Grey Matters

New England Historical & Genealogical Register concurs, more or less, though they area every bit as male-chauvinistically blind: https://books.google.com/books?id=zyhAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA296&lpg...

That Hawise, and *not* her husband, was the de Grey is strongly indicated by the charter in which she refers to John de Grey, Bishop of Norwich, as "*my* brother", not "*my husband's* brother". Charters were usually extremely precise in such matters, as land holding and transmission was *important*.

We have at least two separate trees for Henry de Grey of Codnor, and both are riddled with errors.

The other one has a Pending Merge, but both profiles have wildly differing birth dates that don't match ANYTHING, and a curator's note dissociating him from the Greys of Rotherfield.

Sir Henry de Grey, Baron Grey of Codnor

I have not, incidentally, been able to find any primary evidence for the existence of an "Elena de Clare" in the Clare family or anywhere else. Is this one of those old fictions that have been retold so often everyone thinks it "must be true"?

PS: Yes it is CodnOr, not "CodnEr". This requires correction also.

Can we have some attention here PLEASE????

The early Grey line is getting HASHED because of bad assumptions and *bad Curators' notes*. I just kicked a bogus wife and offspring off John de Grey, BISHOP OF NORWICH - who lived in a time when *priests could not marry*. (They could, and some did, have mistresses on the down-low, but it was severely frowned upon - and there are not even rumors that John de Grey had any such thing going on.)

I was thinking the same thing...

Again with the trash talking Michael? Can you really not help yourself?

Tudorplace is not trustworthy - it's a dogpile. Sometimes they are WAY WAY wrong.

Several quasi-authoritative sources have debunked the "Croy" origin for the Grey family, pointing to Graye-sur-mer in Normandy as a more likely origin point.

As I keep saying, it was - and to way too great extent still seems to be - impossible for male-chauvinist genealogists and historians to wrap their heads around the idea that a family name could be transmitted by a *woman* who married a lesser-status man. So they keep faking up mis-marriages within the family, or even throwing Hawise out altogether and forcing a fake mis-marriage to get her "back in".

I would look to MedLands first, because the site owner goes out of his way to cite original sources to the best of his ability. He doesn't always give *enough* information, and a few of his sources have been debunked (he's much more careful about that now), nor does he always go back far enough (apparently he gave up on the Greys pastward of Henry because there was so little to go on). But it's a reasonable place to start.

As for Henry de Grey, there is a fairly strong consensus on his death date as 1219. There is less of a consensus on his birth date, running from 1155 (some agreement) to 1161 (some agreement on that) to 1178(!) or even later.

Some of the disagreement, one *must* suspect, is caused by mis-fathering and then forcing his birth date into compliance.

There is a persistent legend, possibly apocryphal, that Henry's mother was an "Elena de Clare". That may be part of the warping also.

I think that could be worded a little better but yes I concur that some places are not trust worthy at all...

I'm not feeling especially diplomatic tonight, not after the John de Grey (Bishop of Norwich) fiasco.

Maven, you're a treasure. We don't thank you often enough for all the work you do.

Pamela, we need all willing hands!

Yeah neither am I with the way lois has been towards me and others.

To begin at the beginning (or at least near it), the Domesday Book cites several holdings by an Ansketil de Graye in 1086:

[Little] Thurrock, Barstable, Essex
Orsett, Barstable, Essex
[Grays and West] Thurrock, Chafford, Essex
[Black] Bourton, Bampton, Oxfordshire
Brighthampton, Bampton, Oxfordshire
Rotherfield [Greys], Binfield, Oxfordshire
Cornwell, Shipton, Oxfordshire
Radford, Shipton, Oxfordshire
Woodleys, Wootton, Oxfordshire
Chastleton, Shipton, Oxfordshire

There are lots more listings for holdings by "Ansketil" (it was a surprisingly popular name), but the ones above are the ones researchers are certain belonged to Ansketil de Graye.

This person is not among the approximately 40 names verified as "Companions of the Conqueror", meaning those who landed with him at Hastings. However, Hastings was just the start of a long campaign of conquest and "pacification", and many more people joined in later.

We can take it as read that Ansketil de Graye was at least 21 in 1086, probably older, and that he had at least something to do with the "pacification" or he would not have been so well rewarded.

