Henry II "Curtmantle", king of England - Missing Children

I just counted 15 children and I could have missed the 16yh. What's the problem.

Alex,
Along with a gazillion others Geni lists Henry II "Curtmantle", King of England (1133-1189) as my 23rd Great Grandfather per Henry II "Curtmantle", king of England. HOWEVER, the relationship path to me as given is through George Allen of Weymouth (who has not been merged with George Allen of Sandwich at the request of Angus Wood-Saloman whi is still collaborating about implications of a merge.) This situation arose since originally I (along with many other people) thought that the son of George Allen of Sandwich was Ralph "Stonemason" Allen whereas it is Ralph "Wheelright" Allen who is the son of George Allen of Sandwich as docuemnted clearly by Jack E. Macdonald per http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jacmac/allen.pdf . I also "bought into" changing my ancestor from George Allen of Sandwich to George Allen of "Weymouth". That was too quick a judgment.

For me George Allen of Sandwich needs to get cleaned up sooner than later since there is a braided implex relationship between George Allen of Sandwich and my ancestor Ebenezer Allen (1758-1822). That is because Ebenezer is related to George Allen of Sandwich through no fewer than 3 of George's children (as Macdonald clearly documents). It is the layers of intermarriage of Allen cousins which causes this dynamic.

I do not know if there is any relationship between the uncorrected errors in my tree which might influence the missing children of Henry II "Curtmantle". Perhaps we need to enlist the help of Angus with this one.

Private User
You're right 15 currently.

That actually confuses things more.

The 3 missing children are:

Mathilda (the illegitimate one)

Richard (the illegitimate one not Lionheart)

Julita

So if we have 15 at the moment and there are 3 missing that would toatl 18 so we in fact have two too many children!

William Arthur Allen

Your 18th century relatives have absolutely nothing to do with Henry II's messed up immediate family. There is a chance that once the kids are fixed up your path to him may change.

Yes Mathilda.. I remember her. Can't remember who she was married to. I think it was some who was Scottish.

I really dont want to take lead on this, but to quote Cawley there are 8 legitimate children by Elenore (who are all present on Geni) but Geni adds an extra child, Philip, Prince of England (perhaps the Curator can explain his presence) that Cawley does not mention.

Then there is Peter, Archdeacon of Lincoln and Rosamond FitzHenry both showing as children of Rosamond de Clifford.

Cawley acknowledges that there is confusion around Rosamund and does not even assign here speculative children. Her profile quotes her wikipedia page which discusses several children of varying likelihood (and a whole bunch of other junk to boot).

Cawley lists a possible, unnamed, child to Alix de Porhoët (who currently is not on Geni and who's unnamed child probably got merged into Hugh of Wells).

So the are 15 but should be 16, we are missing 4 but have 3 extra.

The lists of the children of Eleanor and Henry generally only give those that survived infancy. The profile for Philip says he died young, so he wouldn't have shown up on Cawley's list I'd think.

The Rosamund stuff is problematic cause it's so highly speculative.

Alix de Porhoet is indeed on Geni, just not connected to Henry, and since any child she might have had is also speculative, I'd just as soon we not have one. Though really she should be connected to Henry.

(Can't link at the moment-- iPad being annoying. Sorry)

From http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_79.html

Geoffrey Plantagenet was the illegitimate son of King Henry II, the first of the Plantagenet Kings. Geoffrey's mother's is not known with certainty, but she is thought to have been a woman named Ykenai. Geoffrey is known to have had a maternal half-brother called Peter.

From https://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&lpg=PA19&ots...

Page 19 of Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study In Colonial And Medieval Families, 2nd Edition ...

"uterine half brother ..."

In other words, make a NN partner of Ykenai, mistress of Henry ll, move Peter over as their child, and lose the bogus last name. The "about" could use a cleanup. Wish I could read the charter link.

Actually Emily got the Peter right

Peter, Archdeacon of Lincoln

So merge & clean. I made hers MP.

Here's controversial lists of children

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/1998-03/...

Here's 2003, draft of Richardson's list (published 2011 above)

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-01/...

Terry Jackson (Switzer) I believe Rosamond de Clifford needs to be disconnected from Ralph de Baskerville

& your curator note updated

I see no support for their marriage

http://fam.eastmill.com/f170.htm#f74370 has him married to an Anne (not Rosamund) de Clifford, daughter of Drugo, and mother of Bruga

Not sure that's supposed to be the same Ralph here

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jwebe...

