Appropriate symbols for the shoah (holocaust)

I was very touched reading your deeply upsetting summary of recent events. It is with trepidation that I am responding, being unfamiliar with your family and the the Dutch tree.

Without a doubt there was a misunderstanding about your most honorable and moving intentions.You are absolutely right, this is an intensely painful issue for many members. In addition the symbol in question, the yellow star Jude, has degrading connotations profoundly disturbing and upsetting to survivors and their families.

In fact, years ago we had discussions what images would be suitable for members to honor family murdered in the Holocaust. Below are links to examples. Yad Vashem one was considered very appropriate. Do you think the Yad Vashem image would work for you?

1.Exterminated in Holocaust

2. Murdered in Holocaust Yahrzeit 1

3. Exterminated in Auschwitz Holocaust

It seems as if somehow communications between all parties you were in contact with was either misunderstood, or not timely enough, and thus the situation quickly spiraled out of control, and hence the editing suspension.

Please accept deep apologies for the distress and frustration this complicated situation caused.

Malka - thank you so very much for your thoughtful and considerate words. While I was not trying to cause anyone any distress - it is the very nature of the image that - for me - has the power. You are absolutely correct that at the time my people were forced to wear this symbol, they were degraded and treated with unspeakable horrors. But, it is that very horror that empowers this symbol to speak to generations now and into the future - that we can never - that we must never forget.

All of the images you offered are "nice" - but they have all been sanitized; they are all POLITICALLY CORRECT.

Memory needs its "rawness" - it needs the glare of the brightest possible light shinning on it so that NO ONE can possibly miss it.

As I mentioned I have served in combat and I have seen, first hand, the greatest of the tragedies of war; it is the suffering of the innocent. But it is that very suffering - that, in modern terms - the "collateral damage" that brings parties to the peace table. If the only thing that happens is the death and destruction of those who fight, then the fighting will NEVER stop because there is and always will be someone to pick up the fight.

I will be glad to respect the rights of others - but I think in return, I have EVERY RIGHT to then demand the respect of my rights.

What is MOST CHILLING for me in this discussion is the censorship that I am (have been) enduring, when NOT a single person has had the courtesy to address me directly.

I just checked - and it appears my editing status has been returned. THANKS to whomever is responsible for this return.

Again, I will be MOST happy to communicate in whatever fashion is desired with ANYONE about this issue. PLEASE, PLEASE contact me ...

One last, VERY IMPORTANT point. The 2 different images I have used I did not just happen to find. BOTH images came from profiles on the MyHeritage site, which I believe is our parent company.

Interesting to say the least .....

RGS

A possibly tangential issue - I find it very upsetting that a Curator would advise one that one "should always contact the manager of a profile 1st before adding an image to a profile"
1) From comments in Public Discussions, it was my understanding that Geni has repeatedly toyed with the idea of eliminating Managers.
2)It is my understanding - If an unclaimed Profile is within your Max Extended Family, you have as much right to edit it as the manager.
3)It is my understanding - If it is a Public Profile, whether related or not, everyone on the World Tree has equal rights to edit any of the unlocked Fields. [one of the reasons I keep my closer deceased relatives Private]
4) The "Terms of Service", which are our only "Rules of Conduct" that I am aware of, makes no mention of managers of Profiles [the only instance of the word "manager" in Terms of Conduct -- "You agree to indemnify and hold Geni, its subsidiaries, agents, licensors, managers, and affiliates, ...." ]

On the other hand - reading the Terms of Service makes one wonder why any of us risk posting here given its statement that

"Geni reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to reject, block, refuse to post or remove any Content or other posting (including private messages) by you, or to restrict, suspend, or terminate this Agreement or your access to all or any part of the Geni Services at any time, for any or no reason, with or without prior notice, and without liability."

Rick, I have sent you a PM.

Pam - I appreciate your thoughtfulness in thinking that a PM (private message) may be more "appropriate." And as I responded to you - I will respond some time this weekend.

However - I believe it is important ENOUGH that all available information be shared with the ENTIRE GENI community.

Dear Rick,

not so much about who you are or what you think in so many words, but the message you have sent across with the David star, with the word 'Jude' on it, is shocking to me and most likely to others.

It's not so much about me, who am I? But the symbol you have used was introduced by the Nazis to mark the Jews in society.
You have done no different than that. You have marked the same holocaust victims on geni. Geni is some sort of society. A global one, so to say.

These seem all harsh words but I have never doubted your good intend. I see your thought behind it. "Never forget" is the messsage you wanted to get across. But in my opinion you have choosen the wrong symbol for that.

