Alchemists and surgeons

I've been intending to create a project for alchemists. However, during the medieval down through Isaac Newton there is no meaningful difference from scientists. Not sure whether to look for a place to draw a line or try to find a workable title.

It looks like the difference between barber-surgeons and surgeons was in the English guilds

http://thechirurgeonsapprentice.com/2010/09/15/surgeons/

The barber-surgeons and surgeons existed separately until 1540, when Henry VIII integrated the two through the establishment of the Barber-Surgeons Company. Although united, tensions between the barber-surgeons and surgeons persisted until the two eventually split in 1745.

On the other hand

From http://io9.com/5965741/how-barbers-became-surgeons

"the last barber-surgeon died in the 1820s."

So yes, I guess I'm seeing separate projects, and profiles can be in more than one.

Love the term "alchemist" and would think of them as a variety of scientist, but that scientists include those who were not alchemists.

Yes, I agree. Someone can be in both a barber and a barber-surgeon project. Now should we make a separate surgeon project or put them in the existing doctor project?

I stumbled on to the profile of Dr. John Woodall and beefed it up, but I can't add him to any projects. He is such a prominent person that he belongs to several. He was a Paracelsian chemist so I am thinking he should be added to the Prominent Scientist project - correct? Speaking of Paracelsian, where do those guys fit?

If someone would please add him to one of the appropriate projects, I can add him to others.

I added Dr. John to the 'doctor in the house', Leslie Ann. Also MP!

Thanks Dan Cornett :-)

In popular usage alchemy is a precursor to modern chemistry. However, in the strictest sense of the word it encompasses all the sciences of the day. It was a spiritual discipline, as well as the foundation for biology, medicine, and physics, as well as being intertwined with and astronomy (astrology), geography, mathematics, etc. It would be sad to see Geni make an artificial distinction.

Justin Durand Do you think we should place all alchemists, chemists, and scientists in the Prominent scientist project or create a separate one for those who are not so prominent?

Leslie, that's the hardest kind of question.

I always want to respect the scope of a project as it was laid out by the project creator. If there is some reason I don't like it, I can "vote with my feet".

And in this case I don't really like it. Too classist for my taste. It's just my personal opinion, but I don't see any meaningful reason why a Scientists project would need to be limited by numbers to only the most prominent, and I think "prominent" is too subjective.

I want to add that I'm not attacking anyone for seeing the world a different way. I am purposely not going out to look at who created it so that I can comment without being influenced by personal considerations. (I just hope it wasn't me.)

Bottom line, I'm not wild abut the idea of two Scientist projects but given the alternatives I think it would be better to create a new one than to argue about the old one.

Things to remember about the "prominent" series:

- they are among the first projects created on Geni
- they precede the "occupation" portal (or concept)
- they are, if I remember correctly, based on a university - humanities course type listing
- as projects, they are more or less complete

So - I would create new "occupation" projects based more or less around how someone defined "himself / herself," and not a quality ascribed after the fact.

That said, I do like a smallish index of "notables" listed in the project, for PR, traffic, and to spark the thinking cap & look for associated figures.

Do I understand correctly -- you are suggesting we remove everyone before the 19th century because they couldn't self-identify as a scientist before the word was invented??

;)

No, I'm sorry if that was the impression given.

I'm just trying to say that the history of the "prominent ..." series, as I recall it, was not conceptualizing them as "occupations," so it might be trying to put apples with oranges to have them as "occupation" projects -- however we want to define those.

Barber-surgeon as an occupation may include profiles on the "Prominent Scientist" page, but they are different projects looking at the profile from different points of views (and sources).

Private User An important and fascinating topic! To even begin to do it justice would require a full project of its own! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

Isn't it possible to do a case by case review of whether both the criteria of prominence and scientist - as we mean it today - are fulfilled by the person, even if that wasn't their job description at the time?
Surely there will be only a few who will fit into this project from the alchemist and barber job description categories?

List of almost 100 Alchemists: http://www.ranker.com/list/the-greatest-alchemists-in-history/saint...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_medicine_and_medical_tech...

I was fascinated by Ramon Lull myself.

Ok....I am going to bite the bullet and create an Alchemy project.

This morning I did find a barber project https://www.geni.com/projects/Barber/26469 Still waiting to hear back from project creator.

In doing research on Dr. John Woodall I cane across your thread. Wondering if anyone had seen this article on Dr. John Woodall? Written June 18, 2004.

https://www.ancestry.com/mediaui-viewer/collection/1030/tree/109111....