http://www.geni.com/people/Hendrik-Venter/6000000002522856008

Started by Daan Botes on Monday, March 16, 2015
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Related Projects:

Showing 1-30 of 32 posts

Lively discussion took place in Genesis on the origins of Hendrik (Heinrich) Venter whether he was from Hamel, France or Hamel(i)n, Germany. For further information see:
http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000032200292164 and
http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000032200292167

Thanks Daan Botes. So interesting.

Kobus Venter's conclusion in the last paragraph suggests:
Ons moet op hierdie stadium die
standpunt handhaaf dat daar ‘n oorwig van konkrete
bewyse bestaan dat Hamel/Hameln/Hamelen/
Hamelin in Duitsland, Hendrik Venter se stad van
herkoms was. Totdat die teendeel deur onomstootlike
primêre dokumentêre bewyse gestaaf word, moet daar
aanvaar word dat Hendrik Venter afkomstig is van
Hamel/ Hameln, Duitsland.

Discussion link has been posted or do you mean Kobus Venter's suggestion?

The link is to the Venter Family project

:-( If all else fail - read!

lol

I have added the 2 documents to the Venter project...

Thanks Don.
I know Piet Retief Venter has a point of view he wants to add as well.

Hi Sharon! Please upload the article of Christo Venter that I attached to my e-mail of yesterday. It will afford the followers of this discussion a new perspective on the matter. If I find the time I will try to formulate a piece on my own present insights re this matter. After all, we are in search of the truth insofar as it can be discerned, given the lack of corroboratory documentary evidence in any of several 'possible' places. To a large extent we have to rely on circumstantial evidence re the true place of origin of Hendrik Venter, SV / PROG. We are dealing with what was recorded about this in the old registers at the Cape, and those registers merely state that Hendrik Venter was from Hamel. (On his say-so, I might add!).(Furthermore it is relevant to say that 'hamel' is old French for 'hamlet', and if a guy did not really want to disclose where he really came from, what could be easier than to say that you came from 'Hamel'). The problem is that there are quite a few places in Europe by that name (Hamel), and the 'easy way out' in the past was to say that it must have been a reference to Hamelin in Germany. As 'luck' would have it a boy by the name of Heinrich von Dempter was baptized in Hamelin in 1663, more or less in the year when Hendrik Venter was born, but there is no proof that Heinrich von Dempter was the same person as Hendrik Venter. 'Von Dempter' was apparently a 'germanification' of 'Van Deventer', but Y-DNA tests have shown that male SA Venters belong to the R1a1 Y-DNA haplogroup, while the only Van Deventer whose Y-DNA has been tested, that I know of, belongs to the R1b1 haplogroup. This shows that SA Venters are not related to Van Deventers, and certainly that 'Venter' is not some abbreviation of 'Van Deventer' as people were inclined to reason. If we want to get closer to the truth we will have to keep open minds and do a lot more research, followed by cogent reasoning, in order to come to the right conclusions. That is the scientific method!

Very interesting, Piet. Do the Genesis articles look at DNA too? I have to get your article and cut and paste it into the project. Will do, when I have a chance, unless you or someone else beat me to it.

Thanks, Sharon! I don't think that any recent Genesis articles look at DNA. (I wrote a bit about it some years ago for Genesis, but I'm not following Genesis anymore). As far as I know I'm the first and only person thus far who has made use of this 'tool' in genealogical research. When you say that you have to get my article, are you referring to the article I wrote for FAMILIA in 2009 - the 'FAABS' article? I notice that the Hendrik Venter profile page now has a reference to that article in FAMILIA, and I reckon that should suffice. I have to say that I would write the last part of that article differently if I should be writing it today - this is due to new research and better insights into the matter. Regarding the possible posting of Christo Venter's draft article in reply to Kobus Venter's articles in FAMILIA and Genesis I want to say that you shouldn't go ahead with that, as I have requested. There is a distinct possibility that Christo's article might be published by FAMILIA and one wouldn't want to spoil the chances of this happening because of prior publication in some other medium, e.g. here on Geni. Thanks again, dear Cuzz!

Okay good - I won't. When it is published, don't forget that we must put a link to it on the project as well.
This kind of historical research is so interesting. One of the 'funnest' aspects of being a part of the online World Tree for me.
So many points of view can be accessed; resourced and debated next to one another so quickly. There's nothing like it.
Go team!! :-)

Please also have a look at this discussion. Frederik Venter

Hallo Charmaine Carstens, my '7th cousin'! Ek sal kyk na die bespreking by Frederik Venter, b10

Ek kry maar net op sy profielblad 'n aanduiding dat hy blykbaar as baba oorlede is in 1711. Waaroor gaan die bespreking, en kan jy my dalk 'n skakel gee?

