O'Beolan or Ross

Boece, Historia (1527), book 15 chapter 5, see John Bellenden's translation of 1540, in History of Scotland, vol. 2, Tait, Edinburgh (1821), pp.422–424.

Names him "Hew, Lord of Ros" which i assume dates 1540 so preceeds Gordon.

https://archive.org/stream/historychronicle02boec#page/422/mode/2up

I am trying to work out what the original source for the death roll at Halidon is (if this is a well known fact already i'd appreciate a clue :).

Could one of the Curators disconnect Fearchar Mac an t-Sagairt, Earl of Ross from his current parents. Fearchar Mac an t-Sagairt, Earl of Ross is not Farquhar's father.

The original heralds' lists don't exist, but there are several chronicles that report the data, Scots, English, and French. Some are quite close in time to the battle itself. I'm thinking here of the Lanercost chronicle, for instance.

Now, the date that a chronicle was written isn't the same thing as the age of the manuscript, which is almost always a copy.

So, "original" is a difficult thing to pin down, with medieval manuscripts. We have copies. Old copies, but copies.

The name Hugh O'Beolan, though, persists. That's what he was called at the time; that is what the medieval historians knew him as.

The Rosses are famous among people who are Scottish clan enthusiasts because there are three families of them. There are the O'Beolan earls, then the Balnagowan Rosses who might have been distantly related to them, then a third family in the 18th century who had the surname Ross but were definitely unrelated to the first two.

That's the only reason I know anything about them at all.

I think a large part of the confusion in this discussion has been caused by reading debates about the three families being related or not related, and thinking it is about whether the Ross earls themselves might have belonged to a different family.

Here is a link to Skene. If you read carefully you'll see that he is constructing an argument about the the Rosses of Balnagowan can be related to the Ross earls.
https://books.google.com/books?id=xIULAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA223&amp...

Then, there is also this link to a history of Clan Mackenzie that tries to show how the Mackenzies have a common descent with the Ross earls.
https://books.google.com/books?id=C9sGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=...

I don't know of an original casualty list for the battle of Halidon Hill. Maybe someone else knows. If you find one, I don't imagine it's going to magically waive the prejudices of the time and call him by his Gaelic name rather than his Scots name ;)

Do you know of any original casualty lists for medieval battles, at all, Justin? I don't know of any but I certainly may have missed the information

My guess is that those lists weren't useful or valued after the information got handed over and used by the chroniclers.

If that's true, if they exist at all, they're cut up and stuck in the bindings of other books.

I'm going to go look.

I agree with your last point, i am just wondering where Gordon gets "Builton" from, 100 years earlier Bellenden doesn't mention it at all. So is Bellenden the oldest copy or does something older exist?

I suppose my real question is what was Gordon's source, did he embellish Bellenden or did he have a better source than Boece?

Can someone confirm for me that Fearchar Mac an t-Sagairt, Earl of Ross

Needs to be merged into Fearchar Mac an t-Sagairt, Earl of Ross

Love the way the names are looking.

No, the closest I can think is various heralds' rolls, such as Caerlaverock and Falkirk, that list participants in a battle or siege.

Oh, yes, of course. And still not the "originals" -- fair copies.

Rotuli Scotiae, 1291–1516 (ed D Macpherson et al), vol 1, 1291–1377, London: Record Commission, 1814
English government documents relating to Scotland; texts in Latin and French, printed with special type to try to reproduce the contractions of words in the original documents.

Has the death roll (probably not all) at Halidon

Erica Howton -- these look like the same person to me. Did they both get MP'd because the Nua Ghaeilge spelling and the Anglicized spelling look so different?

Hector Boece is primarily famous for his lavish embellishments of history. He's almost always the source for every "just so" story about Scottish names. There is an often-repeated quote -- I only remember the end -- "often traceable to the same incorrigible old liar, Hector Boece".

I don't know that it will be possible to trace Gordon's source. Probably something that no longer exists. The English and Lowland Scots are notoriously bad (historically) at rendering Gaelic names, even when they care to try. If you get a chance to really dig in, it often turns out that there was some now-lost manuscript by a household priest who had access to now-lost sources and maybe our writer (Gordon, in this case) had access to it or maybe he didn't.

