Askold A Varangian, Semi-legendary ruler of Kiev - Unsourced Relationships

Private User perhaps you do not realise that Geni is only a software platform? Geni is NOT doing anything to "fix" the bad relationships and mistaken connections.

If you find a technical problem Geni will do their best to fix it but problems with the information are of no interest to them.

The Curators are all volunteers, they do not work for Geni. Initially the Curators were a group of Geni customers that were working hard to "fix" the information in the tree although they have morphed into something more than that over the ears. There are also hundreds of other users, myself included, who tidy up a little here and a little there in the hope that we can make a difference against the constant stream of users who for what ever reason make duplicates, separate trees and bad connections.

If you are waiting for Geni to fix the tree you should just quit now, on the other hand if you want to help then you will find lots of other users that will welcome and support you.

Alex Moes, I know Geni is a tool only for entering data, and that they of course cannot validate what the users do. I wrote about my current experience with my family tree entered on the site, and my frustrations about all the problems I try to sort out, just like you do. I have gotten a lot of help from curators, as many of the problem areas already have a MP close to the problem, and they are very helpful in fixing up problems. I do try to figure out a lot first, to not overload the curators, but when things are locked down, or badly merged, only they are able to help out.
I wish Geni would impose more integrity tests when merging, to avoid fatal errors like the examples mentioned in this thread. However exporting a gedcom and validating it has helped me to locate these errors. Here Geni as a software tool has big potential to make integrity checks also online, like FamilySearch.org to some extent does.
I wonder if you are able to export and validate your work as far back as the vikings? The number of profiles I am able to export does not inlcude so many ancestors. How do you work to validate relationships? Eg. mother not too young / old, children not born too close etc?

Johannes, that what you wrote, "mother not too young / old, children not born too close etc", are exactly what I'm trying to sort out. It seems that not even always the ones that work as historians have tried to present that, leaving presentations with vague information in some cases.

I did one such estimation from Sigurd Ring forward to Olof Ring, it turns out that every father in that line must have been just around 14-16, when they had their sons and that also was in line when they become kings.

In fact, this was mentioned in Heimskringla, it was a tradition that when the kings sons for the first time involved in a raid, they were declared kings as an honor, mentioning one of them as young as 12 year old when he was crowned. It also says that they had older adviser with experience to guide them.

When I presented this age with line, not only was it questioned,suddenly even the persons were questioned, although these lines are already presented and some of the profiles also have more than one source.

Björn på Håga turns out to be in the age of 15-16, when he asked Louis I The pious for help in my estimation, Björn's profile on Geni still present him as only 4 years old when this happened, showing more than clear, that not only do anyone care, some of them will also become offended when corrected.

We all do mistakes, I do mistakes, experts do mistakes, does it really matter who points them out in order to correct obvious errors?

Private User remember to give citations when you cite Heimskringla - which saga, which king and which place.

I don't think there was any such tradition. But I'll back down when presented with quotations.

(And I'm still waiting for the pointer to a version of Ragnarsona þattr that talks about Askold as a son of Hvitserk, which I asked for on page 2.)

"Olav var tolv år gammal, då han steg på härskepp för första gången. Hans moder Åsta satte Hrane, som kallades konungsfostraren, till styresman över hären och till att följa Olav på färden, ty Hrane hade ofta varit på vikingatåg. Då Olav tog i mot hären och skeppen, gav folket honom konunganamn. Det var sed, att krigshövdingar som voro på vikingafärd, om de voro av konungasläkt, genast buro konungatiteln, även om de icke rådde över något land. Hrane satt vid rodret[2]; därför säga somliga, att Olav blott var roddare, men han var likväl konung över hären. De seglade österut[3] längs kusten och styrde först till Danmark. Så säger Ottar svarte[4], då han diktade om konung Olav: "
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A link too: http://cornelius.tacitus.nu/heimskringla/olav-helige/1-10.htm

Lets go back to my example with Björn på Håga, King of Sweden,
in his profile it says that he was born circa 825, he was the one that sat on the throne when Ansgar arrived to christian the swedes, he was the one responsible to have send two envoys to Louis the pious, that was the cause of the missionary Ansgar's arrival in 829, in Birka.

None, absolutely no swede what so ever have heard of the story that tells about the !!! 4 year old kid responsible for this mission!!!

It's only here in the Geni profile that this is possible, Why?

I could change the date, but then, most likely, somebody else would change it back because if he really was in the age of between 14-16,
that year 829, it would mean that the others birth of date, his father, his grandfather, would, like I suggested earlier in this discussion, all be very young kings that had their sons at a very young age, around 15.

Well, Olav The Holy was 12, but so was Ragnar Lodbroke also when he began to plunder, meaning that he was crowned king at the same time and age. He was 15 when he married, had two son, the mother died shortly after that. He remarried and had the rest of his children after that.

It was how the viking kings lived and it did not begun or end with them, but we may today regard that as odd, but for a long time until in to the 1600 century in Scandinavia, the age of 15 were the age when ordinary folk started to pay their taxes, meaning that they were of age and regarded as adults.

The royal families has long had a privilege, to be considered as adults some year earlier than common people, any one still question this or
can we take it as a fact?

@ulf thanks for the citation! I stand corrected on the "naming as king".
(it does show that the word "king" was used a bit differently than we use it now.)

There is an interesting dimension to the fact that all kings' sons might be kings themselves. Maybe a little off-topic here, but perhaps worth mentioning in case anyone is interested.

In the epic poem Nibelungenlied there are three brothers Gunther, Gernot and Giselher, sons of Gebicca. They correspond to the historical figures Gundaharius, Gundomar, and Gislaharius.

They are all Burgundian kings. As the oldest brother, Gunther is the senior king and the only one called King of the Burgundians. His younger brothers are just King Gernot and King Giselher.

In the story, it's not clear whether the brothers have divided the Burgundian kingdom, but they each command part of the Burgundian army and they live with their war bands in different parts of the Burgundian kingdom. As the senior king, Gunther's seat is the Burgundian capital.

Their kinsman Hagen is not a king. He has no war band and is one of Gunther's vassals. His relationship to the brothers isn't clear, but it's implied that he is their half-brother, apparently son of their mother (because his father is Aldrian not Gebicca). However, in the Prose Edda, Hagen is a brother or half-brother on their father's side. In Thidreks saga, Hagen is the son of their mother by an elf. Etc. Anyway, for whatever reason Hagen doesn't have the status of king.

Their sister Kriemhild also has her own share of the Burgundian war band, which she takes with her to her husband's court. These warriors and her command over them are part of her inheritance. It's never made explicit, but the context assumes that their role is to increase her dignity and independence, and to protect her honor at a foreign court.

In this and similar stories, there are always rivalries and sometimes disputes among the different war bands when the kings get together. There is also tension between Kriemhild's war band and her husband's. In the end, Kriemhild's war band plays an independent role in the battle between her husband and brothers. In other words, they really are her own men, not just on detached service from her brothers' army.

The Nibelungenlied is set in the 5th century migration period, but wasn't composed in its current form until about 1200. It's certainly not history. Nevertheless, the social background is so different from 13th century Germany that most scholars think it preserves many elements of ancient Germanic and Norse practice.

It stills shows that he was born around 825, and not at all surprisingly, his father is in the profile said to be born between 783 - 825.

Björn på Håga, Sveakung

The idea that the son to the kings themselves become kings, skipping the prince titles as soon as they got into their puberty, is not only likely, that's how it's must have been. As soon as they reached pre-adulthood, they were declared kings and was given an adviser, not before that, not
after that, meaning that they were in the age of between 12-14, when that happen. Björn på Håga's adviser are also mentioned, Hergeir, the same man that donated land to Ansgar to build a church. Hergeir was also the minister of Birka at that time. With this facts and theories given, in the year of 829, Björn would be supposedly born around the year 815.
His father was then most likely born before the year 800.

Ulf, I think you're over reading the evidence.

First, I see Björn born about 825, but for his father I see no date of birth. Just a Geni estimate "between 783 and 825". Maybe someone changed it in the last few minutes and the revision history hasn't updated yet.

What surprises me is that anyone thinks they can come up with a reason estimate of when these guys were born. Sure, you can spend a lot of time correlating sources and events and come up with a ballpark figure, but statements like "he would have lived in the early 9th century" are the most reasonable way of expressing the high chance of error.

It doesn't surprise me that users will merge duplicate copies over and over again, and that will introduce dates that no one wanted or reviewed.

I also think you are missing a key point about the sons of kings being kings from a certain age. There seems to be no doubt that was an early, localized custom. It's attested in some places, not in others. There also seems to be no doubt that it was gone by early middle ages. No doubt there was a wide variety of practices but even if not there must have been a period of transition.

Unless someone can pinpoint each local variation and pinpoint the exact time when the custom changed, it's just guessing to try to read that particular custom back into every case where we don't know. The honest answer is to admit we don't know, not make up stories.

I guess everybody else are under reading what's really out there.

In the beginning of the 850, King Olof ruled in Svitjod when Ansgar arrived to Birka again to reestablish the christian parish, he was believed to be a son of Björn at Håga, but not mentioned by the Icelandic people in their tales. In the life of Vita Anskarii, it is told that Olof led a war expeditions against people in the east that had previous been ruled by them but has broken free and not accepted the Svitjod supremacy in the beginning of 800.

Well, if Olof had 3 sons they would be Rurik, and theother two the ones with the misinterpreted names Sineus and Truvor, mentioned in the Nestor chronicle. It all make sense to me, and that's it.

Finally.

Askold a varagian? Yes, he was of Scandinavian descent according to the stories.