More real, less illusion

Started by Justin Durand on Monday, December 21, 2015
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Showing 181-210 of 234 posts

Thanks for alerting about Lucifer by the way.

The curator note says: Mythological. Please raise a discussion if Geni can find a relationship to you.

But apparently no one felt it necessary to notify me or any curator or manager. Which is disturbing.

I am now isolating the profile again.

I just had a mind boggling experience with some people who believe in mermaids. I thought that was bunk until someone pointed out that my DNA which is stored in Houston might be floating away and getting injested by the fish swimming in the streets. Is it really possible that those fish now could spawn mermaids or is my DNA secure in Houston?

William Arthur Allen

Indeed your DNA might be floating away. Much of what is in Houston is.

But the wibbly wobbly science here is the issue. Can eating DNA cause various beings to spawn half-and-half beings?

Clearly not, as then any of us meat eaters would be producing Minotaurs and the like.

Nope.

The mermaids are just going to have to be produced by other methods than your DNA floating around Houston.

I hope this has set your mind at ease.

But really. That was one interesting conversation you fell into.

Chuckle, chuckle. I was just looking for reassurance that my DNA in Houston was secure despite the flooding.

Oh, no, sorry. No help there. We are all just gonna have to wait till the water recedes and the city can get mucked out.

And then we can see about the floating DNA and the stranded mermaids!

They posted on FB yesterday afternoon --

Family Tree DNA Update:

We are extremely thankful for your patience and concern for our employees. The Family Tree DNA building has remained fairly unharmed by the floods but our first concern is for our employees. Therefore, we have closed the office until it is safe for them to commute. We expect the office to open up later this week and will keep you updated.

In the mean time, we want to address many of the questions we are getting from our extended family at Family Tree DNA.

Is my DNA safe?

Yes, your DNA is safe. Our building has remained fairly unharmed and the lab is located on one of the top floors of the building. We’ve had people monitoring everything and can tell you that your DNA is safe and protected. We were well prepared for this at the building.

If I’ve bought a test recently is it okay to ship back or should I wait?

Yes, it is okay to ship back. The post office will hold it until they are able to deliver.
Can I still order a test, add-on, or upgrade?

Yes, you can still place orders online. Some customer service members are working from home but they are stretched thin. Therefore, we ask that you place all orders online.

Order fulfillment and shipping:

NEW KIT ORDERS: As soon as it is safe for our employees to commute we will hit the ground running to get any new test kits shipped out. We hope to be back in the office by the middle or end of this week. Therefore, shipping may be delayed by a few days.
EXISTING KIT ORDERS: If you have ordered an add-on test or upgrade we do not expect your results to be delayed by more than one or two days from the average fulfillment time. This is due to the fact that we already have your DNA at the lab.
I ordered a kit but have not received a confirmation email:

Our servers are currently turned off in the building. If you did not receive a confirmation email, expect to have one in your inbox in the next day or so. We apologize.
Again, we appreciate your patience and will continue to update you.

Sincerely,
Family Tree DNA

Yay!

Thank you, Justin Durand!

Glad we can pass this news on.

Still waiting on the mermaid update.

The people who profess that mermaids are real are from a desert area in Syria. With all the struggles these poor folks have endured the mermaids may have been in mirages in an illusory oasis. It has come as culture shock to them in their new home on this continent that we know that mermaids are fantasies.

Heather, DNA results for ethnicity are always speculative, and subject to change as new information is discovered. In fact, the methodology itself is somewhat questionable. Simplified, the process is something like this. They look at people whose four grandparents come from the same country or ethnic background, then assume those people collectively represent that country or ethnicity. If you match them at a particular level they assume you must have that kind of ancestry.

It works. Sort of. Except that people end up with all kinds of odd results. For example, people who are 100 percent English might end up with a big chunk of Scandinavian from the old Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian invasions a thousand years ago.

Your Jewish background will have disappeared because they changed the formula. That could mean they got more information in their database to show you are a better match for non-Jews. Or it could mean they re-wrote the algorithm to exclude results that were a bit iffy. No way to know.

