Askold A Varangian, Semi-legendary ruler of Kiev - Unsourced Relationships

Harald, are you trying to insult me by direct a question to me with someone else name. Are you serious at all?

@ulf I have a long standing bug with Chrome and the Geni @-mention (the pulldown with the names goes off the screen, so I have to guess at what I'm getting). My apologies.

Harald,

I use Chrome also and find that sometimes i can scroll up and find the @ pull-down menu in another part of the page, i then use the up/down arrows to choose the correct name.
The other fool-proof solution is to quickly visit the users profile and copy their ID number and paste it between double square brackets [[ ]]

Ulf,

"Ragnar were born around 765..."

Says who?
Your jig-saw puzzle only works if we accept this date [and a generational span of 15 years] but what foundation have you built your theory on?

Justin Swanström wrote
"I'm left with the feeling that if Rurik had been that closely related to the Ring dynasty, the Primary Chronicle would have made a point of mentioning it."

I choose to put in a quote here from a work "Dissertation for the degree of Philosophiae doctor (PhD)" because it say what I previous said, in order to make it understandable to what I am aiming at, viz the none existing father of Rurik, due to politic in order to glorify the slaves in their relatively new state.

"The historicity of the Primary Chronicle’s narrative for most of the early phase of Rus history up to the mid-tenth century, however, is problematic in several important aspects.

Firstly, the text was compiled much later than the period in question, in a rather different context and is foremost a literary expression of the civilization and the political system prevailing in Kiev at the time of its composition.

Secondly, instead of being a homogenous work authored by one person, the Chronicle is a compilation of several texts of varying antiquity. It has been shown, for instance, that for the period up until the mid-tenth century the text relies heavily on Byzantine texts, including biblical models, which are possibly overlaid with legendary accounts or traditions that survived from this period."

https://bora.uib.no/bitstream/handle/1956/6895/Dr.thesis_T_Hraunda....

Ulf,

I don't mean to be rude but I don't think much of your argument that most people are not familiar with this subject and that anyone who is familiar would come to the same conclusion you have.

That argument would work better if I hadn't studied this stuff in grad school. It seems to me you're talking to a room full of people who have also studied the subject. It's as bit condescending to suggest that you are the only one qualified to judge.

Well, Justin that was based on what I saw here by the way some people responded to me, when in fact, I really didn't do anything than putting together these kings in a line. Suddenly, the recorded ancestry was questioned in it self, not just only the thing that I tried to fit in Rurik, something that people have tried to do with various results long before me.

Alex, please understand that I haven't invented this.
This Björn at the Håga, is the son of Erik Björnsson, the son of Björn Järnsida, the son of Ragnar Lodbroke.

829: Björn at Håga was according to Hervarar tale, called 'Björn at the pile', the son of Erik Björnsson and reigned Svitjod with his brother Anund Uppsale. Attempts have been made to identify him with the king Björn present in the Vita Anskarii. If so, he may be identical to Björn at högen (on Adelsö), opposite Birka.

Snorri Sturlasson quotes several poems that had been composed by Brage Boddason, the court skald, serving at Björn at Håga (this is also mentioned in Hervarar saga). The poet is the first poet who was mentioned by name, and he is said to have composed the Ragnarsdrapa in memory of Björn's ancestor Ragnar Lodbrok.

The same year King Björn asks the French king Louis the Pious to help him to establish the Christian religion in the country by sending a missionary. The Catholic monk Ansgar is commissioned to go to Sweden and together with the monk Vitmar he comes to the commercial town Birka on the island Björkö in Lake Mälaren.

- Ansgar stays a year and a half in Birka and appears mainly among the Christian slaves from Western Europe that are there. One of the Swedes who asks to be baptized is Birkas minister Hergeir.

830: Ansgar and Vitmar leaves Birka and Ansgar is succeeded in the town by Gautbert. In Hamburg is an archbishopric established with the Nordic region as a mission field and Ansgar became the first archbishop.

852 Ansgar goes on his second mission to Sweden and Birka. This time he was received with disbelief. He bribing however, the king Olof Ring with gifts and so he finally gets his permission to build a church erected on Hergeirs farm.