Marrying Ann Owen

Alex,
Thanks for the reassurance. You say, "There is a chance that once the kids are fixed up your path to him may change." If the truth be known there will be more than one direct path, probably a large number of paths. That's because Henry II is so far back in time that the pathways to him are implex. It all like a football stadium full of spaghetti - huge numbers, huge numbers of grafts from one pathway to another. Geni gives us only one, and not necessarily the most direct one.

It would be worth comparing Geni's current info to The Henry Project, compiled by Stewart Baldwin:

http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/henry002.htm

Seems the main open question is:

Hugh of Wells (falsely attributed), d. 1235, bishop of Lincoln.
[Weir (1989), 63, with a question mark] There seems to be no good reason for including him among Henry's illegitimate children. See Hugh's biographical entry in DNB 10, 168, where Hugh is called a son of Edward of Wells and brother of bishop Josceline of Bath and Wells.

Yes, I agree.

He was closely connected to John; no evidence that he was a half brother, though.

(reposting)

Hugh of Wells, Bishop of Lincoln disconnected as son of Henry ll

Added Matilda, abbess of Barking to the tree.

Terry had updated Rosamund.

Can someone please check the order of Henry's relationships? And then count children again?

Back in 22 Nov 2002, this was imported to my FTM by a very close friend. Then I started to update this lineage in 24 Jun 2003. At that time he only had 10 children plus one from his mistress Alice Ida de Tosny of Norfolk.

I don't have much to offer on this issue. But, this sounds like it is time to get the master of Curators on this case.

Good Luck!

I have lines to him several ways. William Longspree, John Lackland and Matilda. Probably more.

I have revised the Overview to include Medlands' veiws -
Assuming these are correct and they are the generally preferred source
*This profile has an extra child assigned to Henry and Eleanor - Philip who died young
* A daughter to Henry and Rosamond Clifford also not recorded on Medlands - Rosamond fitzHenry
* 3 children to unknown mistresses 6-8 Recorded on Medlands but not in evidence: Hugh, Richard and Julita (unconf.)
All else is in order and names of children according to Medlands have also been added to the Curator Note.

Terry - Hugh is listed by MedLands but debunked by Stewart's Henry project. Should we have him in the note?

Also, off topic, but now I'm thinking on an "abbess" project. Of interest?

Alix de Porhoët
Alix de Porhoët
Partner of Henry II "Curtmantle", king of England

are they the same?

Erica - although I confess I'd not compared Medlands with Stewarts they compare well and Stewart says Hugh is Fasley attributed.

Abbess project - great
Monks and Priors?

Terry - I think you're misreading Stewart Baldwin (and no, the lists for the illegitimate children, and their likelihood, differ a bit from MedLands) -- and "in this case," Baldwin "is" the preferred source, because "the Henry Project" assembled the top medievalists working today to resolve the Henry ll tree.

What that project concludes is

====

Hugh of Wells (falsely attributed), d. 1235, bishop of Lincoln.

There seems to be no good reason for including him among Henry's illegitimate children.

See Hugh's biographical entry in DNB 10, 168, where Hugh is called a son of Edward of Wells and brother of bishop Josceline of Bath and Wells.

====

In other words, it's a spurious claim of parentage. He has a respected biographical entry providing his father & brother.

And so does Geni.

So i don't think he should be in the Curator note.

(I cant get into the ODNB article without a UK library card but you can)

http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/14061

Here's his Wiki page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_of_Wells
"Hugh died on 7 February 1235,[13] at his episcopal residence at Stow Park. He was buried on 10 February 1235 in Lincoln Cathedral, in the north aisle. In 1233 he had written a new will, which mentions his brother and a niece named Agatha."

Here's his biography

http://www.dunstableparish.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/hugh-o...

Here's about his brother Joscelin of Wells

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/fasti-ecclesiae/1066-1300/vol7/pp1-6
"brother of Hugh of Wells, archdeacon of Wells ..."

Re: monks & priors

I don't have source data.

I think I could put something together for abbesses using Victoria County Histories.

Yes, Bill, good one, and merged.

http://www.geni.com/people/Alix-de-Porhoët/6000000014057327705

Sorry Erica - got that upside down in my head somehow! So we should remove Hugh but leave the link to Stewarts project.

I added this to Geoffrey
http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_79.html

Geoffrey Plantagenet was the illegitimate son of King Henry II, the first of the Plantagenet Kings. Geoffrey's mother's is not known with certainty, but she is thought to have been a woman named Ykenai. Geoffrey is known to have had a maternal half-brother called Peter.