You should always take the results with a grain of salt. I've tested at all of the major companies. Each one reports my ethnic background very differently, and over the years all of them have changed dramatically.

Instead of looking at theories about your ethnic background, it would be better to look at your cousin matches to see if you find any Jews among them. Then, use those people and their information to see if you can identify a common ancestor who can be proved to be Jewish.

Good book. I read it when it first came out. Enjoyed it thoroughly but it's been panned by the elders who say it grossly misrepresents culture and tradition.

http://people.com/archive/a-growing-war-over-hanta-yo-pits-chief-la...

Justin, thanks for your summary of your DNA testing with all of the major companies. You note that each one reports your ethnic background very differently, and over the years all of them have changed dramatically. This calls into question the advetised claims of the DNA testers. Are these companies guilty of false advertising? Are our reported personal DNA results merely illusions?

False advertising? Merely illusions?

No, I don't think so. But I l also don't think the results mean what most people generally think they mean, nor are the results quite as tidy as presented.

Here's a personal example. Ancestry says I am 43 percent Scandinavian. 23andme says 16 percent. FTDNA says 25 percent.

Probably the number I'd be looking for is 25 percent. I have a grandfather whose parents came from Sweden. The rest of my ancestry is Colonial British and German with a dash of American Indian. One grandfather = 25 percent.

So FTDNA gets it "right" but that's a new number. It used to be higher. 38 percent, I think. The change is an example, probably, of them getting new and better data.

In the old days before commercial testing for ethnicity I clustered with the Swedes. In other words, it looked like I was probably entirely or almost entirely Swedish. Better data now.

But that doesn't mean the other companies are wrong. There's a time element here. There have been population movements all over Europe throughout history. An easy example is the Anglo-Saxon and Viking invasions. So, are we looking at ancestry in recent generations? Or 500 years ago? Or 1000 years ago?

43 percent Scandinavian at Ancestry is a reasonable number for me if it includes Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in England, Scotland, and Ireland.

On the other hand, 16 percent at 23andme is too low for my recent ancestry. Since there wasn't a lot of population movement into Scandinavia, it's probably also too low for 500 years ago or even 1000 years ago.

The "missing" 9 percent has probably been tabulated into the category for "Broadly Northwestern European" (28.6 percent). In other words my Swedish ancestry is still there but their algorithm can't split it out.

And really, this is all a gross simplification. It's very likely that all three companies are putting some of my Swedish ancestry into other buckets, and putting some of my other ancestry into the Scandinavian bucket. It's all an approximation.

In the end, I don't see this as false advertising or merely an illusion. But it's definitely more complicated than you'd think it is if you only listen to the TV commercials.

.

Autosomal DNA is the "hot item" these days, but it's also the least accurate. With each generation ~50% of the information is lost, and the "signal to noise ratio" degrades rapidly. It's good for about five generations back, roughly speaking, but may miss something relevant even within those limits.

mtDNA is the most reliable but the hardest to verify with a paper trail, due to the European custom of women taking their husband's name on marriage (the rule is not invariant, and depends to some extent on relative status). And it is vulnerable to breakage - if one woman in your line had no daughters, but only sons, the mtDNA information is lost. (Exceptions: you and/or a brother would still have your mother's mtDNA, but you can't pass it on; your father would still have *his* mother's mtDNA but you wouldn't.)

Y-DNA isn't quite as reliable as mtDNA, but more reliable for more generations than autosomal (under ideal conditions). The average mutation rate is faster (and some SNPs are faster than others), and it is vulnerable to several kinds of breakage (no sons, male parent not wife's husband for any of a basketful of reasons, etc.). It can be passed down *only* father to biological son, no exceptions. Triangulation (or polyangulation) is advisable for these reasons, i.e. the more male relatives tested, the better.
.

Make that "not mother's husband" - typo city today!

There are two different things going on here.

Autosomal DNA can be used to calculate ethnic ancestry. That's one thing.

It can also be used to "prove" a relationship to someone else. That's a different thing.

Two different types of analysis, so two different sets of questions about reliability.

