Henry I "Beauclerc", King of England - Brand New Book, with all the documentation, you'll ever need to verify your lineages from HENRY I , (1070-1135) KING Of ENGLAND, DUKE Of NORMANDY, THE SON Of WILLIAM THE CONQUEROR & MATILDA OF FLANDERS and beyond!!!

continued: In some cases and don't quote me, but I think, you might need to get permission to there info , especially if it's copy wriited and how old the copy write is.

Private please stop complaining - this discussion is perfectly civil and it will remain open as long as it remains so.

People , people. This is crazy! This discussion is getting pot of control and very long winded. Can't you simply agree to disagree.? Sounds like this bickering is going to on going. Good luck to all of you .

And I was being the civil one... The others Not so much

I didn't anything uncivil but the party is getting rough between some. I haven't even read everything said since everything is so long winded. Plus I don't know what book they are talking about anyway and I did catch that someone was very sick, which I am sorry about. I wish him well.LIke I said don't know why everything has to be diseced and run over with a run away trai. Why can't people just disagree?

I am wondering that my self.. I could have very well been a smart arese and told some one off for their statment I don't know how you do not see that it is fraud and such michael but I didn't I kept my cool...

As I see it, Theresa tried to let the folks on Geni know about a book that was coming out soon and
1) was by folks she knew, liked, and respected
2) she thought would be of top quality
3) on a topic she thought would be of interest to many folks working on Geni
-- in this way, she was trying to help out both the folks on Geni (who she thought would benefit from this book) and the folks who created this book (who would thus benefit from its sales)

Unfortunately - 1) her original post, meant to let us know about this book and what she expected from it, was viewed by some as an advertisement and was therefore reported by someone (probably a Curator) whose reporting caused the Thread to be listed as Reported and the first Comment to be blocked.

And - Unfortunately 2), when people on Geni checked out the Book, it looked to them to not be of top quality but rather to be a rehash - and even worse - they felt they recognized in it plagiarism from another source they were familiar with.

Theresa is -- of course -- loathe to condemn either these folks she knows, or the book they produced. She would like us all to accept and act on 'Innocent Until Proven Guilty', and she is hoping when she sees the full book, it will prove to be of the top quality she was expecting.
And she has (repeatedly) asked folks to hold off condemning it till the full book is out.
Instead, what folks have done is look a bit more, and seen more that seems worth condemning to them - which they have then reported here.

Theresa did nothing wrong in informing Geni-Users about this soon-to-be-released book, nor in asking that folks hold off on criticisms until the book is out.
Folks on Geni did nothing wrong in reporting their fears and observations of shortfalls and worse with regard to the book. And they do nothing wrong by continuing to do so.

Reading the detailed criticisms and analyses from several folks, it seems unlikely the book will live up to Theresa's (original) expectations. But I also see nothing wrong with her continuing to hope it will -- especially until the book is out and she has looked thru it.

Well described, Lois. That's the way I see it, too.

at least lois and i agree on somthing that's a historic first... I have never seen the book did not have the money to buy it and at this point have no intrest in going down to henri i when i am still trying to get most of the us lines i have in order first.. and if there is plagurisim and copyrights it is not to be hashed out as dirity laundry here huge shame on those who brought that up.. even if it was warrented... See that's why a set of rules and transpency is important.. I don't think my friend ment any ill intent but guility until innocent took over because this public discussion thread has and will continue to be anything goes.. if we had seperate sections.. say one for help.. one for gripers like most of the people on here and those who attacked the book.. one for other concerns etc etc that would be better

I agree.

Thank you for that, Lois. It's a good summary, and I fully agree that Theresa has done little wrong in this. She's acted in good faith, and I don't doubt has reliably reported what she's been told. As I've said before, I certainly don't condemn her for trusting those she knew and held in regard; indeed, I respect her for it.

The one point I should correct is that you say none of us have seen the full book. That's wrong. I have access to a fully copy. My initial comment was based on a limited selection of it because that seemed sufficient to review it. That was before the question of plagiarism arose. As I posted yesterday, I subsequently looked in more detail and eventually found content lifted from Wikipedia instead of Lewis's site. I spent a while longer opening it at random pages, but was unable find anything that wasn't lifted directly from one or other. I haven't looked at every page because I simply don't have time or inclination, and even if it resulted in locating a few pieces of original work, it would neither alter the fact that the book is brazen case of plagiarisation, nor that is poorly produced and effectively worthless.

At this stage, there is little left to question. The Poleys copied content Lewis's website without his permission, and then supplemented it with content from Wikipedia which has almost certainly been used contrary to the Creative Commons licence. The explanations Theresa has conveyed from the Poleys have, if anything, just contributed to the sense that this was done wilfully, rather than through some improbable accident.

Michael suggested earlier that folk here have accused them of fraud. I've not noticed anyone say that, and while it would be all too easy to jump to such an conclusion, I've been careful not to. That would suggest they've acted for personal gain, and that may very well not be the case. Chuck is seriously ill and may not be wholly himself -- twenty years ago I spent eighteen months in hospital having similar treatment, and I sometimes wasn't. It has been suggested Lara herself is not an expert, so may not have noticed a lapse in his work.

This is why I'm so eager to get them to withdraw this book. I sincerely hope Chuck makes a full recovery and is able to indulge in a long and fruitful life of genealogical research, and I wouldn't wish his reputation to be tarnished if this is an uncharacteristic aberration due to the drugs he's on. The accusation had already been made by other people on other forums before I raised it here, so it wasn't something that was going to stay hidden.

If you have specific questions about the book (that don't require me to scour every page), I'm willing to answer them.