Anyway, I think it is wise of you that you made this into a public discussion. Well done :)

Dimitri's insightful response so eloquently sums up the heart of the issues involved.

Richard (Rick) Gary Simon You might find the heartfelt deeply visceral responses in this 2011discussion on this same excruciatingly complicated topic helpful.

http://www.geni.com/discussions/77491

Dimitri & Malka - Thanks you for your very thoughtful comments. I am reviewing both of your comments as well as the links provided. I am taking some time to study and process. I will respond here in a couple of days.

I SINCERELY hope others will join this conversation. There are NO right answers AND there are NO wrong answers - but there are very important opinions AND feelings out there that hope others will share,

RGS

Hi Malka, Hi Rick

thanks for the link about the discussion, and I think I share your opnion, Malka, about using the Yad Vashem symbol including the words Yad Vashem as an alternative for a profile picture for the holocaust victims.

I snatched the logo from their website and transformed it into a suitable profile picture and used it on a profile a personally added to the world tree, namely my uncle:
Dolf Gazan#

Not sure wether a shall use this pic on other profiles I manage. Maybe some other 'better' suggestions will appear later on while this discussion lasts.

And Rick, I am so glad that I didn't offend you in any way. And indeed there are no wrongs and rights. What we all share is the same message: Never forget. And how do we get this message across best.

What strikes me the most, is what I saw in a new short film, directed by Steven Spielberg. The message about what happend then, is still hapening today, across the globe.
I think that is the hurtfull truth behind the statement "Never forget"

Anyway, to end on a more lighter note. Enjoy your weekend you all!

best regards,
Dimirti

I'm sorry - but the proper word is - - y'al :)

You can read my feelings and opinion on the link that Malka provided. To reiterate, I feel very strongly that it is up to the close family to decide what, if any image, they want for their loved one murdered in the Holocaust.

We differ it what we find acceptable or unthinkable in terms of images.

My own personal reaction to the the yellow Mogen Dovid (Star of David) on a black background with the word "Jude" written across the face" is a negative one. For me it connotes anti-Semitism, the Nazi regime, the annihilation of most of Europe's Jewish population -- men, women, children, old people. It hurts me to see it. And the closest relatives I lost in the Holocaust were cousins of my grandmothers, great aunts / uncles of my husband. Imagine how those who lost beloved family members they grew up with feel?

I was always convinced you had nothing but good intentions. Just like the other ones on Geni that are using the very same image to identify those who died in the Holocaust.
BUT, I am somewhat surprised you never saw it coming.
That it never occurred to you that choosing the archetypal star of David with Jude written on it, THE symbol that is considered by most people as humiliating in the context of the Sjoa, that singled out Jews from the rest of humanity, would be controversial, to say the least.
(Let's not forget there were also Roma/Sinti, homosexuals and others
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Bundesarchiv_Bil..., but, as far as I know, they were not forced to wear these badges in public)

I'd also like to remark that German Jews were also forced to add Sara and Israel to their names. IMO to reproduce it here would also be inappropiate.

I believe that, when we add a picture to a profile, the best we can do is to think of what the human behind the profile would have expected from us In the case we have pictures or paintings, there is no issue: usually the person made a voluntary decision to have his picture taken or painting drawn. In the case of Rembrandt, it's obvious that he would like us to use one of his self-portraits. In the absence of that, a coat of arms is a good alternative. Or, an image of a tombstone or an epitaph make a lot of sense.
I think the issue here is about the use of symbols. We often use the Mayflower image for a Mayflower immigrant to the Americas. I suspect those immigrants would well understand why we would use such a picture - in the absence of better.
So, when thinking of the victims of the Holocaust, I seriously doubt that they would like symbols discussed above to be on their profile. I rather think they'd wish to be seen with their faces, in a loving and remembering way. If we don't have their pictures, I think Malka's suggestion about Yad Vashem makes a lot of sense, as it is probably the best we can get in the absence of a tombstone, sadly enough.
I don't think that it is 'politically correct' to giving peace through a profile picture. I think it just makes sense.
Again, let's think of what the deceased may have wanted. I don't think they would want to keep wearing a Jude star. In my honest opinion.

For anyone who is interested in using the profile picture I have created of Yad Vashem, please visit the folowing link for saving it onto your own device:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TEPJwQXjBKxiIk1HX9rZLs7YnYi5Pqf...

Thanks to all for these opinions and here is mine.

I have been upset of the image with the yellow star and the text Jew on. My thoughts are "never again". And now kind of we are "here again" in the world.

