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Eve de Bec (de Grey) - Wrong parents? Bad parental birth dates?

Started by Private User on Monday, April 20, 2015
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Private User
4/20/2015 at 7:42 PM

She was married in 1222, which argues for a birth date c. 1200 - c. 1210 (possibly a little earlier, but no later).
If those *are* her parents (which is somewhat open to question, as she is consistently described as the "niece of Walter (de Grey), Archbishop of York"), their birth dates need moving back an absolute minimum of ten years.

Walter de Gray/Grey, Archbishop of York, was probably born between c. 1175-1184. His parentage is somewhat disputed, but it is clear that he was the nephew of an earlier John de Gray, Bishop of Norwich and might-have-been Archbishop of Canterbury (King John wanted him, and actually got him elected, but the Pope set aside the results and installed his own candidate, Stephen Langton). He had an older(?) brother named Robert, on whom he bestowed various lands, and a sister Hawise, who is said to have married the Justiciar Philip Basset (c. 1185 – 19 October 1271).

Private User
4/20/2015 at 8:31 PM

Matter of fact, we do have a profile for Archbishop Walter Walter de Grey, Archbishop of York, but at least some of the information is inaccurate. He *cannot* have been born after 1184, as he would not have made the minimum age of 30 to be installed as Archbishop. He may have been inserted into the wrong Grey family. His brother Robert and sister Hawise are nowhere to be seen.
Terry Jackson (Switzer) C
4/21/2015 at 11:36 AM

A couple of points about Walter de Grey - there is no question about whether he was Archbishop of York but his date of birth is only "circa" so your premise that he was born before 1187 is within the remit of what is recorded on the profile however I have altered his date of birth to reflect the realms of probability.

Private User
4/21/2015 at 11:55 AM

Thanks. The rest of the family still needs more research, and Google Books has gone hit-and-miss again. :-P
Terry Jackson (Switzer) C
4/21/2015 at 3:17 PM

I have been looking at Eve de Grey (I live about 5 miles from Greys Court). There is great confusion and actually several versions of her profile on Geni. I have sent messages to the managers of the conflicting profiles suggesting that the tree be re-ordered to reflect FMG Medlands i.e.
Eva de Grey d/o John de Grey and unknown wife (he's brother of Watler Archbishop of York)
Married:
1. Ralph Murdac
Issue:Alice & Beatrice
2. Andrew de Beauchamp
Issue: John

There are still complications I'll have to work through but I just wanted to get some agreement from the managers and curators involved in these other profiles first.
Does that sound like a good plan?

Private User
4/21/2015 at 3:46 PM

Well, that screws the de Beke children, who now have the "wrong" mother and no father.

Private User
4/21/2015 at 3:48 PM

I think there are probably AT LEAST two Eve de Greys. One of them married whatshisname de Beke (de Bec) and the other one didn't. Now, which one is who?
Terry Jackson (Switzer) C
4/21/2015 at 4:33 PM

Perhaps I should not have sent above message till after I'd finished the trees however I did want you to know I am working on it. The de Bec/Beke children are now with their father and unknown mother until I can find some reference to a mother that will have to do.
Unknown Profile is looking a little isolated until I can merge with
Unknown Profile
and
Eva Beauchamp de Grey (this is a very slopply profile - it even says she died in Cornwall, Oxford - Cornwall is not in or near Oxford) It mentions she's married to Murdac but doesn't show the relationship in the tree. It does not mention de Bec but does mention a spurious marriage (IMHO) to a William Breton. I'll have to go to be in a minute and won't be able to spend much time on Geni tomorrow I'm afraid.

Private User
4/21/2015 at 5:26 PM

I'm pretty sure there were at least two Eve de Greys - either that or *all* the peerage records have been *very* wrong for a *very* long time.

Jamming them all together is going to cause more trouble than leaving the situation alone would have.

Private User
4/21/2015 at 6:09 PM

Let's look at something here.
Walter de Grey, Archbishop of York, born between c. 1175-1184.
Eva Murdac (de Grey), born 1172 - *very* unlikely to be his niece.
Eva de Beauchamp (de Grey), born 1164 - *cannot* have been his niece.
Forlorn Eve de Grey, floating on her isolated little island, born c. 1195 - *might* have been his niece.
There may be yet another Eve de Grey born c. 1200-1205 who would be the best fit.

Walter de Beke apparently did marry *somebody* in 1222, as there were records that he had paid a fine (fee) to the Exchequer for his marriage in that year. (This was also reported in the papers of Robert Glover, Somerset Herald 1571-1588, who was reputed to be " the most accurate and scholarly of the Tudor heralds".)

Discussion here: http://soc.genealogy.medieval.narkive.com/HlXtdFZl/eva-grey-wife-of...

Private User
4/21/2015 at 6:34 PM

Except, the isolated Eve has had her "About" filled with other Eves who did not match her birth and death dates - so I deleted the dates. Do with her as you please, but she can NOT now be the niece of Walter the Archbishop.

Walter the Archbishop is associated with at least *three* Eve de Greys: a(n attributed) sister Eve who (is said to have) married a William Brito (not the clergyman), a cousin Eve from whom he bought Rotherfield (which he promptly gave to his brother Robert), and his niece Eve, whose father is uncertain but has sometimes tentatively been said to be that same Robert. (I think Walter probably came from a LARGE family.)

Private User
4/21/2015 at 6:58 PM

Eve de Grey is probably the "attributed sister".

Eva de Redvers is her Grandma (and maybe Walter the Archbishop's).

Unknown Profile appears to be Walter the Archbishop's (very junior) aunt.

Eva Beauchamp de Grey is probably the "cousin Eve" from whom Walter the Archbishop bought Rotherfield Greys.

Unknown Profile is now *trashed* with Disinformation in her "About" that means she CANNOT be the Archbishop's niece.

It is somewhat obvious that this part of the tree is in a terrible mess and will require a lot of work.

Private User
4/21/2015 at 6:59 PM

Any questions about *why* it is a bad idea to merge rashly without careful research?

Linda Wellman
4/21/2015 at 7:29 PM

And, Eve de Beauchamp's daughter, Margaret m. Jollan de Neville (c-other discussion, already in progress).

Private User
4/21/2015 at 7:38 PM

Yeah, I spotted that.

Eve de Beauchamp =/= Eve de Murdac =/= Eve the Archbishop's niece.

Private User
4/22/2015 at 6:23 AM

Or at least Eve de Beauchamp =/= Eve the Archbishop's niece.

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