Hier is 'n skakel - http://www.geni.com/discussions/145984
Dit was gelukkig nie 'n fout nie - die probleem is opgelos met versigtige kyk na die name en vanne (in daardie dae) van die betrokke individue.

Dankie, Johann Ahlers. Nou verstaan ek waaroor dit gaan. Ek is bly die probleem is opgelos!

Dagse Piet Retief Venter , ja tussen Daan Botes en Johann Ahlers het hulle sommer gou die probleem uitgestryk. Hierdie is 'n goeie voorbeeld van as mens nie seker is wat die regte stappe is om te neem nie om dan liewer nie net voort te ploeter en foute te maak nie. Roep liewer die hulp in van mense wat meer ondervinding het en wag en kyk hoe al die kreukels uitgestryk word. Dankie julle twee.

Dankie vir jou boodskap, liewe Nig Charmaine! Van my kant af ook 'n Groot Dankie aan Daan, Johann, e.a., vir wat julle hier op Geni vir ons Venter-familie doen! (Ek is nuuskierig om te sien hoe ekself en 'n paar van ons kollaborateurs aan mekaar verwant is!). Hier op Geni word my volle name maar net deur 'die stelsel' gebruik om my van ander Piet Venters te onderskei - ek is gewoonweg maar net 'plain' Piet V! :-)

OK, hier is dit: Johann Ahlers is 'my 5th cousin once removed'; Donovan Paul Penaluna is 'my 6th cousin once removed'. en Daan Botes is 'my 6th cousin once removed'. Hallo, Neefs! :-) Ek gaan 'n bietjie oor julle in die volgende VenterBlog skryf! Baie interessant!

And Sharon Doubell is my 6th cousin twice removed. This is via the Du Plessis connections of both of us. Sy het ook aan my gemeld sy is ook 'aangetroud', via haar 'great aunt', verwant aan die Venters! The Venter Family / Venter Clan! :-)

Geni is korrek wanneer dit vir ons vetel dat ons almal neefs is,hey cuzzin Piet? ;-)

Yep, Sharon, but you are close relatives - almost as good as it gets! Privileged to be related to all of you!

:-)

Not sure who put this on the About - but I'm happy to adjust accordingly:

Many people assume that another name for Hendrik was Heinrich Conradt von Dempter, from Hameln, Germany. However, he has never used the name "Conrad" (or Heinrich) and none of his children ever used the name and surname, or named their children accordingly. There is also no record in the Cape Archives and the Archives in Den Haag that he came from Hameln, or that he was originally known as von Dempter. There are, however, several records that he came from Hamel. Nobody can even prove that Hendrik and Heinrich was the same person.

Therefore, we don't know when Hendrik was born (probably the mid 1600's) or who his parents were. (Not yet, anyway) From Hendrik's behaviour in the Cape we can derive that he was from Hamel, France, and this is supported by the Cape Archive entries, his marriage to a French woman, the fact that he settled amongst the French, his doctor was French, his son, Pieter, married a French woman etc. etc. - See later for references.

The progenitor of South African Venters and the person we know as Hendrik Venter, probably arrived in the Cape on 12 October 1679. This date can be calculated since the ships arriving at the Cape have been recorded, including the number of people (slaves, soldiers, passengers etc.) and the ship logbooks, general ledger, journals etc. We know for sure that Hendrik was in the Cape by 1682 already (and a free citizen). We have at least two records proving this. (ARA VOC 4018 Cassaboek of 1682 and tax returns J183 of 1692) We know that VOC staff (soldiers) had to work for three years to become "free" and therefore Hendrik would have had to join the VOC late 1678, early 1679. Therefore, if the entries and dates in the archives are correct, then Hendrik could only have arrived in the Cape on the "Vrije Zee". - Vrije Zee: General Ledger and journal, 1679 (1679 Part I/I.2.b.4) Scheepssoldijboeken (5219) and journal maintained on the ship Vrije Zee 1677 – 1678 Part I/I.1.o Scheepsjournalen (5057).

