Is it possible for GENI to hold onto records who have come into disfavor?

On the other, just for balance:

"In 1629, before John Winthrop sailed to co-found Boston, he consulted widely with friends in England, and received a letter from one Robert Rice, a Puritan in East Anglia. Rice wrote, "Cruelty and blood is in our streets, the land aboundeth with murders, slaughters, incest, adulteries, whoredom, drunkenness, oppression, and pride. Even the least of these is enough to make haste out of Babylon." The letter conveys a sense of real urgency, and Winthrop acted accordingly."

http://tennismills.org/babylon.htm

There are possible parents for this Agnes (Rice) Phillips

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=bentc...

William Rice
Birth: 1522 in Boemar,,Buckinghamshire,England
Death: 1588 in Bures St Mary,,Essex,England

With perhaps spurious but romantic parents

Name: Rhys Griffith
Birth: 1500 in Sussex Square,London,Middlesex,England
Death: 1532-01-04 in Beheaded On Tower Hill,London,,England

Name: Catherine Howard
Birth: 1500 in Ashwell,Thorpe,Norfolk,England

This lot we've been through before - not Puritans.

Your Robert Rice of East Anglia is interesting. If he were keen for the purer Utopia, wouldnt he have tried to emigrate himself?

Great article, Justin.

Now, originally, the Pilgrims intended to come, not to Massachusetts, but to settle at the mouth of the Hudson.  Unfortunately, by then the Hudson was in Dutch hands.  An alternative was the St. Lawrence, but that route was under tight French control, where Champlain had founded his Québec colonies.  But the Kennebec, in what is now Maine, was available.  And as Bradford explains, in about 1625 – '26, men from Boston began to make forays up that river.  The area became crucial in 1628, when they founded a satellite trading post at what is now Maine's capital, Augusta, to barter European goods with Native Americans in exchange for beaver pelts.  (And Boston governed Maine for the next 200 years, until 1830.). ....

.... By the late 1620s, when the war with France was going so badly,  fur prices quadrupled in a single year.  And suddenly everything came together.  The Pilgrims had founded their trading posts with Native Americans.  They had gained access to the interior tribes by controlling the rivers, particularly to the north in Maine.  Beaver prices had skyrocketed.  The merchants in Barnstaple were eager to do business with the Pilgrims because trade with France had collapsed.  The Pilgrims desperately needed to pay their debts, which by now were enormous. ...

So, when the investors and merchants in London put two and two together, they turned into hearty supporters of colonization in general.  England's "Long Hesitation" was over.  Within a single generation, America's population surged past 100,000, and the next generation saw that number double again.

New England was going to be a success, after all.

That Agnes was NOT the daughter of William, of Boemer. That's someone's romantic idea. Her parents seem to have been a William and his wife Johane, of Barnstaple. Almost certainly good Puritans. Someone like Dale saw the name William, decided Devon and Buckingham were close enough, and went for the romance.

William, of Boemer was NOT the son of Rhys Griffith. That's from the stupid Rice book we've been fighting all these years. He's the guy who was a servant of Bloody Mary.

This Robert Rice was not the 1630 immigrant. He was an old man at the time he was writing. Childless. Full details in Suffolk Manorial Families and Evidences of the Winthrops of Groton, Co. Suffolk, England, and of Families ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=XPc7AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA104&lpg...

I thought this was a fun connection, by the way, Tenby could very well have been a suitable village name in Sweden, meaning little village, but also with a double meaning to ten, a certain fishing trap made by small branches.

Rhys ap Gruffydd is Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson's 8th great grandson!

http://www.geni.com/path/Ragnar-Lodbrok-Sigurdsson+is+related+to+Rh...

erica it was 1820 not 1830 mind you about my state being part of ma i should know..

If you poke around a bit in the World Connect link you posted, you'll see that this a very questionable source.

It has Agnes Rice born in Barnstaple (Devon) to a father who owned a manor in Buckingham. She marries Christopher Phillips from Devon in Devon, then has three daughters -- Hannah in Sussex, two years later Agnes in Devon, then 5 months later Ann in Lincoln.

Also, comparing different versions across the web it seems that there is a great deal of confusion between a Christopher Phillips (1565) who married Agnes Abram, and their son Christopher Philiips (1589) married Agnes, supposedly Rice.

Ulf, I love little pieces like that.

I have a name like that, although I didn't know it until recently. One of my middle names is Cleve. It really comes from an English family in colonial Virginia, but I like to tell people it is from the Knight of the Swan.