We are not aloud to ever forget the Holocaust but is it appropiate to use the nazi's signs? In Sweden it's confusing to see, hear and read what is political correct at this time and how media handle the, what I see, as an ongoing very confused kontext. E. g. I had to write to my newpaper to tell that four of the victims in Paris actually was chosen and murdered only because they were jewish. The swedish national television suddenly hade to send from the state funerals in Paris of the (muslim) polismen and the communistic funerals of the journalists. They suddenly had to report about the murders in the kosher-shop and from Jerusalem. The four victims did not wear a nazi-jewsign. They was killed eventhough. Only because they were jewish.

But that was absolutely not the only thing they were. So how to remember them? I have discussed this several times with others and my opinion is: We have to remember them as persons. Humans with more or less skill, younger or older, with a background and a future. That's what we can do within the geneaological frames. To anyone. I never ever write what confession anyone have. It's enough to read the place of death. But of course it's not always enough. Look at who was on the swedish "Vita bussarna" from Buchenwald. There was only five surviving jewes and they was not aloud to come ombord. It was mostly political survivors from Norway as passengers. I don't think we need or should put that awful nazi-star on anyone here.

There are still a lot of people in the world who wants to categories others. I prefer that people do that themselves. And I belive everyone has the right to chose themselves. How can we ever understand the Holocaust by looking at the remains and the signs if we don't understand a portrait of a person, name, family, place of birth and death, education, work and skills?

Everyone in this discussion is either my direct cousin or a family member.

Most everyone in this discussion is a collaborator.

Rick Simon is a family member and a trusted long-standing collaborator.

That said, before I give my input to this discussion, I will plainly ask the question: Have Geni restored Rick's editing privileges? Thus far the answer to that isn't clear from reading this thread.

a quote from Ricks second post gives the answer to your question, Gary

-...I just checked - and it appears my editing status has been returned. THANKS to whomever is responsible for this return....-

I would say that this issue(depiction of the gruesome, or, instead of a slightly more sanitized version thereof) depends on your desire, or unwillingness, to confront evil. As the Dutch author of "Nacht und Nebel", a report on a concentrationcamp for resistance fighters wrote, on having to watch the prolonged execution of a young Polish boy :all the other inmates averted their eyes, but not I,for I wanted to see the devil."

I am agreeing with George. I am thinking the same way. Great Idea also from Dimitri. It was also good what Ray was mention, because for Jewish people it was humiliating. Sometimes it's good to hear the meaning of others and when I worked in the Police forse my chef was always ending with the words: Use it in your advantage.

I have thought of Rick's tellings above all day. As a "christian" I have to ask myself: How would I like to be remembered if victim of the Holocaust? To be jewish, or christian, is a question of something you don not chose. It's of course a part of my life to be a christian and it's the same to anyone who is born: One is part of a kontext and a social life. To meet others is a problem sometimes about how to understand each other. But some things we have in common. We are humans and we have to respect these differences in context. But I belive that no woman or no man would like to be remebered as a victim of evilness only. In common we e.g. have the parenthood, the love for our children. Each child born is the most beatuiful and perfect child in the world. So even if not becoming a King or president that's what the child is and ought to be remembered for. Even if there is nazi evil or deaseses accidents or anything else evil brougth into the childs life. So even if the child was born right into the nazi evilness and only lived for one day it was not only a victim but a person. An important person and by showing him or her rather as a person than only a victim we can tell the world about him or her. No one can ever forget the situation if we at Geni tells "Died in the holocaust" but only show thats he/she lived only for a short time. We have to differ between the necessity to show the person and the evilness. To put the childs or the grownup only life purpose as a "victim" is not fair. I compare with all the "illegitimate" children who did nothing else but get born and then for the rest of their lives suffered for what the fathers did (or did not do)! It's not my duty as a genealogist to let the children, or the victims of Holocaust, to suffer from what someone else did into the end of world. It's not necessary to tell what victims of the Holocaust that were jews. It would be easier to tell who was not.

In regard to the restoration of Rick's editing privileges, I stand corrected as pointed out by Dimitri. I missed the quote from Rick's second post. Thank you, Dimitri.

I am a Jew of Eastern European (Ashkenazic) and Portuguese Israelite Dutch (Sephardic) heritage. Profiles of my cousins on both sides who were murdered in the Holocaust are entered on Geni.

In 1959, at the age of 6, I learned to read Hebrew from Rabbi Meir Kahane at the Howard Beach Jewish Center in Howard Beach, Queens, New York, USA. I met Arlo Guthrie there, who was taking Bar Mitzvah lessons from Rabbi Kahane at the same time that I was taking my accelerated primary Hebrew lessons.