My guess would be that someone of Gordon's time and class probably knew in a cursory way all the origin stories then being circulated by all the other great families.

Eugene Thomas -- ah, thank you.

So the 1814 transcription from the record commission. I wonder what they were using.

Justin: Then there's whichever Ross family sprouted William Ross, Sr. - his father or family is thought to have come from Scotland by way of Barbados, and they test I2b1 (assuming no hanky-panky over ~400 years).

My Ross family tried to say they were related to Betsy Ross. Which was not possible.

There are a few individuals listed under Project Medlands who died at Halidon Hill. Accounts of the number of people who died here vary depending on who is telling the story.

Among the Scots nobility to be killed that day were Archibald Douglas himself, John Campbell Earl of Atholl, Alexander Bruce, Earl of Carrick, Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, Kenneth de Moravia, Earl of Sutherland and Hugh, Earl of Ross.

http://berwicktimelines.tumblr.com/post/91789918758/the-battle-of-h...

There should be many different Ross families, with different yDNA profiles.

The cultural fiction in the days before Culloden, and even now, is that all members of a clan were descended, often through some indeterminate line, from the distant male ancestor who gave his name to the clan.

But the reality was that people who lived in the "clan country" often adopted the surname of their chief as a default. In fact, there is evidence that the chiefs often encouraged their tenants to adopt the clan surname as a badge of membership and loyalty.

When I talk (above) about three different Ross families, I mean the three different families that held the chiefship of the Ross clan at different times. The 18th century transfer from one family to another is particularly interesting because there is no chance the two families had the same origin. Reading all the romantic gibberish, I've never been able to figure out whether they thought they did or whether they had some reason to perpetuate a convenient fiction.

Anyone care to develop Fearchar's father's profile?

(about time we got him off MacBeth! Malcolm MacAlexandair )

The Priest "An Sagart" O'Beolan

The merge of Fearchar's is done. To answer Anne's question - I think the reason for the 2 MPs was not enough coordination in the cleanup efforts, not for any other disagreements, or name Mis match (we take that for granted and use Search liberally).

I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that Fearchar was son of Malcolm. There's no hard evidence either way, but the earliest authorities were all agreed that Fearchar could not have been a son of his predecessor. There are variations, but the general idea is that Fearchar's mother or grandmother must have been an heiress of the old line.

Ah, Erica Howton -- thank you. that makes sense.

I think we can leave his actual parentage uncertain -- since it is -- and simply explain the various suppositions that the authorities, from the antiquarians on down, have as to his general antecedents.

I had asked the question years ago about him being a son of Malcolm and didn't get a clear answer, so had left it. It's very nice to see this revisited and corrected.

The discussion about Bealon is interesting and clearer than anything I'd seen before. Can that make it's way into the father's profile? And similarly, the postulates about the mother's ancestry?

Merge duty is calling. The dups keep flying in.

Erica, the current discussion is proof of something my grandmother used to say -- No one ever tells you anything unless you're wrong, then they won't shut up.

The best way to get something cleaned up on Geni is to say something outrageous, then everyone will come forward to tell you how wrong you are. I use that tactic all the time ;)

:) I am totally going to try that technique sometime.

Fearchar is said to have been a lineal desc the ancient Thanes of Ross and Moray, of whom the most famous was Macbeth. Malcolm II, was King of Scotland from 1005 to 1034, A. D. His second wife was Aelifu, of whom he had three daughters.
The youngest of these, Donada, married Finlegh, or Finley McRuaidhri, the Earl of Moray, Chief of Clan Fionnladh, who ruled over a large portion of northern Scotland, including the present Shire of Ross.
Their son was McBida McFinlay, or Macbeth, born circa 1005 A. D. who became King of Scotland from 1039 to 1056. Macbeth married Gruach, a daughter of Bodhe, and the widow of Gilcomgain, The succession is carried on by MacBoetha McFinlay, Thane of Cromarty, 1060 to 1093, who married Bethoca, daughter of Andrew McBrad. Their son, Rory or Ruari McFinlay, was Thane of Cromarty in 1152. Their son, Fergus McFinlay, was living in Cromarty in 1210. Their son, Eochiod, or Euginius, sometimes Shaw McDubh, was murdered by Walter Seneschal of Scotland, in 1223 A. D. His son, Fearchar, Chief of Clan Fionnladh, was living in 1236 in Aberdeenshire, and married a daughter of Patrick MacDonachadh.

http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/The_Findley_Genealogy_1...

