Kantons Luzern about it. I wanted to know the original source. The Archivist wrote back to tell me it is nonsense, so I should just forget about it.

He wouldn't even give me the source. I don't think he even read my letter or he would have known I wanted the source to understand how the idea originated, not so I could use it to prove a connection. (That should tell us something right there -- there are so many people asking about silly connections that some archivists and librarians don't even bother to read the letters.)

So, I had to do the research myself. I discovered that the Reinach family ruled the upper Wynental as Habsburg deputies until the Bernese conquest in 1415. The surviving documents show the Reinach family as ministerialen or servants of the Habsburgs, who rose into the nobility after being serfs originally. Their earliest documented ancestors were two men, probably brothers, Arnold and Hesso, who lived in the late 12th and early 13th centuries.

I left it there, and then a few years ago I was doing some research for the Habsburg DNA project. I began to wonder if the Reinach family ever produced a pedigree that showed their actual claim of relationship to the Habsburgs.

Yep, they did. Back in the days when the Habsburgs were still claiming a male line descent from the Roman emperors, the Reinachs had a pedigree that showed they branched off about the same time. That was very surprising for me because it went far back beyond the origins of heraldry.

As you read this story, notice some things. First, there was never any evidence of a relationship except the similarity of the coats of arms. Second, these families actually lived in the same area and interacted with each other. Third, the Reinach family used arms that were very similar to the arms of their feudal lords without any objection. (In English these are called “arms of patronage” or “arms of dependency”. They are very common.) Fourth, even after the Habsburgs changed their official pedigree the experts continued to claim the Reinachs were related even though the stopped saying exactly how.

Nice to hear the discussion. For sure.
But I guess Dna will be needed in the end.
Is there any other way one can tell from dna other than the fathers line that someone could be related? I mean if they all have I1 - haplogroup - it doesnt distinguish? the 19th great grandfather (for example) can have I1- haplogroup, sure, but from another line that also has I1- haplogroup?

How significant can the Markers be (or any other way to look at dna) ?

Ulf, just give up those kind of comments and arguments. You are just making a fool of your self and everyone reading such comments from you will be thinking that you don't have any real arguments in this case and in fact I think they will think that you don't know how to do your geneaolgical research. That will again lead to them mistrusting everything you say in every geneaogical discussion.

You see, most users on Geni that have done some geneaolgical research knows how todays standard in geneaological research is. And a lot of them have attended courses where they have been taught how to do geneaological reseach. And if you don't believe me, just ask any teacher at any swedish geneaological society of how to do your geneaological research, how uncertain information should be handled in a geneaologicial context and when your ancestral lines should stop because of the uncertainty in the sources.

> Is there any other way one can tell from dna other than the fathers line that someone could be related?

Johan, this is a very important question but it's not easy to answer. With the current state of the science there is only an approximate way.

The yDNA is constantly mutating over the generations at a fairly stable and somewhat predictable rate. Therefore, if two men have been tested it is possible to make an educated guess about how long ago their common ancestor lived. The more markers they have both tested, the more reliable the guess.

This is not foolproof, though. For example, I have two differences from my father's brother. The algorithm predicts that our common ancestor lived about 300 years ago. There is only a 10% chance we share a common ancestor within the past 2 generations (which is the correct answer). This is very common.

There is also a small problem because the algorithm changes a little over time as new data becomes available.

The bigger problem is that there are no proven male-line descendants of the old kings of Man to compare results.

The MacLeods, the Gunns, the Skankes, and other families have all claimed male-line descent from the Crovan dynasty, but there are serious doubts about all of their pedigrees, and none of them match any of the others.

I've been trying to get one of my DNA chums to go on record, but so far no luck. What I'm hearing privately is that one problem with the Skanke claim is that their DNA is not as common in the Hebrides, Ireland, and northern England as it "should be" for a family that ruled so long in those areas. I think there is plenty of room for debate and discussion on that point, but it's worth noting.

Thankyou for explaining - again. I guess one has to combine makers that are in common with the same haplogroup. The haplogroup cant mutate atleast, right. So we need advanced tests in that case. With many markers.. and then also have Dna from any isle of man king. Still it will be difficult to see.

Anyways, Interesting debate with different points of views from different science methods.

I guess the pussle will go from abstract to more real the more the communication is going on.

Perhaps all could meet some day and discuss some more?

Johan: There are certainly ways to distinguish between men who share haplogroup I1 etc. By testing Y12 you basicly know what haplogroup you are in, but Your matches can be both very Close matches or thousand of years apart. By upgrading to at least Y37, from then on you start to get matches that are genealogically interesting and you can start to see a pattern on which subbranch you might belong to. But still maby 2000 years to common ancestor. By testing more markers you get more relevant matches and its easier to predict a branch. But as Justin mentions that is just prediction. What you need to confirm which branch you belong to is Big-Y, that tests SNP-mutations rather than the Y12-Y111 markers (STR-markers). SNPs are much more stable and are those that defines the branches. By testing Big-Y and further analyze at Yfull, you get a theoretical age-estimation that enables you to confirm how many generations there are up to common ancestor. (While age according to STRs are mostly guessing, age according to SNPs are much more reliable). My branch Y22010: https://yfull.com/tree/I-A5338/ has a age estimated to around 450-500 years ago, which fits perfectly With my possible lineage.. But its of course theoretically as the mutation rate of SNPs (120-180 years) are not constant and depends on age of generations..

One note about the period we're discussing:

In the years 1349-1350, a huge number of people all over Scandinavia ended up dead over a rather short period (I've seen estimates varying between 1/3 and 2/3 of the population).

It would be totally unsurprising to see things being more chaotic than usual in the years following that event.

> Well the Project has so far tested 7 with supposed paternal lineage back to Skanke.
So far: Mjälle-ätten (I-Z58) and Ope-ätten (I-S4795) has haplogroup I1. Five descendants of Karl Pedersson is R1b, the descendant of Joan of Sanne is R1a.

David, do you have kit numbers for these 7?

I'm an admin for the Scandinavian yDNA project. It would be interesting to see if they are members and use the tools to compare to other members (as opposed to doing it by hand).

Also, it would be interesting to see if they are members of the Scottish yDNA project and how they fall out there. (Whether it is true they don't have many close matches.)

I am looking at the results for the Skanke DNA project, but it's not clear to me which of them are confirmed Skanke descendants and which are "just looking".

The common ancestor for the 2 I-branches is 4700 YBP according to https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-DF29/, so we're pretty certain they're different lineages in the 1300s (unless yfull's time estimates are completely off base).

What's the proflie for Karl Pedersson - how far back is he?