Then, I discovered recently that there is a little croft named Kleve next to the farm where my Swedish great grandfather lived. I don't know what it could mean in Swedish, but I like the idea that it's there ;)

Ulf,
Rhys ap Gruffydd is my 25th GGF.
http://www.geni.com/path/Arthur-Wilkings-Newkirk-III+is+related+to+...

and Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson is my 32nd GGF
http://www.geni.com/path/Arthur-Wilkings-Newkirk-III+is+related+to+...

Small world.....

Erica, here is something on Phillips / Rice that is perhaps a bit better although still just a secondary source:

http://www.heritageregistry.net/html.pages/grpf06722.html

Notice here the same problem with dates, but here Agnes Rice (daughter of William) was the 2nd wife of the older Christopher Phillips.

Daughter Hannah married Joseph Morse 1638 at Watertown (not Dedham), although he still dies at Dedham, and she remarries Thomas Boyden at Dedham in 1658.

Daughter Agnes (sister of Hannah) married 1630 in Devon to Nicholas Rice or Rise, son of Henry and Elizabeth.

Ulf: "Tenby" in Welsh is "Dinbych-y-pysgod, meaning little town of the fishes or little fortress of the fish". Great minds think alike? ;-)

I have added information to the John Rice of Dedham files over time, but as amplification...never to change the parentage...What you call vandalism Justin is justification for you NOT to have to own up to your outrageous claims about the Perrott family. 19 matches and counting folks....Justin wants you and I to forget it. Not going to happen.

I added important information as I fouind it in the" about" John Rice so that others could decide for themselves. That is not vandalism, that's what relatives do when someone like yourself is trying to steal the control of that file!!! Why is my version suspect, when it's the only version that has historical references found on line other than ones you made up out of thin air JUSTIN? You want to sell your version over my Dad's version....sounds like CENSORSHIP to me.....Want to put it to a vote? I put up my version with photo's and the story with the new DNA....you can put up your version...Let the Public decide who is right or wrong!!! I would do that....Im guessing that's too much daylight for you.

The fact is for 3 years you have called for me to cave on the issue of my 7th ggrand father which I respectfully declined to do...Now that we are on the verge of 67 markers and irrefutable evidence linking Rice to Sutton to Sir John Perrot 1528 and his son, you are pulling out all the stops so the REVEAL of those values will not be shown.

Exactly whom are you working for JUSTIN? Do you receive a monthly or quarterly payment to keep such information from reaching the Public?

There is no earthly reason for you to go to such lengths unless you are under someone's pay....Who is it? Attorney, DNA specialist, you've joined in where you said you would not bother at lest 6 times over the past three years....Why can't the Geni public see the results? You don't want them seen do YOU?

Justin: the fighting was over by 1650 - had been over for a few years. The plague hit Tenby very hard and is said to have killed off half the population. The town never really recovered, not even to this day.

Go away, Dale, the adults are talking here.

Dale, I can understand that you're angry because you're cornered by the evidence.

1. You have zero Perrott matches. Look for yourself. You're alone in your own group because you (303391) don't match anyone else:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/parrott?iframe=yresults

2. You have zero Dudley matches. Look for yourself. You're ungrouped because you (303391) don't match anyone else:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dudley?iframe=yresults

3. You have zero Sutton matches. Look for yourself. You're in a group with other "still to be matched" men, none of whom match each other or anyoen else:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sutton?iframe=yresults

4. You added parents to profiles against the evidence and in the midst of a heated debate from people telling you those are not the parents. That's vandalism. Erica already posted that link. The record bears it out.

Yes, I am pushing very hard on this. A new test at 67-markers isn't going to change something that has already been disproved with a 37-marker test. You've already lost that battle. Now it's time for you to do what you've always said you would do if you were wrong -- admit it and move on.

No, I will not go away. You descend on the discussion that I started about my grandfather and you think to order me around MBH?

Ofcourse, John Rice of 1624 was accepted into the Puritan society of DEDHAM...He was the son of a scoundrel named Perrott ap Rice 1598 and the Tamzin person. Since we can't say the last name Rice you have to imagine that the person returned to Perrott by the caregiving father named ED was in fact looking out for his own financial interests and Tamzine be darned..."THat is the FAMILY DISTURBANCE" alluded to in Ma. History, and the "Row in the Rice family " that the return of John to his father caused. So, you see there was a logical reason why the LDS church thought John RICE was Edmund's son. We know differently but the Rices are quiet about Tamzine being the mother.

There were more than a single washer woman Justin. We have the Beatrice or Eden ap Rice story which got the ball rolling 4 years ago, we have the Ethelralda Mault / Dingley/Dobson Washer woman...and yes we have the Stewards of Windsor Castle in the twin girls born to Margaret Artbroke 1641 after the father had died. Lucy and Elizabeth Chalfant.