Does this mean his father could be Eochiod?

It's a mystery. Everyone puts it together a different way. I think any guess could work, but they're all speculative.

Generation No. 1

1. Ruari1 Finley was born Abt. 1100, and died Abt. 1152.

Notes for Ruari Finley:
Ruari or Rory McFinlay was Thane of Cromarty from 1100 to 1152. Name for Descendant Outline purposes is Finley, to obtain continuity.
Child of Ruari Finley is:
+ 2 i. Fergus McFinlay2 Finley, born Unknown; died 1210.

Generation No. 2

2. Fergus McFinlay2 Finley (Ruari1) was born Unknown, and died 1210.

Notes for Fergus McFinlay Finley:
Fergus McFinlay was 4th son of Ruari or Rory.
Married heiress of Invercaula, Aberdeenshire
Known as Shaw or Farquar Shaw of Rothurmerchess
Chief of the Clan Fionnhaidh, a Sept of the original Hail-Kin clan Cattan. This clan Fionnlaidh descends from Fiacha O'Fhionnholia, King of Northern Ireland around 50 A.D.
Tennant of Rossen, Cromarty, in 1210.
Child of Fergus McFinlay Finley is:
+ 3 i. Eugenius McFinley3 Finley, born Unknown; died 1223.

Generation No. 3

3. Eugenius McFinley3 Finley (Fergus McFinlay2, Ruari1) was born Unknown, and died 1223.

Notes for Eugenius McFinley Finley:
Was Eugenius or Eochiod McFinley, 4th son of Fergus McFinley.
Shaw Dubh or Shaw Farquar(son)
Married heiress of Invercauld.
In 1223 was murdered by Walter Seneschal of Scotland
Child of Eugenius McFinley Finley is:
+ 4 i. Fearchar MacFinley4 Finley, born Bef. 1223; died Unknown.

Generation No. 4

4. Fearchar MacFinley4 Finley (Eugenius McFinley3, Fergus McFinlay2, Ruari1) was born Bef. 1223, and died Unknown. He married FNU MacDinachadh, daughter of Patrick MacDonachadh. She died Unknown.

Notes for Fearchar MacFinley Finley:
Lived in Braes of Mar, Aberdeenshire.
Son of Shaw Dubh of Rothiemerchess.
Chief of the Clan Fionnlaidh.

His great grandson was Finnula Mor or Great Findlay
Child of Fearchar Finley and FNU MacDinachadh is:
+ 5 i. Archibald5 Finley, born Unknown; died Abt. 1338.

Generation No. 5

5. Archibald5 Finley (Fearchar MacFinley4, Eugenius McFinley3, Fergus McFinlay2, Ruari1) was born Unknown, and died Abt. 1338. He married Margaret Robertson, daughter of William Robertson. She was born Unknown, and died Unknown.

Notes for Archibald Finley:
Archibald distinguished himself at the Battle of Largs in Ayrshire against the Norwegians on October 21, 1236. Land records show that he is to occupy 1/2 portion of land in Rousnot
Children of Archibald Finley and Margaret Robertson are:
+ 6 i. William6 Finley, born Unknown; died Aft. 1307.
7 ii. Roger Finley, born Unknown; died Unknown.
8 iii. Richard Finley, born Unknown; died Unknown.

I now return to working on jazz musician trees. :):)

Please finish off the names? We're so close ....

As Fearchar's father's profile is simply a place holder i have changed the display name to "t-sagairt", obviously "the priest" is not a proper name but it's more interesting/informative than N.N.

The father I found, Eugenius is not correct?