Living descendants of Edward IV?

Thank You Ms. Erica: Yes we are talking about the Earl of Leister and we just found my mother is a down line cousin of the Earle's son...Via Chalfant.

If I on the otherhand am a descendant of the Good Earl we have nothing but up line Suttons to compare to. That's why adjusting the 1 or single step alleles which seperate the Sutton line from Rice is appropriate....there is a 1,000 year gap in the Sutton progenitor and when you deduct 9 single steps from my 1948 results you GET 5/67 markers in agreement....That means to me that I am part of the Sutton group....

Since I now have to show you how little difference there is abouve 67 markers I will do so. I have always been a person of my Word...we are coming to the end here and I believe when we adjust for a 1,000 years of single step drift....the numbers are in the same RANGE JUSTIN: You are comparing Apple to Orange because I am the only person to claim the Upline connection and all the down line Suttons that would match Sir Robert Dudley are dead..... The Base is composed of living tested person, incomplete as it is....So you rule me out when I should be ruled in.

I did not state that correctly: you get 62/67 markers in agreement which rules me in as a Sutton.

Dale, that whole message is nonsense.

1. There is no such thing as adjusting for anything. You count the number of differences and compare them to a chart.

2. There is no difference between comparing an "upline" connection and a "downline" connection.

3. The only thing being compared is your genetic distance from modern men who claim the same paternal ancestors. Either you are close enough that you might belong to the same family, or you aren't. (You aren't.)

4. It is irrelevant that you are the only person claiming descent from Sir Robert Dudley. He belonged to the famous Sutton-Dudley family. Their genealogy is well-documented and their DNA has been established by triangulation. Your DNA shows that your common ancestor with them lived thousands of years ago.

5. You could claim that Sir Robert Dudley was not really a member of the Sutton-Dudley family because of an NPE in his ancestry, but then it would be pointless to look for your matches to them. If you did find a match to a Sutton or Dudley family, it would not be a match to them. And, you could never prove it was a match to Sir Robert because his line is extinct.

Dale, a word of warning.

Geni has already cautioned you that you should not continue pushing an agenda that genealogists will not accept.

If you continue, I will begin reporting your messages as inappropriate and you will likely be suspended.

i do not Think there is descendants of Edward still lives, no

I will suspend my contribution on this thread as it is Pointless trying to communicate an idea I am ill equipped to propose. I will advise when the 101 test comes back. DCR 1948 all done here.

Dale, your message above shows you still don't understand how to construct a DNA proof. It's not a threat, nor is it bullying, to say that you should not keep insisting you are right and everyone else is wrong when you don't understand the basic concepts.

Here's one way to see it.

If you are planning a trip from Boston to Washington DC, it's 400 miles. Most people would stop there.You are taking several additional steps:

1. You think it is really only 200 miles, because once you reach New York City you've started the trip.

2. Then you argue that kilometers are just as good a measure as miles, so it you drive 100 kilometers an hour, you'll be in Washington in 2 hours.

3. So, anyone who tells you it will take 8 hours to get from Boston to Washington is lying to you because you've done your own calculations and you know it will only take 2 hours.

Justin: You keep trying to tell me Im not related to a Sutton....fine. But at some point we were. Now we have to find which testee of the Suttons I am most close to. No more you don't belong here....I do belong here. The 101 test should yield a 90% likely match at 12 or less markers. You say drift is accounted for and I don't believe that since the match only occurs when one looks....like Shrodinger's CAT....It's both alive and Dead until you look. Well we look upline at Sutton and they are the Branch that connects to my Mother's Cousins in Chalfant and they connect to My Uncle as well....I did not say the eveidence was proved, I said we have markers enough to keep looking. That's my last word here, I promise.

Dale, it's not off topic to ask questions if you don't understand something. Your participation is only off topic if you continue to insist that you can use something that has been disproved to construct a valid proof.

For example, you believe that at some point your family was related to the famous Sutton family. You say your family tradition says so. Fine, but the DNA evidence shows otherwise. Therefore, off topic as soon as that has been explained to you. Your mother's line is irrelevant, and you are wrong in thinking that you will have fewer differences on the 111-marker test than you already have on the 67-marker test.

A match is not at all like Schroedinger's Cat. The match is there or it isn't there, whether you look for it or not. This is biology, not physics.

What is on-topic is your question about which Sutton you are closest to.

That's a somewhat complicated answer because there are two parts to it.

First, the answer you are probably expecting is that your closest Sutton match (as far I've found and as far as you've reported) is with the descendants of Robert Sutton, of North Meols (Lancashire). He's on Geni here:

Robert Sutton

You have 11 differences from him on your 67-marker test -- right at the edge of probability that you are related to him through an ancestor who lived about the time surnames were adopted, say 1200.

It's easy to find more info on this line. If I get time, I'll add a bit to Geni.

Secondly, though, the number of differences can never mean anything if you are in a different subgroup of Haplogroup I1. The Cullen predictor says there is a 92 percent chance he belongs to the AS1 subgroup and a 6 percent chance he belongs to the AS1H subgroup. But, the Cullen predictor says there 0 percent chance that you belong to that subgroup.

If you remember, the Cullen predictor says for you:

ML 58%
1313 26%
AS2 12%
ASgen 1%
AS3 1%
AS6 1%

So, that changes the answer. Robert Sutton is not your closest match because he belongs to a different collateral branch of the I1 tree that diverged from your line more than 1000 years ago. He's not a match for you.

So, we move down the list to William Sutton. You and he have 14 differences on 67 markers. The Cullen predictor shows a 97 percent chance that he belongs to the AS1 subgroup (same as Robert) and a 3 percent chance he belongs to AS8. No match to you there, either. He also belongs to a different collateral branch of the I1 tree that diverged from your line more than 1000 years ago.

So, I keep working down the list of Dudleys and Suttons and Perrotts. There aren't any who might belong to one of the same subgroups you might belong to.

So, the final answer is that there is not a Sutton line (or Dudley line or Perrott line) that you are closest to. Your common ancestor with all of them lived more than 1000 years ago, and most of them more likely in the period 1500 to 2000 years ago.

This is why ordering a test for PF49 would have been a better deal for your money than ordering an upgrade to 111 markers. It's also why it would have been better to join the I1 project before throwing away any more money on tests that won't answer your specific questions.

Which line does Cosumo DUDLEY my 8th cousin 6X removed belong to on the Sutton Scale? He's named by my father along with Alice Leigh as being in our family....I didn't understand until now how. Both sides of my family are now ensconced by the Dudley name at Sir Robert father of John Perratt II 1565 and unknown female, as well as the Maternal line seen here for the first time. Justin: Is this family group 1 of Sutton or 2?

http://www.geni.com/path/Cosmo-Dudley+is+related+to+Mildred-Rice-Wa...

Dale - Cosimo Dudley had no children.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1998-08/...

6.Cosimo Dudley born July 1610

https://books.google.com/books?id=9CowAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA138&ot...

Life of Sir Robert Dudley, Earl of Warwick and Duke of Northumberland
 By John Temple Leader, page 138

And now as to the fates of this large progeny.

Cosimo Dudley 2 was indeed a most promising young man, trained from his youth to courtly service, a great favourite with the Grand-Duke, who made him Colonel of his guard, while he was yet very young. He died in 1631, as we have said, at Piombino, cut off in the opening of a fine career.

2 The entry of Cosimo's baptism deserves to be here inserted, precisely as it was copied from the Registry.

"1610 Domen. Add\ 18 Luglio. Cosimo del Sign. Conte Ruberto Dudaleo, et delta Sig. Contessa Lisabetta Dudora di Barliche p: Sto Pagolo n. addl 16 N: 1. b. Addl 18. C. il serenissimo Gra Duca Cosimo secodo Gra Duca di Toscana et p. S. A. S. illmo Sig. Silvio Piccolomini d'Aragona."

Observe the fantastic spelling of the names, observe also that the god-father was the Grand-Duke, represented by a very noble Italian.

Cosimo Dudley is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 13th cousin 12 times removed!

http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Cosimo-Dudley...

Cosimo Dudley is Edward IV of England's first cousin 6 times removed!

http://www.geni.com/path/Edward-IV-of-England+is+related+to+Cosimo-...

Edward IV of England is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 10th cousin 13 times removed!

http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Edward-IV-of-...

I'm hoping someone will upload his portrait to his profile (I havent found it yet). Apparently his untimely death broke his father's heart, and the next son Carlo was a "bad seed."

If he's a SCOUNDREL, he's most likely my father's description of Perrott ap RICE. LOL I'll see what I can find.

fyi: The Robert Sutton1636 on Family Tree is distantly related to the Royal Suttons, same Leiceister address but not ROYAL. The Point being that though distant and non-Royal the Sutton backdrop is important to this search....obviously we now understand why no current DNA matches me....they are all presumed extinct. For Now I'll accept Distant outlaw of SUTTON: and blood relative of Henry Carey and Sir Robert Dudley to my Mother.