If I share a 38 cM block on chromosome 2 with some woman I've never met, we almost certainly share a fairly recent common ancestor. Worth investigating. The smaller the block, probably the more distant the relationship. At the point where the block is say only 7 cM a real relationship becomes speculative.

On the other hand, if a testing company looks at that same 38 cM block and says it fits the pattern for other other people with English ancestry, so let's call it English, that's a different kind of problem.

Very reliable in the first example. Maybe not so reliable in the second.

We started this thread talking about illusion. In my opinion one of the biggest illusions is that biology and culture are the same, or should be the same.

I think one of the saddest commercials on TV is the Ancestry.com commercial where the guy thinks he's German, then he takes a DNA test and discovers he's Scottish, so he trades in his lederhosen for a kilt.

Really? This guy has such a weak sense of self that he's happy to trade in his authentic cultural identity in order to build a new identity based on biology? Bah. He should be in counseling to figure out why he's so insecure.

Yet I see this all the time. So many people who are unhappy being themselves so they jump at the chance to claim another more exotic identity.

Justin - I do not believe your numbers are correct. While 1 grand parent is 25% of my "source" DNA, that does NOT mean that grandparent is 100% of anything .... Just because that grandparent came country XYZ, does mean you are 25% XYZ. This subject is far more complicated and you are making it way too simplistic.

Rick, of course I'm simplifying. This is a discussion targeted for people for whom these ideas are new.

But, let's think about your quibble for just a second. My grandfather was born in America to parents born in Sweden. We have a fairly complete genealogy for them going back to Swedes on all lines to the 1600s and 1700s, and a few back to the 1500s. Almost all within a relatively small radius.

So whom do you think they would match? My guess would be other Swedes from the same area. And that's borne out by my actual matches. A very high percentage of Swedes, all of whom have ancestry in this same area and have a complicated network of matches also with each other.

The problem is essentially recursive, as I made very clear above. The "when" is just as important as the "where". DNA testing companies figure out what DNA is Scandinavian by aggregating the results of people whose four grandparents were born in Scandinavia.

It becomes a circular definition. If the definition of Scandinavian comes from modern people with roots in Scandinavia, it's difficult to then say that someone in America like my grandfather whose roots are 100 percent in Scandinavian isn't really Scandinavian. He would be the same amount of Scandinavian as the people whose DNA is being use to define Scandinavian.

Heather, do you see the confusion between biology and culture in your post?

Judaism is both an ethnicity and a religion. What sense does it make to think if someone has some Jewish ancestry that they now have to adopt Judaism as a religion and have a bat mitzvah? They could do that, of course, but why would anyone think that finding Jewish ancestry means they have to give up being a Presbyterian (or whatever) and become a Jew?

Or Steven Tyler and his taste in music. Does that mean anyone who likes that music must have African ancestry? Is my husband wrong about his love for jazz because he doesn't have the genetic license? Maybe I should tell him he really loves Enya whether he thinks so or not.

I'm being a little silly here, but I think you see what I'm saying. The things we believe and do and love are part of our identity and our culture. They don't come from our DNA.

Heather, it's easy to get into a brawl when people's feelings are hurt about inclusion / exclusion as an Indian, but maybe I can give you a perspective you haven't encountered before.

Traditional peoples define identity by participation in their culture, not by race or ancestry. You might be born into the tribe, captured in war, or adopted. That's not the important part. The important part is that you live with them and participate in their culture. You live with them. You have a name in their language. You speak their language. You participate in their rituals. If you don't, you're not one of them.

If you know many Indian people you'll see that this traditional test is still a common way of looking at it. They'll judge on similar criteria. What matters is not your ancestry, but your participation, even if it's on the fringes. One of the big factors is always whether you can name your cousins on the reservation. If you can't do that, you're not really one of them, but maybe you can still salvage your reputation by being able to name an ancestor who did live on the reservation, or maybe you're at least an enrolled member of the tribe.

This seems harsh to white Americans who are used to seeing things a different way. One of the ways you can tell if you're white is that you think of being Indian in terms of how much Indian blood you have instead of how closely tied you are to modern Indians.

There is an historical reason it developed this way, although most people don't know it.

In the old days white Americans were so afraid of intermixing with Blacks that in many times and places even one drop of African ancestry was enough to label a person as Black.

But, because of treaties, the government often owed money to Indians so that had to be regulated a different way. A cultural identity test would have been too hard so they invented the idea that Indians are defined by the amount of Indian ancestry they have. That upset a lot of tribes because it strikes at the heart of their cultural identity. Too many people end up being legally a member of the tribe without having any meaningful connection. But it's the law nevertheless.

So we have whites on one side thinking that some amount of Indian blood entitles them to identify as Indian. And we have Indians on the other side thinking it just doesn't. The perfect set up for misunderstandings and hurt feelings on both sides.

If this is a subject that interests you, you might enjoy this presentation from the Smithsonian:

Quantum Leap: Does "Indian Blood" Still Matter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgJJzTFwdfA

And this presentation from UC-Berkeley:

From Blood to DNA, From "Tribe" to "Race": Science, Whiteness & Property
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXScGwnX-1A

Hmmm, what an interesting discussion. It evokes multiple images and brings to mind certain philosophical spins and quotes from great literature. If the master says one cannot step in the same stream twice the student says that one cannot step in it even once. Very Cratylian. If DNA algorithms are subject to the flux of ongoing refinement and redefinitions of the language of DNA reports is there such a thing as DNA truth at all? We are imprisoned in the imperfections of our own language and the scale of complextity/simplification/tentativeness of the issues. What may be more important is not our shifting DNA results but our discussions about imperfections, nuances and the nature of DNA reality. The play's the thing.

There is that, but I think the essence of the problem is a simple verbal sleight of hand that's very easy to see if you know what to look for.

Here's an example.

If I told you I am Swedish, you'd think I'm delusional. There's nothing Swedish about me except my last name, my politics, and my house elf ("tomte").

I'm not Swedish. I'm an American with some Swedish ancestry. And that's a significant distinction.

It doesn't matter how I choose to interact with Sweden, Swedes, and Swedish culture. I can love it and want to identify with it. I can study the Swedish language and observe Swedish holidays. I can be passionate about Swedish genealogy and proud of my Swedish ancestors. I can give my cats and kids Swedish names.

But none of it will make me Swedish. Hard to see how it would be"reverse racism" to point out that I'm American not Swedish.

Such a simple categorical landscape but many people have difficulty navigating it when they see a DNA signature for something that seems exotic in their world, like Judaism or Native American.

Some interesting points, Laura.

You should read some of the captivity narratives from colonial times down to the end of the 19th century. They're sometimes lurid and sensational, but they paint a painful picture. White children captured by Indians and later re-captured by whites often had difficulty adjusting, and many of them tried to escape back to their Indian families.

They were caught psychologically between two competing systems. Whites were making claims of blood, while Indians were making claims of culture. No way to reconcile the two. Asking which one is "real" would be pointless and heartless.

In modern times enrollment requires a CDIB -- Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood -- from the feds. That's the primary requirement because we still live in a world where the feds get to define Indian-ness.

Tribes then apply their individual requirements. Usually some combination of (a) the blood quantum on the CDIB and (b) their own tribal rules about descent from their tribe. Then there are others, like the Cherokees, where every descendant of someone on the final Dawes Roll is legally entitled to enrollment. In the modern world there's so often a conflict between bureaucracy and reality -- just as you describe.

But it gets even more complicated because legal quantum and actual quantum also can be different. My dad is an example of that. His CDIB says he's 3/8 Indian -- 1/4 Lakota and 1/8 Shoshoni. I calculate he's "really" only about 1/8 Indian. The original rolls are just wrong. It's not uncommon. Nevertheless, as you describe, he was an enrolled member of his tribe, enmeshed in the culture, friends and cousins on the rez, and proud of it, even though he didn't live on the reservation.

Sorry for getting your name wrong.

Yes, very complex.

I grew up as a WASP in a WASP family but with a distant Indian father. When I got older I did a Vision Quest, have an Indian name, have done the sweat lodge over and over, and studied traditional lore till I know it better than most, all under the direction of my "uncle", a prominent medicine man.