Notably, the surname "Venter" was sometimes referred to as "Venters" (See Anna's estate distribution) or "Fenter" (KAB MOOC8/52.46b dated 11 September 1797, referring to Jan Adriaan Fenter. Recorded in the Inventories of the Orphan Chamber, Cape Town Archives Repository, South Africa).

http://www.venter.co/venter/HendrikVenter.htm

Hendrik was from Hamel in France..... (and his name was NOT originally Hendrik!):

Hendrik Venter v. Hamel, burger en kleremaker op Stellenbosch, 1704 eienaar v.d. plaas "Vleeschbank", a.d. Bergrivier, † 2.5.1713. x 17.7.1690 Johanna Mostert; xx 9.12.1691 Anna Viljoen, † 11.5.1713.
__________

Let's get a few facts straight:

He was only ever known as 'Hendrik Venter' at the Cape (not a shred of evidence has yet emerged that he was 'Heinrich' and a second name was NEVER used in any documentation.
The ONLY evidence we have of his handwriting or 'signature' was on the contract to buy the farm Nazaret north of Stellenbosch - and he made a cross (and an administrator, or he himself, added the letters 'HF' to it). At best this may indicate that his surname may have been spelt with an 'F' at the time.
He is NOT a descendant of Heinrich von Dempter and Anna Kuhleman.
Documentation at the Cape only ever records 'Hamel' as his place of birth / origin - no country ever recorded!? It is thus not yet clear (neither has it been proven by anyone) that he was from Hameln, Germany or Hamel, France (or any other similar sounding place, for that matter.)
He did NOT own or bear a coat of arms (the coat of arms of 'South African families' is a very unfortunate legacy of the book by Dr Pama)
For most recent / current views on where the Venters hail from, see:

http://www.venter.co/venter/HendrikVenter.htm

http://www.christo.co.za/christo/History.htm

Psa also read Article by Piet Retief Venter: "Feite, Afleidings, Aannames en Bespiegelings oor 'n Suid-Afrikaanse Stamvader - Hendrik Venter", in FAMILIA 46 (3) 2009, pp. 132-146.

===

He is NOT a descendant of Heinrich von Dempter and Anna Kuhleman.

The information below (probably from SAGenealogies) has not yet been proven to be correct in terms of the descendancy of Hendrik Venter / neither has the assumption of the name 'Heinrich' been proven: Hendrik (Heinrich) Venter * Dempterhaus, Hamelin, Duitsland 21.4.1663, kleremaker op Stellenbosch en later landbouer op die plaas Vleesbank (Vleeschbank of Vlijsbank) aan die oewer v.d. Bergrivier naby die huidige Wellington † “Vleeschbank”, dist. Riebeeck Kasteel voor 18.4.1713 (MOOC 8/2.78) s.v. Heinrich von Dempter en Anna Sophia Kuhleman x Kaapstad 17.7.1690 Johanna MOSTERT ≈ 10.3.1675 d.v. Johannes Cornelius Mostert en Alida van Hulst xx Kaapstad 9.12.1691 Anna VILJOEN d.v. Francois Viljoen en Cornelia Campenaar ≈ Kaapstad 19.5.1678 † 11.5.1713

b1 kind * c. 1690

Tweede huwelik

b2 Bonifacius ≈ Stellenbosch 1.12.1692

b3 Francois ≈ Stellenbosch 10.10.1694

b4 Anna Sabina * c. 1695/8 † voor 14.6.1713 (MOOC 8/3.11) x 4.10.1712 Gysbert VERSSCHUUR

b5 Pieter ≈ Stellenbosch 18.10.1699 † c. 1765 x Kaapstad 30.11.1721 Hester NEL ≈ 1.8.1706 † c. 1785 d.v. Guillaume Neel en Jeanne la Batte

b6 Cornelia ≈ Stellenbosch 15.10.1701 x Drakenstein 14.2.1717 Willem VAN STADEN xx Stellenbosch 25.3.1742 Carel Titus JUST

b7 Maria ≈ Stellenbosch 3.8.1704 x 21.5.1724 Pieter Matthys DE VRIES xx Jan Frederik HARTOGH xxx Johannes RIECKE

b8 Jan Hendrik ≈ Stellenbosch 7.11.1706

b9 Jan Hendrik ≈ Stellenbosch 17.11.1709

b10 Frederik ≈ Stellenbosch 25.10.1711

Variants first name: Hendrik / Heinrich

(Note: Hendrik recorded on documents and not Heinrich)

Variants second name: Coenraad / Conrad

How is this?

Hendrik Venter/Fenter v. Hameln (country debatable) † 2.5.1713

Parents NOT KNOWN

x 17.7.1690 Johanna Mostert

x 9.12.1691 Anna Viljoen, † 11.5.1713.

Haplogroup R1a1a1b1a1. (SNP R-M458)

Daan Botes check that you're happy. It's appearing in my merge centre as a conflict - hence putting the guiding CN on the top to help me next time it appears.

Should we disconnect parents without evidence?

Showing 1-30 of 32 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion