Is it possible for GENI to hold onto records who have come into disfavor?

NEW TO ME....never been asked or answered beyond what Maven threw at me. I don't believe it has happened more than once. If it did why am I hearing of it for the first time today?

Not new to you, Dale. People have to fix your stuff all the time. Just a few days ago Erica and I were struggling with a Perrott profile you were claiming had been vandalized because it no longer showed your theory that she was the mother of Ann Hackly.

No matter how many times you're cautioned about this, you still vandalize the tree to add unproven and disproved lines.

Dale - I do genealogy, not DNA analysis. I have no need for the DNA project.

What I require in order to discuss this Sutton is his genealogical data: a profile link on link if you can find it, if not an outside site; if not then birth & death dates & locations.

Why you have chosen a random Puritan wife as the candidate for the mother of John Rice does not make sense, nor do I believe it's anything in the story. It seems most likely a left over from the recent past when John Rice was thought a son of Edmund's.

There is no known association between your Rice family & Edmund's.

If you let go of this dis proven piece you have a clearer improbable story about Perrot. When you add this Tamzin piece, everything becomes more suspect.

Calvinball.

"Perrott ap Rice 1598 son Of John Perratt 1565 was named as the father of John RIce 1624. Simple and clean."

Oh, so now you are libeling Margaret Mercer, about whom, until *you* came along, there was never a hint of a whisper of any impropriety.

According to the historical records, Perrot ap Rice was the son of THOMAS AP RICE and Margaret Mercer, and "John Perrot II" had nothing to do with it, her, them, or Perrot ap Rice. Even *you* didn't make that claim until NOW, when all your alternative sperm-vehicles had been ruled out.

I suppose you need to be whacked over the head with the obvious: shoving one implausible Perrot in through the window kicks a solidly established Perrot connection out through the door.

Thomas ap Rice was the son of John ap Rice, of Rickeston and *Katherine Perrot*. But you'd throw that away for your fantasy - because she's "only a woman" and can't contribute Y-DNA?

What Justin refers to is Rev Allin suddenly and ahistorically acquired a sister / wife and a fictitious name. His real sister was married elsewhere, not to a Hackley, and of course never to her brother.

Yet on a curated profile this is how it appeared.

I don't add anything to the tree unless someone else did it....Justin: I told the woman who put that information up to check with Ms. Erica on the information. She's a Geni member of some time and standing. So I may have cited her work....but I told here to check with Ms. Erica back in January when I first saw it.

Naturally I was thrilled when she put it up...I even printed a copy figuring it would be taken down....You've gone over the edge here Justin. You and MM and MBH have been in attack mode for 48 hrs because I demanded to know which people were considered to be relatives Thomas Dudley.

Do what every makes you feel good, it won't stop me from doing what Im doing. Now you want to sweep me under the rug. This information about John Rice and a Son of Sir John Perrott 1565 will not be suppressed. Some of it is UGLY and not very polite to speak of...but it may be the truth and I want to see if it is....So kindly help or get of the way...because Im going to find that DNA trail if I die trying, so what? We'll all be the better for knowing how he got here!

Maven: I've always always claimed that Margaret mercer was Pregnant with Perrott ap Rice when she married Thomas ap Rhys in 1598. He was first born of 10 births over 12 years...figure it out for yourself. DAD said it was Perrott's father who got her with child and that means the ap Rhys family named Perrott for the father. Conviently they declared Perrot dead so he did not inherit the property of his named father.

If that's news to you, it's because you were not following for the last 3 years....

The Hackley information was put up in 2008 long before I got here...Dorothy was listed as a 1/2 sister back then. I don't know what has been done since I told the good lady to check with Ms. ERica. Some one tried to put me in charge of the Robert Phillips file and I had a cow just last week...saying it looked like a set up? Well now I can see that it was....This is a rail road to stop my inquiry...

I don't have to publish my search here....I like the site that's all.Good Grief what a bunch of poor souls to do this to me as I close in on the DNA answer....

Your words No mine.

Women were chattel and used by men. back then.......you can't tar me with that.

The Women who were abused by such men had it very, very hard. I protected women on Job for 13 years.... I was part of the Mayor's task force on Domestic Violence. And in 23 years I never raised a hand to my partner. So peddle your psycho crap elsewhere...This is one guy who stands up for women all the time and served on the local women's shelter for 3 years back in the day.

That you would say such a thing says to me: This is a very dark spirit. I wish you would please stop talking to me...period.

That was then. Your words are now. Are you living up to what you say you used to be and do?

I DON"T DO MERGES......I don't know how they are done...I attempted one thing back in January and that resulted in a Conflict....I left it alone figuring someone would fix it. I reported that I had a conflict but couldn't address it.

The files I have verified as relatives there were over 500 at one point...Now I only verify Grand Parents if I recognize the name from previous records. I don't have to do it...I thought I was required to do it.

You may "not know how they are done", but you DID one nonetheless - several, in fact, over Dec 31 2014-Jan 1 2015.

You *created a mess*, and then you abandoned the mess for someone else to clean up.

"Reckless, feckless, and careless" barely begins to cover it.

Who the HECK are you to querry me in such a manner? I still pay for my daughters expenses even though she's a PHD and makes 6 figures...4 times my highest earnings. YOu are not here to do psycho analysis MBH....you were once a valued team member....Absolutely untrue what you accuse me of. Now please return to the discussion at hand...If you persist I will report you.

Not that I have any recollection of. I do verification of Ancestors, and those I've done hundreds of and heard no complaints until now. You should get off your very high horsey now.

The Sutton line is directly above my ancestor's name of John Perratt 1565 and is placed along side other Suttons on the DNA site. That's what I want you to understand...The Sutton/Dudleys are aparantly not the same file....or my results are much closer to Sutton....meaning that if there is a connection between John Perrott 1528 as father of John Perratt II 1565 it's out this Sutton line. End of story until I get results back.

Your private life is none of my business, and your waving it around in public is just another attempt at distraction. I'll give you this much: you're good at it. Really really good at it.

There is no discussion. You have spent three years trying to peddle a fantasy based on a dubious genealogical book, and rejecting every single bit of evidence that undermined or exploded your fantasy. In fact, the harder you peddled, the more bizarre your fantasy has gotten.

You should have been a historical novelist (and it's still not too late). They don't have to bother with facts that get in their way - they just say "It makes a better story this way". And people let them get away with it because "it's just fiction".

Dale, just an an example look at the revision history for the Unknown Father of John Rice. You added Thomas ap Rice as his father. The curator deleted it the next day. A week later you tried to hide a note in the nicknames field that Perrot ap Rice got Tamzin [wife of Edmund Rice] pregnant and they are the possible parents of John Rice. A curator deleted it later the same day. Then you began a series of edits to the About Me to introduce your theory, which you erroneously said "has proved itself true".

In January you added Margaret Mercer and Thomas ap Rice (again) as the parents of this profile.

You were making these edits and changes at the same time you were taking heat in the discussions for not having evidence for these theories.

What is that if not VANDALISM??

There's one little problem Dale has never even *tried* to explain: John Perrot the younger is *never heard of again* after his acceptance into the Inner Temple in 1583 (and it wasn't "with his brothers", it was as "third son of").

London was not a healthy place, and was frequently swept by epidemics....

As a lesson so members who may not be aware how to review the revisions tab of a Geni profile.

Go to unknown father of John Rice of Dedham

Be sure and open up to profile view.

Go to the "revisions" tab.

I copy & paste below a history of the revisions to this curated profile. (NB: I curate it for several reasons: I am a RICHARD Rice descendant & have an interest in enduring my own Rice line stays disambiguated; I focus on Colonial America; and I am familiar with this Rice line. But "any" curator could perform the task of looking after as best we can, in partnership with profile managers).

It's too long a history for a place holder, I'll continue the paste next post.

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham is your first cousin 10 times removed's husband's nephew's wife's grandfather.
You
  → Frank William Howton
your father → show 16 relatives → John Rice, of Dedham
her father → unknown father of John Rice of Dedham
his father share this path
ADD PHOTO
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham MP
Birth: estimated between 1585 and 1619
Death: probably, England
Immediate Family:
Husband of unknown mother of John Rice of Dedham
Father of John Rice, of Dedham
Added by: Erica Isabel Howton on June 5, 2013
Managed by: Erica Isabel Howton and 2 others
Curated by: Erica Isabel Howton
Research this Person
Contact Profile Manager
View Tree
Edit Profile
Overview
Media
Timeline
Discussions
Sources
Revisions

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Maven B. Helms. about me
Yesterday at 10:02 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Maven B. Helms. about me
Yesterday at 10:01 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham was disconnected from his parents Sir Thomas (Son of John ap Rice) 1540 ap Rice (Rice), I and Margaret ap Rice (Mercer) by Erica Isabel Howton.
Mar 4 at 11:15 PM

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. about me
Mar 4 at 11:02 PM · view

Sir Thomas (Son of John ap Rice) 1540 ap Rice (Rice), I was added as unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's husband by Dale C. Rice.
Dec 27, 2014 at 5:44 PM