But my DNA shows that I'm about 94 percent European, with the other 6 percent a mix of Indian, Jewish, and African.

I could get a CDIB and apply for tribal enrollment, but the way I see it I'm a WASP with Indian ancestry and relatives, not an Indian. I would not want to disrepect my Indian cousins by claiming an identity that properly belongs to them not to me.

Justin, let me paraphrase your points by substituting my own genealogy to see how comfortably it fits your thesis.

If I told you I am American you'd think I was delusional even though when I travel off the continent almost everybody thinks I am an American. There's nothing American about me except that the Allens came to Cape Cod before 1650 and I am descended in both my maternal and paternal lines from a host of other colonial Americans including several who travelled on the first trip of the Mayflower. I do not attach the same emotional significance to my Mayflower heritage as so many American do. My DNA report has 95% confidence that I am descended from Colonial New England stock. My father was born in Vermont.

I'm not American. I'm a Canadian with some American ancestry. And that's a significant distinction.

It doesn't matter how I choose to interact with the USA, Americans or American culture. Sure I grew up on a border city, played most of my basketball against American teams, watch CNN and American sports as much as most Americans, enjoy American music and am scared shitless by Donald Trump. I can study American violence prone language and observe American holidays (we fly American flags on a lot of our businesses to attract American tourists). I can interact with cousins born in Canada who have emigrated to the USA and I can holiday in the USA or give speeches at Amereican univesities and conferences. Until American distributors flooded the market with Chinese and other off shore goods I bought a lot of American goods. My truck was made in the United States. I know that 35 American states have Canada as their largest trading partner. I am passionate about American genealogy and have helped a lot of Americans with my research results. I am proud of some of my American ancestors and am disgusted with others. I did not give my cats and kids American names.

But none of this makes me American. Hard to see how it would be "reverse racism" to point out that I'm Canadian, not American.

Such a simple categorical landscape but many people have difficulty navigating it when they see a DNA signature for something that seem exotic in their world. I shake my head at the morlocks who are excited that George Washington is a distant cousin. Most of us on this continent are his distant cousin. I trace my heritage to English, Irish and Frankish kings, William the Conqueror and Charlemagne but do not give a hoot about that. I am a Canadian.

In Sweden we are not fully entitled to have real discussions like this, it's to emotional charged due to later mass immigration, so we have adopted some kind of denial culture, and as it seems to be today, swedes have no own history of themselves, everything is considered as imported goods, loans and influences from other people's cultures, just never swedes in general or Scandinavians in particular.

Instead, today, we are all supposed to be viewed as swedes here, but we are at the same time not allowed to define us!

The first people in Scandinavia arrived ca. 13.000 BC., they were hunters and gatherers, the period shortly after this is called the older stone age and lasted between ca 9000 - 4000 BC. but before this ended, long after the agriculture's entry ca. 6000 BC. almost all of Sweden was at that time ice free all the way up to Norrland. Around 4000 BC. people lived in timbered houses today referred as "long house", and before the start of 2000 BC. they were all a part of the iron age all the way from the south to the north.

The Sami people at the other hand, arrived to the north soon after the ice age, either from the European continent or from the east or from either side. A small accession would have come from the east as late as 2,700 years ago, = 700 BC.

Archaeologists thinks that they have been here for max. ca. 3000 year, some of them speculate that it might have been longer, however, the Sami were not the first people in that area where they have been residing in the last millennial, or in Sweden! and thus neither are true indigenous peoples in an archaeological sense, but by later new political reason, they are today the only accepted group that are allowed to call them self Swedish indigenous people.

Why, the answer is completely because of endogamy, the custom of marrying only within the limits of a local community, clan, or tribe. The first people in Scandinavia have been mixed up with later waves of immigrants from all over Europe, most likely spoken different variants of indo-European languages, most likely having similar cultures, but yet seen as different people, thus not indigenous...inconsistency?

Compared to the Sami, that also immigrated at different times, had slightly different languages due to different groups of clans from different places, but yet a similar culture, but compared to other Scandinavians, the outcome is totally different in their case, despite that they have gone thru a very similar development.

In a way, we can also claim that in fact, the first Scandinavians did also have forms of endogamy, but perhaps (or more truly) without stronger racist characteristics, as economic considerations could ( or rather to speak frank, should) have been valued more than just consanguinity. ( I do in fact consider endogamy to be the true racism!).

It's impossible today for any ethnic swede, unless they're Sami's, to claim that they belongs to the indigenous Scandinavian people, (of course, people can do or say what they want but), to do so is considered blasphemy, racism, and very very politically incorrect and you will get frozen out, lose your job etc.

In a very contradictory way, our rulers say at the same time that we should work for a multicultural society, yes, but only as long as we don't count in us self in that sphere as a culture, because what they actually do mean with multicultural is just everyone else's cultures, as we in fact are denied both our own culture as well as roots, here, we are all just human beings belonging to the human race, nothing special or more than that.

President Rolihlahla Nelson Mandela, Nobel Laureate
Justin 14th Cousin and Ulf 19th Cousin. If you Swedes after thousands of years thin you have an identity problem. You cant think you in what it is to be a white African. Every body begrudge you your place in the sun and that after 400 years.
My direct 7th great grandmother, confirmend by Dna matches was an Indian slave my wifes 6th great grandmother and also my 7th great grandmother was a slave women from Madagascar and so is the case with more or less every European person whose fore bears settled in the Cape colony during the first 50 years. Due to the shortage of European Women the men took slave women and or Indigenous women.

Queen Elizabeth use to be my 12 th Cousin, she moved to be my 15th Cousin. No heart aces about that Princess Diana are still my 13 th Cousin.

Who Want me, ? where do I belong? after 400 years AFRICA STILL DONT WANT ME.

I feel your pain Martin Andreas Karl (Dries) Potgieter

race=human
species=homo sapien
ethnicity=whatever the scientists decide it is and subject to change

You are what you want to be or what you wish to be, which for most is the country where you were born and which culture you grew up and feel comfortable with. Am I an American because I lived in the US for 40 plus years, or Argentinian because I was born in Buenos Aires and lived there for twenty something years? Is my DNA test going to justify my taste for vodka and piroshkies, my love for everything French and my connection with Scotland and Scots? Answer coming in 10 weeks I hope. I know I'm a mutt and that won't change!

Who knew we'd have so many with identity complaints? ;)

Remember Rachel Dolezal? She was the white woman who passed herself off as Black for 10 years, then got outed by the media and set of a firestorm of media controversy.

If you don't remember, here's a tabloid piece and a serious piece about her.

NOT ALL WHITE? Who is Rachel Dolezal? The white woman who pretended to be black claiming she is ‘transracial’
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/3195364/rachel-dolezal-white-woman-...

The Heart of Whiteness: Ijeoma Oluo Interviews Rachel Dolezal, the White Woman Who Identifies as Black
http://www.thestranger.com/features/2017/04/19/25082450/the-heart-o...

This is the sort of thing I have in mind. Dolezal's claim to be Black seems to be based only on her desire to the be Black.

On the other hand, there are many people who think they can excavate a new identity based on family stories about an Indian great grandmother, or a DNA test that says they are 3 percent Native American.

I saw a piece on television a year ago. Many of those people also think they should be taken seriously as Indians when they say they are not offended by the Washington Redskins brand. Oh my.

I think we all know it's possible to have dual and overlapping identities. People from bi-racial families, for example. Or people who are both American & Mexican or American and Canadian. Or even Heather's example of people who are culturally Indian but don't qualify for tribal enrollment on technical grounds.

I was thinking earlier today the problem might be excavating identity, when it's not really a daily fact of life. But then I thought about adoptees. In a sense, those who search for their birth parents are trying to uncover something that is in one sense already there, but in another sense is just a blank till they find it and begin to deal with it.

Interesting to think about, certainly, but I think I'll just watch from a polite distance while my WASP friends turn themselves into Peruvian shamans and modern day Vikings ;)

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