My father was Secretary of the congregation. Many of the congregation who were friends and cousins of my parents were Displaced Persons (DPs) who had made their way to the USA after being liberated from the concentration camps. Rabbi Kahane's message was too strong for the majority of the Board of Directors, who fired him. My father, who had voted in the minority to retain Rabbi Kahane, resigned from HBJC and moved us to another congregation. Most of the DPs went elsewhere as well.

Rabbi Kahane's message to me, my parents, and the congregation was always "Never Again". This was long before Rabbi Kahane founded the Jewish Defense League in New York City in 1968, where this slogan gained notoriety. Rabbi Kahane's career is easily Googled, so I won't repeat it further. However, I wanted to add my personal experience with a piece of the aftermath of the Shoah, which I believe is relevant to Rick's original intent to associate the noted profiles with a graphical image that depicts the horror of the Shoah.

It's hard for me to come down on the side of which symbol is appropriate. On the side of political correctness, there is a case to be made for use of the Yad Vashem symbol as first related in the 2011 discussion and as recently related per Dimitri Gazan. On the side of direct impact, there is a case to be made for use of the "Judenstern" (Jews' star) as first related in the 2011 discussion and as recently related by Rick.

I'm in contact with my Bar Mitzvah Rabbi (now in Nebraska) and two of my parents' DP friends (from Howard Beach) who are all around 90 years of age. and still going strong as Holocaust lecturers. I wonder what they might have to say about which symbol is appropriate.

If anyone in this discussion is in contact with a DP Holocaust lecturer, the input from them might be valuable as well.

I have NOT weighed back in JUST yet -

I am in the process of trying to encapsulate ALL of the comments made (and continuing to be made) and my thinking as to their validity and value. And then trying to respond without some of the emotion - coherently and in a form and length that is manageable ....

I truly thank all who have or are in the process of adding to this discussion. I encourage ALL to add their voice.

For me this is NOT a vote of a majority or those who do or do not support the position I have taken to this point. For me - it is a discussion of our future as an important voice of the past FOR THE PURPOSE of being an important voice into AND for the future.

Again, I hope to see many, many more commentaTORS in this discussion.

RGS

Richard (Rick) Gary Simon Rick, as a combat veteran you are a fighter at heart, and your immediate visceral reaction with the yellow star was to turn it into a bold battle cry "never to forget", which ironically as Gary points out is how the Jewish Defense League must have seen it, when they transformed the yellow star by striking it through with a powerful fist for their logo and call action.

However, it seems that for many survivors and their families the yellow star only conjures up unspeakable pain, humiliation and horror.

What you seem to be seeking is an image that carries a powerful punch, a call for arms to eradicate evil from the world, ie. as you said "Never Again!". But, perhaps there are feelings so intense and powerful as to transcend the capacity of any image to speak for it.

In order to give you more choices, I have added Dimitri's Yad Vashem image, and a few more possibilities to the Shoah tree for your consideration.

SHOAH TREE: http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000014370723289#600000003...

1. Shoah - Never Again Logo

2. Yad Vashem Logo

3. Never Forget Logo

4. Shoah Bearing Witness Logo

Adam Brown taught me a good lesson, if no photo of the person is available, to use the photo field to show a document/record mentioning the person. For Shoah victims, it is often possible to use a Page of Testimony form Yad Vashem.

One more, NEVER AGAIN!

Randy Schoenberg That is a powerfully relevant document indeed!

Oops...! I did something stupid here. I created a variant of the Yad Vashem logo without asking their permission. Sorry folks. I removed my link from the web.
Sorry again, and thank Rick for pointing it out to me :)

Hate to say it, Malka, but it is still happening today, right now as we speak. Boko Haram, Isil, and I am probably fogetting a couple of examples more, I'm afraid.

The 'Never Again' slogan hasn't worked..

Hi everybody,

I removed the Yad Vashem logo also from my uncles profilephoto space but replaced it for another.

This time I made it completely original with a message included as well that is maybe suitable for use.
I think it combines both, the soft and the hard approach in one message:

Yad Vashem
__________

our past is present

see:
Dolf Gazan#

Dimitri Gazan Excellent option, I hope you do not mind if I added it to the Shoah tree: http://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000014370723289#600000003...

If you look at the JDL Logo in black/white, it almost seems as if
the Yad Vashem Logo is replicated in the lines of the fingers and thumb in the closed fist.

JDL LOGO Holocaust