Margaret ap Rice (Mercer) was added as unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's mother by Dale C. Rice.
Dec 27, 2014 at 5:41 PM
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. photo id
Aug 13, 2014 at 12:46 AM · view
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. photo id
Jun 18, 2014 at 11:58 PM · view
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. photo id
Jun 14, 2014 at 5:33 PM · view
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. photo id
May 18, 2014 at 5:14 PM · view
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. photo id
Apr 23, 2014 at 1:56 AM · view
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. about me
Apr 18, 2014 at 1:02 AM · view
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. photo id
Apr 18, 2014 at 12:28 AM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. photo id
Apr 17, 2014 at 11:48 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. about me
Apr 17, 2014 at 11:40 PM · view
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. photo id
Apr 17, 2014 at 9:26 PM · view
unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated. about me
Mar 30, 2014 at 5:01 AM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. about me
Feb 5, 2014 at 7:18 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. about me
Feb 5, 2014 at 6:07 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. about me
Feb 5, 2014 at 6:05 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. about me
Dec 17, 2013 at 4:53 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. about me
Dec 17, 2013 at 4:52 PM · view

John Rice, of Dedham's parents were changed to unknown father of John Rice of Dedham and unknown mother of John Rice of Dedham by Kris Stewart.
Aug 31, 2013 at 8:05 PM

John Rice was merged into unknown father of John Rice of Dedham by Erica Isabel Howton.
Aug 13, 2013 at 4:44 PM

Lisa Cunningham was added as a manager of unknown father of John Rice of Dedham.
Aug 13, 2013 at 4:44 PM

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Erica Isabel Howton. about me
Jun 24, 2013 at 8:21 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Erica Isabel Howton. nicknames
Jun 24, 2013 at 8:20 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. nicknames
Jun 24, 2013 at 6:14 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham was disconnected from his parents Thomas ap Rice and Margaret Mercer and siblings Perrot ap Rice, John ap Rice, William ap Rice and Jane ap Rice by Kris Stewart.
Jun 18, 2013 at 3:45 PM

Thomas was added as unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's parent by Dale C. Rice.
Jun 17, 2013 at 5:41 PM

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Dale C. Rice. birth and nicknames
Jun 15, 2013 at 12:54 AM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was locked by Erica Isabel Howton. death, gender, living status and 1 other
Jun 5, 2013 at 7:00 PM

Kris Stewart was added as a manager of unknown father of John Rice of Dedham by Kris Stewart.
Jun 5, 2013 at 1:03 PM

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was unlocked by Erica Isabel Howton. all
Jun 5, 2013 at 12:59 PM

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Erica Isabel Howton. death
Jun 5, 2013 at 12:52 PM · view

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was locked by Erica Isabel Howton. all
Jun 5, 2013 at 12:48 PM

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's profile was updated by Erica Isabel Howton. master
Jun 5, 2013 at 12:48 PM · view

unknown mother of John Rice of Dedham was added as unknown father of John Rice of Dedham's wife by Erica Isabel Howton.
Jun 5, 2013 at 12:46 PM

unknown father of John Rice of Dedham was added as John Rice, of Dedham's father by Erica Isabel Howton.
Jun 5, 2013 at 12:46 PM

Dale, It's unfortunate that misogyny isn't something that will get you kicked off Geni. For that, the vandalism will have to be enough.

Still, I want to echo Maven's reading of your theories and comments. Women might legally have been chattel to some of our ancestors, but even then they were valuable partners in the family as an economic unit. Few households could survive without both husband and wife to oversee their areas of authority.

Along the same lines, when we read about parents making arranged marriages for their children, we should all be remembering that the children's futures depended on both sets of parents contributing enough property so the kids didn't end up as day laborers.

When you read that a woman such as Margaret ap Rice never married, you should not be thinking it was because she couldn't bear children. Even if everyone knew she couldn't bear children, which is doubtful in itself, she could still have been a good and desirable wife for someone. Most likely it was something else. She's was developmentally disabled, or she had a strong religious vocation, or her family didn't have enough money.

One lesson we should all take from DNA tests is that, on the whole, they show women being remarkably faithful. It's an amazing thing to match a cousin separate by 600 years and realize that every child on both lines really was almost certainly the child of the mother's husband.

And, when we know of breaks in the DNA we can very often find that they aren't caused by infidelity, but by people generously taking in orphans.

If someone wants to be a skeptic here, I would also argue that our ancestors just didn't have as much privacy as we do. Not only were the social mechanisms around fidelity stronger, but there was often less opportunity to violate them.

No one can prove that your family lived up to those same standards, but it bothers me that you've taken the idea there was one illegitimacy (originally between a washer woman and a king) and turned it into a three successive illegitimacies, at least two of which were adulterous, and one of which was a brother-sister incest.

Since you have no evidence for any of it, the whole thing says more about your opinion of women than it does about your ancestors' lives.

The descendants of John Rice seemed to be pious folk, elders in their church congregations, and so on. Not that religious observation necessarily points to a moral compass - but it does to a societal one; they were community members in good standing. I didn't see any (what they used to call) "shiftlessness."