Was wondering when you were gonna show up..

Like I said earlier It's a no win here working with people. plus i'm not really familar with this area enough yet to make any kind of judgment call. I liken this to the isreal palenstine thing... it's a no win.. and I wish you guys would stop trying to get me to pick a side.

I'm not interested in "sides", just in ascertaining the actual facts. They are thin on the ground, and there is far too much speculation and wild-guessing.

Editorial comment in the Norfolk Antiquarian Miscellany may have been the first place to suggest that the Grey families originated, *not* from Croy in Picardy, but from Graye-sur-mer, near Caen, Normandy. https://books.google.com/books?id=5UMuAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=P...

The New England Historical and Genealogical Register explored the question further, with a slightly different set of descendants: https://books.google.com/books?id=zyhAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA300&lpg...

But both of them make the same error concerning Hawise de Grey - they did *not* realize that she was a de Grey by birth and not by marriage. We have the evidence of her charter - which perhaps they did not - to prove that she was the blood sister of John, Bishop of Norwich, and *not* a mere sister-in-law.

Victoria County History reconstruction of the descent of Rotherfield Greys runs thusly:

The mesne tenancy of Rotherfield Greys descended presumably through Anketil's son Richard to his grandson Robert, who held the manor in 1166 and who apparently died childless. (fn. 118) Thereafter the manor passed to Robert's nephew John (d. by 1192), his brother Anketil's son. (fn. 119) John's daughter and heir Eve married the royal judge Ralph Murdac, who was lord in 1192 but whose lands were forfeited in 1194 for rebellion. (fn. 120) Rotherfield Greys was restored to Eve and her second husband, Andrew de Beauchamp, probably before 1200. (fn. 121) Although not without heirs, before 1240 and possibly as early as 1215 Eve gave the manor to her kinsman Walter de Grey, archbishop of York, who settled it on his brother Robert de Grey. (fn. 122) The archbishop nevertheless retained a life interest in the manor and advowson, for which he paid a nominal rent. (fn. 123) On his death in 1255 his heir was his nephew Sir Walter de Grey, son of Robert. (fn. 124) Sir Walter died in 1268 and the manor passed in the direct male line to Sir Robert de Grey (d. 1295), (fn. 125) Sir John (d. 1311), and John, 1st Lord Grey of Rotherfield (d. 1359). (fn. 126) John came of age only in 1321, Edward II meanwhile granting the manor to Thomas Wale for 10 years. (fn. 127)

John, 2nd Lord Grey, succeeded in 1359 and died in 1375, leaving as heir his son Bartholomew, who died the same year. The manor then passed to Bartholomew's brother Robert, who died in 1388 and was succeeded by his daughter Joan, an infant. (fn. 128) Joan married Sir John Deincourt, Lord Deincourt, who had livery of the manor in 1401; (fn. 129) he died in 1406 and his widow in 1408, leaving as heir their infant son William (d. 1422). (fn. 130) His heirs were his sisters Alice, who married William Lovel, Lord Lovel (d. 1455), and Margaret, wife of Sir Ralph Cromwell. (fn. 131) The manor remained divided between them until Margaret died in 1454, leaving Alice as heir; (fn. 132) she subsequently married Sir Ralph Butler, later Lord Sudeley, and held Rotherfield Greys until her death in 1474. (fn. 133)

118. Misc. Gen. et Her. 5th ser. V, pp. 161–4.
119. Ibid. 164; Eynsham Cart. I, p. 84.
120. Eynsham Cart. I, pp. 84, 90; Misc. Gen. et Her. 5th ser. V, 164; Pipe R 1194 (PRS n.s. 5), 15–16; Pipe R 1195 (PRS n.s. 6), 44, 60; Chanc. R 1196 (PRS n.s. 7), 203.
121. Cf. Farrer, Honors, III, 238; VCH Oxon. XIII, 180.
122. Cal. Chart. 1226–57, 250–1; Cart. Worcester Cathedral Priory (PRS n.s. 38), pp. 121–2.
123. Oxon. Fines, pp. 131–2.
124. New DNB, XXIII, 467; Cal. Chart. 1226–57, 293; Rot. Hund. II, 38.
125. Excerpta e Rot. Finium, II, 464–5; Cal. Inq. p.m. III, p. 183.
126. Cal. Inq. p.m. V, p. 194; X, p. 406; Complete Peerage, VI, 145–7.
127. Cal. Inq. p.m. VI, pp. 204–5; Cal. Pat. 1307–13, 492.
128. Cal. Inq. p.m. XIV, pp. 134–5; XVI, p. 222; Complete Peerage, VI, 147–9.
129. Cal. Close 1399–1402, 247.
130. Complete Peerage, VI, 150; Cal. Inq. p.m. XIX, p. 219; XXII, pp. 92, 227.
131. Complete Peerage, IV, 127–9.
132. PRO, C 139/159/34; Complete Peerage, IV, 127–8; cf. VCH Oxon. XI, 60.
133. Complete Peerage, IV, 129; PRO, C 140/47/64.