Thanks, Richard.

I think it is a service to folks on Geni to let them know when a book which is mentioned on Geni has - or seems to have - problems. And the fact that Richard (and others? - not sure, too much to re-read) took the time to give so many specific details of the shortcomings and apparent plagiarism - not just a generic slam of the book - I think that was very valuable and a positive thing to do.

Michael, I'm only commenting on the book on Henry I's ancestry, because that's the only one I have access to, but it would be interesting to know if the standard of this book is indicative of the whole series, or whether it is anomalous. If I correctly understood the earlier comments, an "editorial team" was involved in the production of some of the other books which might mean they are rather different. Also, the 70+ books may have been written over a long period, even if they were published together. Given time, it's quite feasible to write that many books. Look at Agatha Christie for example: from memory, she wrote 73.

I would add one more point.

The original post contained as one of the selling points that the book gives the line back from Charlemagne to Constantine. This is a well-known line, but an old fake. It's known to be forged at two and possibly three points.

This claim alone, even without any of the suspicions of plagiarism, would be enough to throw the book in the garbage. It doesn't matter how well-intentioned the authors might have been, this line shows they didn't do even basic research.

The authors have not pulled the book from Amazon (as of a few minutes ago), but word seems to be getting around. I heard about it this morning from two friends who are not on Geni and who haven't heard about the discussion here. Oh my.

Justin Durand I was aware that from charlimage to constantine was and will be highly disputed for some time but a out right fake? that's a discussion though for another post

Michael, you said

> Justin Swanström I was aware that from charlimage to constantine was and will be highly disputed for some time but a out right fake? that's a discussion though for another post

Yes, Michael. An outright fake. The details would make an interesting discussion but the conclusion is not in dispute.

I thought I'd look up the alleged line back to Constantine, more for late-night amusement over a glass of whisky than for anything else. I was expecting something based on Geoffrey of Monmouth, who gave Constantine a grandson(?) who was King of the Britons, and traced the descent through various legendary and semi-legendary figures like Vortigern and King Arthur, before hitting a less fictional line of Welsh princes. But I was curious as to how that would connect to Charlemagne who has few (13?) proven ancestors.

Nothing of the sort. First of all, so far as I can see, the book doesn't actually have a line from Charlemagne to Constantine the Great that I could see. (Though it's not easy to tell because of the bad formatting and duff references.) But Constantine is given as an ancestor of Henry I, and the line was a new one on me. It followed the Norman line back to Duke Richard I's wife Gunnor. In reality her parents are unknown, but Poley's book makes her a daughter of Harald Bluetooth. After Harald's father Gorm 'the Old' comes a list of semi-legendary Danish kings from the sagas, though it contains more generations than the versions I'm familiar with. Halfdan's mother is made a Vandal princess, and thence follows a vaguely plausible line to Constantius III. He is made a grandson of Constantine the Great, which I'm pretty sure wasn't the case.

Was that what you were expecting, Justin? Because it's certainly not the line I expected!

LOL. You have to be talking about Hildis of the Vandals. It's worse than I thought. Never in my most uncharitable moment would I have thought they'd go that direction ;)

Hildis of the Vandals

Everyone:

I have recently purchase Royal Ancestors (5 vol) from Douglas Richardson, here is his reply to my question of which of his books is the best buy. According to Dourglas, Royal Ancestors also includes everything in The Plantagenets and Magna Carta Ancestry...........here is the excerpt of his email to me:

From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royalancestry@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 2:03 AM
To: Ellen
Subject: RE: PLANTAGENET ANCESTRY & ROYAL ANCESTRY

Dear Ellen ~

I received your e-mail. Good to hear from you.

I currently have three books for sale, namely:

Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd ed., 3 volumes, published in 2011.
Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd ed., 4 volumes, published in 2011.
Royal Ancestry, 5 volumes, published in 2013.

I recommend you purchase the Royal Ancestry book, as it has everything in the other two books, plus 1,000 pages of additional information.

You can place a book order by sending me money through PayPal. To send money through PayPal, you simply need a valid credit card and my e-mail address which you have.

As soon as PayPal has confirmed payment, I'll get your book order right off to you. When ordering, please state in the customer notes what book title you are ordering.

Or, if you prefer, you can call me at (801) 680-5811 and I can take your credit card information over the phone. I can use a PayPal reader to charge your credit card.

The price for the Royal Ancestry book is $190.00, plus $5.00 postage and handling. The total price would be $195.00.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Sincerely, Douglas Richardson

I hope this helps for anyone who is considering purchasing the best genealogy reference books.

Ellen

Thanks, Ellen. Richardson's books are the best, most up to date information in my opinion. I don't own any of them, but I've seen them and I've followed his discussions on SGM and other lists.

If richardson made a mistake and the person copied from it I could understand that because even the experts can be wrong once in a while but this looks like somthing diffrent... wouldn't you agree justin?

it would be one thing if he reposted a old copy of richardsons books but didn't say oops this line has since been refuted since I talked with him but I think it's somthing else...

having not even seen the books In question I don't know at all.
Way beyond my student budget to purchase these anyway

> If richardson made a mistake and the person copied from it I could understand that because even the experts can be wrong once in a while but this looks like somthing diffrent... wouldn't you agree justin?

Michael, this seems to be a bit different. This book copied from a website that entered data from Richardson, but then the book also used other sources (very bad sources) for some fake lines.

So, the problem never had anything to do with Richardson.

I have a digital copy of Plantagenet Ancestry which I found useful.

Censored!

The discussion about this book has been hashed out enough. I'm just going to close the thread.