Wouldn't that suggest that this was the tradition in which they were raised?

Perhaps John Rice was a complete break from a different kind of past. But wouldn't it be more likely that he was a continuation, just on a new continent?

Thanks, Erica. I should have done that. Pasting the history gives an idea of what Dale was doing, but I think some of the worst stuff is actually hidden behind the links.

If it had been all back in 2013 I would have just shrugged. I would think he's surely learned his lesson by now.

But, when I saw December 2014 I had to step away from the computer for a few minutes.

I know you told me a few months I should check what he is doing, but I guess I just thought it was putting more of his theories in the About Me sections. If feel pretty stupid now. I should have checked when you asked.

Erica, I think you're right about illegitimacy. As genealogists most of us develop a sixth sense. Certain times, certain places, certain social classes. If Dale had placed his story about the nobility of Regency England, or among poor, landless 19th century southerners; or among pioneers moving West -- we'd all smile and nod. Been there, seen it.

But among the Puritans? That's something to sit up and take notice. Not that it didn't happen, but that it's always such a scandal for them.

I think I've made this point before, and I don't want to over read the evidence, but one sticking point for me is that our Puritan ancestors believed to the depths of their being that there was such a thing as "bad blood". All that talk about people coming from a good family isn't just chatter -- and they don't mean that the family had money, the way our Victorian ancestors did.

Personally, and just for me, I cannot imagine the Super Puritans of Dedham taking in an illegitimate child who was already half raised. Bad blood, indeed. Every woman in the settlement would have been thinking that his mere presence was a threat to the purity of their daughters.

Whoever John Rice might have been, I'm convinced he came from a "good family" and his parents were honorable Puritans such that the people of Dedham could expect John to show the same piety and virtue.

Justin, given the precise time setting, there's another, sadder possibility for why Margaret ap Rice never married. She could have been promised to someone who was killed in the fighting, and chosen to remain faithful to his memory. (This happens, now and again, in *every* war.)

(Or, alternatively, there may not have been anyone left alive that she *wanted* to marry - that happens too.)

Footnote: Tenby was utterly *devastated* by the Civil War, and by a sweep of plague in 1650. Poor Margaret may have found that her available choices were doddering oldsters and schoolboys, and opted out.

There is also a difference in the "tone" of these first towns, doubtless set by their ministers. I was struck by how in Dedham they passed an extraordinarily detailed compact, signed by the freemen; it was only "tweaked" in 1680 or so, some 40 years later, allowing "strangers" to settle there. Dedham also deliberately kept themselves off the beaten track & did not quickly tame "the trackless forest" surrounding them.

My own feel is that the Dedham Compact was formulated in Dorchester / Roxbury before they even sent exploring parties & the initial settlers chosen. This was a planned community down to which orphans they brought with them.

So who were the freemen? It is among that group that the connecting families of John Rice & Ann Hackley could be found.

That's a new piece for me. Perrot's father died in 1650. If Tenby was devastated and had plague the same year it becomes even likelier that Perrot himself also died in the fighting or plague. I've always thought he probably died in the fighting but I didn't know about the plague. A nearly simultaneous death would explain why we don't find a particular record.

The mistake Dale is making is that he's trying very hard to bring together two different Rice families from opposite sides of Britain, and somehow fit in a male line descent from Henry VIII.

I often think if I had plotted this kind of genealogical fraud I would have been much cagier. I probably would have stuck to William Rice, of Boemer, then tried to argue that he was the illegitimate son of Henry VIII. That might have worked until they exhumed some Tudor bodies.

can we talk about somthing other then tudors?

Erica, you already know my guess for that --

Hannah Phillips married Joseph Morse in 1638 at Dedham. Her mother was Agnes Rice.

She was from Barnstaple.

Speaking a time two generations later, "As member of the House of Commons for Barnstaple in 1679/80 and again in 1688, Richard Lee represented one of the most significant strongholds of Puritanism in Devon during the years of the Exclusion Crisis." Puritanism and Its Discontents, edited by Laura Lunger Knoppers (2003).

"As was the case with numerous towns in the seventeenth century, dominated as they were by middle-class merchants, Barnstaple came under heavy puritan influence, perhaps especially because of the local power of the strongly puritan earls of Bedford. Devon, edited by John M. Wasson (1986).

"Such, I conceive, were the Church Puritans, whose influence, as we shall presently see, was paramount in the affairs of the municipality of Barnstaple before and at the beginning of the Civil War. They were Churchmen first and Parliamentarians afterwards." Barnstaple and the Northern Part of Devonshire During the Great Civil War ... By Richard W. Cotton (1889), 26-27.

The mother-in-law of a Dedham settler just happens to have the same last name as a boy in the settlement? How coincidental is that?