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol16/pp266-302

Ok. I,ve looked at this and learned some stuff still trying to digest it all. Is this later part of clan rutherin.. Or is that a entirely diffrent gray area i am thinking of?

Grey of Ruthin was later.

(Wikipedia) The title of Baron Grey de Ruthyn (sometimes spelt Ruthin) was created in the Peerage of England by writ of summons in 1324 for Roger Grey, a son of John Grey, 2nd Baron Grey of Wilton. It has been abeyant since 1963. The Ruthyn branch of the Grey family based itself at Ruthin Castle in Wales.

Getting back to the founder, Anchetil, various charters and such give him four or perhaps five sons, but the order of birth is uncertain: William (who may have been the eldest), Richard and/or Robert, another Anchetil, and Columbanus (where'd he pull *that* name from?).

Anchetil senior got crosswise of William Rufus for some reason, and the King (allegedly) threw him in prison where he soon died, and dispossessed his wife and son William. (Abingdon Chronicle, vol. 2, p. 17).

Anketil II definitely had a son Robert (land exchange charters, early 12th century).

Richard de Grey had at least two sons, one of whom went to a monastery prior to 25 Dec 1109. (Eynsham Cartulary)

William and Columbanus lived into the reign of Henry I, but nothing is reported of wives or descendants.

Will work on this more later.

yes that's what i thought about grey of ruthin.. thank you.. yes.. I see now..

didn't want to get those two messed up.. Now I see where this is going... hmm..

Thanks for all your work on this Maven.

It's all very difficult, because no two reconstructions agree exactly and there's always a certain amount of guesswork involved.

The Rotherfield line appears to run Anchetil I > Richard > Robert (no children); to nephew John (son of yet another Anketil, brother of Robert) > Eve (sole? heiress); purchased from her by Walter the Archbishop and granted by him to his brother Robert > Walter > Robert > John (d. 1311) > John, 1st Lord Grey of Rotherfield > John, 2nd Lord Grey > Bartholomew (died heirless); to Bartholomew's brother Robert > Joan (sole? heiress) = Sir John Deincourt > Wiliam Deincourt (died young); to sisters Alice and Margaret, who shared it until Margaret died in 1454. Alice had married William, Lord Lovel, and her heir was Francis "Lovell Our Dog", who survived Bosworth but got involved with Lambert Simnel's cause and was MIA after the battle of Stoke (1487).

Subsequent history of Rotherfield has no connection to the Grey family.

Found a satisfactory place to put Henry de Grey (first lord of Codnor): in between Hawise and Bishop John. I'm not all that confident of anything about it, but the dates fit approximately and it gives John an older brother to do the secular things (like marry, have kids, etc.)
.

I'm still not sure whether Robert de Grey, son of Ansketil II, and Robert de Grey, of Rotherfield, supposedly one of the sons of Richard de Grai (son of Anschetil I and brother of Ansketil II) are the same person or not. It makes little difference, as he died without offspring and his "next of kin" John de Grey (son of Anketil III son of Richard) inherited Rotherfield. (Then John left only one daughter, Eve, and another relative, Walter de Grey, Archbishop of York, bought Rotherfield from her and gave it to *his* brother, Robert.)

Private User sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and go for the favourite relationship but leave notes/discussions on the project so that when they are revisited people can see the thought processes behind the decision.

Bringing this back up because the Greys have gotten so thoroughly messed up - again.