Since none of that was in the book "By the name of Rice" how could my DAD have known of them? They are all factual and the Mault story actually has a link or had one until it was disconnected two years ago to the Rices of Ma.

You are certainly all sure of history you never imagined before I arrived with insider information that you don't even bother to acknowledge....Like the son of Perrott's Daughter Anne Phillips who did not inherit. How did my father know of that?

The simple Truth is you would rather believe in YOUR version of reality than the one that was conveyed to me....You want to smear me so you can twist history to your liking.

That's up to GENI...You use words like they don't have meaning. I assure you I am conversant with the public use of the word LIAR Ms. Helms and you are on thin ice.

Maven, I wish I had saved the link rather than just posting it on a message string here. It promptly got buried in all the drivel. But -- I did have a link to a map of the campaign around Tenby. As I recall, it happened over just a few weeks. Royalist troops landing a Milford Haven, or something like that.

Someone who is particularly interested in the subject could probably find it again. It doesn't seem all that important now, but with the skirmishes so near the ap Rice home it seemed to me that Perrot ap Rice must have taken part if he was anywhere in the area, and it seemed that would be a likely time for him to be killed.

My theory at the time was that the aftermath of the fighting probably left quite a few local men dead, and would have been something that clogged the court system for years, so that Perrot's estate was not yet settled when his father died.

Bullhockey piled on bullhockey doesn't add up to truth. And 2 + 2 will never make 3, or 5, or 67, or anything but 4.

MOST people accept that and move on as they grow up...but some people never grow up.

Something else I notice is that Dale is projecting in 70mm CinemaScope.

Or what's the modern equivalent - IMAX?

Dale,

1. The "LDS church" did not think John was Edmund's son. The Church does not do original research. Some LDS person did some research and submitted the info for Temple ordinances. I know. I grew up in a Mormon world surrounded by adults who were doing exactly that. Their results were just as much a mixture of good and bad as any group of genealogists today.

2. You had a cousin who was a genealogist and who talked to your father about genealogy. Do you really believe he is an uncontaminated source? He never heard a word she said?

3. Maven is one of the most knowledgeable and respected researchers in the Geni community. When she says something it's worth hearing. The rest of us shut up and listen. Even people like me, who have a very high opinion of their own skills ;)

Hog WAsh!!! Perrott ap Rice was otta there 1640 and Thomas ap Rice died 1650...10 years. So estate settled and passed to the surviving children of Perrott the FIRST BORN SON, but not ap Rhy's son. That's another reason Perrott ap Rhys disappeared. he was not an ap Rhys. He was a Perrott.

Justin, I think this may be your link: http://bcw-project.org/military/english-civil-war/wales-marches/pem...

Maven, close, but not quite. The one I was looking at very detailed maps. You could see the mansions and castles, the roads and lanes, and even some of the stone walls. It also had a day-by-day account, so that it was possible to make a guess about when the ap Rice family might have felt their own house was in the line of attack (which actually veered off).

Dale, give it up. It's over. The whole thing is over. There is not a shred of evidence in favor and there is a ton of evidence against. At this point you're just being a troll in a discussion where other people are trying to work.

Justin, at least it does establish that there was fighting in the vicinity in 1644.

There was another, shorter round in 1648, which was apparently when Tenby took its worst shellacking: http://bcw-project.org/military/second-civil-war/wales

And then they got plague on top of *that*, in 1650.

Any one of the three events could easily have done for Mr Perrot ap Rice.

Agreed. I stopped looking at the 1644 campaign. Didn't know about any of the rest. In fact, I only found the 1644 campaign while I was looking for something else.

That 1648 campaign is interesting to me, but for a different reason. I see activity at Chepstow, which I believe was the home of Puritan immigrant Henry Luce, born about 1640. Soon I'll be off to play with that for a bit.

All things considered, I think his reaction is fairly normal. I don't think he ever thought the story could be disproved. He thought he could just ram it through.

I would be willing to bet he'll be back with a new theory. This time it will be harder to disprove because he's spent the last three years learning about evidence ;)

Nowadays, my primary interest in genealogy is disproving old frauds, but I remember when I was new to genealogy and each disconnection was like a punch in the gut. That must be what Dale is feeling right now.

What is

"the FAMILY DISTURBANCE" alluded to in Ma. History" ?

That implies a written history of Massachusetts - yet there is little mention of the John Rice family in Massachusetts history. Some vital records; one article in the NEGHR. A probate record about land for a couple of his grand children, who had already moved on to Connecticut.

A reference link to this Mass. history from DCR would be appreciated.