----------------------

My estimation of dates of births based on the few facts available.
(Sigurd Ring dead 770)
his son
Ragnar Lodbrok born around 765
his son
Björn Järnsida born between 780-782
his son
Erik Björnsson --born between 797-800
his two sons --born between 812-816
Anund Eriksson (Emund) Uppsale and *Björn Eriksson (At the Håga)
Anunds son
*Olof Anundsson (Ring) born between 830-836
(the king in Svitjod mentioned 852 and 854 in Vita Anskarii)

Person mentioned above
Louis I, The Pious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansgar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bj%C3%B6rn_at_Haugi

Björn på Håga, Sveakung

Bjorn Eriksson
Born: cirka 825
Sweden
Dead: cirka 840 (7-23)
Sweden

Landnámabók mentions a Swede named Þórðr knappr who was one of the first settlers in Iceland and whose father was called Björn at Haugi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landn%C3%A1mab%C3%B3k

According to the Geni profile, Björn Eriksson was just around 4 years old when he asked the French king Louis the Pious to help him to establish the Christian religion in the country... Nice work!

Just for amusement, some more when was he born" stuff, from slightly more documented lines:

1133: Harald Magnusson got Sigurd Munn. Age 30.
1103: Magnus Berrføtt got Harald Magnusson. Age 30.
1073: Olav Kyrre got Magnus Berrføtt. Age 23.
1050: Harald Hardråde got Olav Kyrre. Age 35.
1015: Sigurd Syr got Harald Hardråde. Age 50.

So while a generational span of 15 years is not impossible, there's no evidence it was common.

Just a comparison, look at these two kings, it differs 62 year between when Olof Skötkonung ended his ruling and Inge took over, between them there were !!! 9 other Kings !!!

Olof Skötkonung
Ruled 995-1022
The first Sveaking that is regarded as certain of ruling over Uppland (Mälardalen) and Västergötland, he was the first baptist king and contributed to the Christianization in Sweden.

Inge den äldre (the older)
Ruled 1084–1087
King over Västergötland, then also Sweden.

Swedes may seem to had fewer pleasures?

Private User are you quoting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_monarchs ?

These aren't a genealogical line, of course. At least 3 were sons of Stenkil, who himself came out of "nowhere" (no clear links to the earlier royal houses that I can see).

"who himself came out of "nowhere" "

Kong Inge Stenkilsson av Sverige is Olof III "Skötkonung" Erikson, Kung av Sverige's great grandson!

http://www.geni.com/path/Olof-Eriksson-the-Treasurer-Sk%C3%B6tkonun...

Came out of "nowhere" and married the king's daughter, yes.

Not at all, found that there were duplicates that didn't "hang together".

Olaf "the Mighty" Björnsson, king of the Svear is Kong Inge Stenkilsson av Sverige's fourth great grandfather!

http://www.geni.com/path/Kong-Inge-Stenkilsson-av-Sverige+is+relate...

Justin Durand thanks for disconnecting Askold from rurik.

I think we should also disconnect Dir who currently displays as Askold's son which ive never seen suggested anywhere else. IF they were co-rulers it would seem more likely to me that the would be contemporaries rather than father and son.

I have looked also at Dir's "son" Malk, he is another semi-legendary type that no one knows the true origins of, certainly no indication of a link to the rurikids.

I also got curious about the Cyrillic names showing as brothers of Dir:

Brother of Синеус князь Белозерский and Трувор князь Кривицкий

SURPRISE! their names translate as Prince Sineus Belozersky and Prince Truvor Krivitsky, aka Rurik's supposed brothers.

I hesitate to merge them with the main profiles for Sineus and Truvor as i think this would end up with rurik as Askold's son?? Which i wouldn't be able to disconnect myself.

Sineus, as you mention ALEX, does mean HIS HOUSE, that is exactly
the same as HIS FAMILY BY BLOOD. Sineus is in plural, that mean several, more than one, of his family, if you embodies down them to one person, who do you believe it would be, some other persons, or totally strangers?
It must be someone near Rurik by common blood, he could be a brother, or a first cousin, but hardly further away than that.

Truvor at the other hand, are not necessary closely related, it just mean "real soldiers".

This line here are a totally waste of space. Or just rename it to Army.

Truvar of the Obotrites

Alex, you can go ahead and do the merges. I think any of the curators, me included, would be willing to disconnect Askold and Rurik as many times as it takes.