The ancestry of Robert Sutton of North Meols is unknown. If it likely he was a son or other close relative of William.

On the surface, it looks like the North Meols family could be related to the famous Sutton-Dudleys but there is no paper trail and the DNA shows they aren't really related.

Could be an ancestor who adopted the name Sutton from his mother's family, or could be a descendant with an NPE.

More likely, it's just a different family. The earliest Sutton at North Meols is Thomas de Sutton in 1311. He probably took his surname from the nearby Sutton manor, and was not all related to the famous Sutton-Dudleys, who took their name from a different Sutton manor -- Sutton-on-Trent, Nottinghamshire.

Anyone Know this TUDER? I had read that Tudor/Tuder/ Blounts were all cousins....and Chalfant's certainly look to be connected by this Geni relationship....Provisionally it's just an interesting way to spell the name.
http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Sir-Richard-Bail...

I can't see any direct connection between the name Tudor to Tuder,
Tudor is from the greek name Theodor, meaning gods gift I think,
I have a friend, greek, named Theo and once he said what his name
meant, so if his right the name Tudor must end with or, otherwise
it doesn't make any sense. At the other hand, Swede as I am,
Tjuder in our language is what we bound animals like cows and
oxen with, if someone had that as an occupation, and he lived in
a part influenced by the Scandinavians, he could very well be named
after his occupation and thus passing that name on. I do not think
there could be any other explanations to just that name or else that
it is just something invented out of nonsense?

About some naming traditions...
In sweden there are some people named Brems, it's a tool to calm down horses with, one of many possible explanations...
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brems

Some people made barrels, they sometimes took the name Böcker, or Bödker, that would maybe correspond to "coppers" in english?
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnbindare

Theodor-
Tudor-
dej avgudar-
dej gillar..

You have a word, toddler, where "tod" means something small,
in some logical sense it goes to parts, as in tot up, adding
or sum up something, if someone had some form of task
doing this 900 years ago in England, then maybe, he could be
called a tuder?
In swedish, tod, is tott, it's the outermost part of the thumb. ; )

Hej Johnny!

http://wordsmith.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1...
"Do you know where the word 'toddler' comes from?"

"Tudor is from the greek name Theodor, meaning gods gift I think"

Actually, that may not be correct. There is also the Gothic name Theodoric ("Ruler of the People"), made immortal by Theodoric I of the Ostrogoths, who helped turn back Attila the Hun in 451 AD, and was killed doing it.

A later Theoderic, "The Great" (454 – August 30, 526), ruled Italy and nearby territories after the end of the Western Roman Empire. He is remembered in German legend as Dietrich von Bern [of Verona], and in Icelandic sagas as Thidrek - but both sets of stories show clear evidence of confusion with the earlier Theodoric.

One account of Owain ap Maredudd's choosing the name "Tewdwr" rather than "Meredith" as a permanent surname makes it explicit that he believed the name to be a form of Theodoric, not Theodore.

There were quite a few of these Welsh names that came from Latin. Tudor from Theodore is one. Owain or Owen from Eugenius is thought to be another.

There are many Welsh families with the surname Tudor. The only think they have in common is that they are descended from different men with that given name.

This "Sir Richard Tuder Bailey" is an obvious fake. Neither the Welsh not the English used middle names until the 17th century. This guy lived in the 14th century, but his father and 3 generations of his descendants all have classic Victorian names.

Ulf, you are right about barrel makers. That's the origin of our English surname Cooper.

Theodoric "the Great," King of the Ostrogoths is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 39th great grandfather!

http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Theodoric-the...

Cooper = Familly name is France of Tonnlier. Sounds right. So Tudor/cooper? Dunno. Just an aside as I hunt for the Sutton link to Rice.

Same here Ulf. Theodoric "the Great," King of the Ostrogoths is Arthur Wilkings Newkirk III's 39th great grandfather!

http://www.geni.com/path/Arthur-Wilkings-Newkirk-III+is+related+to+...

Maven and I cross posted above. I should clarify -- I don't disagree that Owain ap Maredudd chose Tudor as his surname rather than Meredith because he believed it was a form of Theodoric.

The point where I disagree is that I think it originated in Wales as a form of Theodore.

Here's an anecdote about Henry VII inquiring about the origin of his family:

https://books.google.com/books?id=8SZPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA307&lpg...