However, I don't think we're at a point where it makes sense to disconnect Askold and Dir. They were co-rulers, but I don't see any reason they couldn't also have been father and son. Or any reason that they couldn't have been the same person (as discussed earlier).

As I said before, I'd want to see what sources identify them as father and son. If the earliest is something from the 19th century, I'd have no hesitation about disconnecting them. But if the earliest is something like 14th century I'd balk.

In short, it's premature to talk about disconnecting people without having done even a rudimentary survey of the literature.

Private User unfortunately the line you propose goes via Ragnvald the Old, Earl in Västergötland - a wholly undocumented figure, whose birthdate is certainly wrong (born 75 years before Stenkil, and 50 years before his putative father).

Given no sources, it's tempting to disconnect him from both his father and his son, but you may have some sources for this one.

Yes, it's an speculation in Hervarsagan and by Snorre, it happened before their time and may very well be political influenced, but, it's not totally unlikely either, http://sok.riksarkivet.se/sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=7500

When it comes to sources, none have probably nothing against putting up this line from Sigurd "Ring" Randversson, Danish king {mythological} and forward with all his descendants, but none of you really tried to count out when they all had to be conceived in that line so that it match when they appear in the sources, when I did that none of you have responded well, contrary the opposite.

I read very good between the lines, and I hope that other that may follow this thread also can do that and hopefully also will see what kind of persons you really are.

I quote Justin, "In short, it's premature to talk about disconnecting people without having done even a rudimentary survey of the literature."
Read the sources, see what's possible and what's not, before you just act on your impulses. By the way, have you really read and tried to understand any of my posts in this thread?

Harald Tveit Alvestrand , just for the sake, in my family, we who are active on this site, are prepared to cut off anything that are false or not backed up,
none of us would like to have a tree that doesn't represent reality.
We are not interested in fiction lines, the majority of our lines back in time where already there when we joined, and believe me, we are checking them out one by one in order to see if they are trustworthy or not. Some of them have already been corrected, other cutted of,
it's an endless job considering the amount of profiles and the gap in intelligence by some of them who have putted them up, who in the h**l
would for example want to have a forefather who was married with his grandmother? There are endless mistakes out there, unfortunately it does not concern just my family when we go more than 300 years back, it certainly affect and includes your lines as well!

Harald Tveit Alvestrand is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 13th cousin!
http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Harald-Alvest...

Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinson, I certainly agree with you. Geni is taking so much time, just trying to sort out all the impossible relations that are in it. My last Gedcom export of ancestors reveals over 700 errors when importing and checking in Family Tree Builder, down from over 800 before I started correcting the tree. Using Timline on the mother reveals so many errors, I sometimes just want to give up on the entire site.

Yes, Johannes, I'm on the verge to give up sometimes, I've checked what happened yesterday, with my "easy" merges of identical persons in the tree, it turned out that this profiles had errors steaming from different sources, after the merges it went totally wrong in a lot of directions.

People with the same name, wife's, and kids should be the same person if they have the same grandfathers, obviously, that's not so simple as it should be.

If I see identical tree here on Geni, and I'm positive that it is the same profiles, then I want to merge them. The reason is because of that many people who put up trees often, but not always, only focusing on just their actual line, and thereby leaving siblings and extra husbands and wives out. Another reason to merge them are if someone search for the profile, then find doublets in the search engines with different amounts of facts
making it hard to actually understand what they see.

Now I must try to fix back the line from yesterday, if someone else haven't done that yet.

I'm unable to cut of Stenkil Ragnvaldsson, Kung av Sverige
fathers wife from him, Ingeborg Tryggvesdotter, could really
need some friendly soul to fix that. She was dead long before
Stenkil was born.

He was most certainly not married to his half sister
Maria Inga Edmundsdotter (Edmundsdotter of Sweden),
that wasn't allowed, instead he was married to
Maria Anundsdotter dotter of Anund Jakob Olofsson King in Sweden.
Stenkil, king of Sweden

Yes, this above is a side track because of what Harald talked about,
still, I see no point of creating a new thread for this, it's a simple task.
Maybe Private User could help to fix this?
Or some other Curator who doesn't have horns in the side to me?

Can we start a new discussion on the Stenkil profile for this subject?