Richard III of England - DNA Contribution...

I agree that I-1 Haplogroup came out of the Near Middle East up through Eastern Europe Germany and into Scandanavia. The map also shows them moving West toward Spain across Greece, Italy, France. I guess my point is, that for human beings that Originated in West Africa, why is it not logical that they moved Northward along the Coast where seafood would have been plentiful and into the area south of Gibraltar? Im betting that no one has found evidence because there are few caves in the area. A lower sea level at the time would create a near land bridge there and they would have done exactly as you suggested, followed the animals they were hunting North to Spain. Picts/ Celts show bone growth in the feet which are a mix of breeding groups, so they are certainly more ancient than Greeks/Romans of the last 2,000 years. YES? Im asking a logic question so please do not respond as though Im in disagreement....Im not. DCR

PS: Our family --- I-1 Haplogroup from Scandenavia 7,000 year ago + 3.2% Neanderthal as tested .7 higher than most Europeans of today, and Mt. DNA = J1a = North Africa not Eastern Europe. The majority of skeleton's are found intact in the East... but that does not mean they started out there. DCR

Actually, the level would only have sunken by 100-150 meter,
the depth iF I remember it right, would been 900 hundreds
meter between Gibraltar and Africa.

But there are other places where they maybe would have been able to cross over without getting their feet wet, like between Tunis bay and Sicilia I guess.

Dale, I'm not sure whether I want to contribute to keeping this part of the discussion going. First, because I'm not seeing any evidence that anyone else is interested, but second and maybe more importantly, I have some quibbles with the majority academic opinion. I wouldn't help anyone if I act like a pseudo-expert by giving my opinion, but I also don't want to just parrot back things that I don't necessarily agree about.

Skeletons are only a small part of how the picture gets created. Finding a skeleton with a particular haplogroup can help weaken or support a theory about migrations and dating, but the theories aren't based on where skeletons have been found.

Instead, there's a very basic theoretical idea that, in the absence of contrary evidence, groups originated in the same area where they have their greatest modern concentration AND greatest modern diversity. When they talk about diversity, they are really talking about the oldest branches of the group. If these branches are found only alongside other very old branches and if they're all in one small area and seem never to have moved anywhere else, that's taken to be an indication that the whole larger group is probably from that area.

Take Haplogroup G as an example. Most websites will tell you that it originated in the Caucasus or Turkey. However, you have to dig a little deeper to get the full picture. The greatest modern concentration of G is in the Caucasus mountains, but the greatest modern diversity is (apparently) in Turkey (Anatolia), just to the south. So, the origin must be somewhere around that area but no one is really sure how it happened.

Did it originate in Turkey and become concentrated in the Caucasus with tribes retreating into the mountains? Or did it originate in the mountains and move down into the plains very early in its history? Remember that there was probably a great deal of population flow between the two areas over thousands of years. That population flow obscures the picture.

There are old branches of Haplogroup G in Greece, and Crete. There are also very noticeable concentrations in Tuscany and the Alps, but in all four of these areas the branches are younger and there aren't a lot of other old branches around them. So, it looks like these are later migrations.

The oldest Hap G skeletons are from southern France and central Germany. They seem to have concentration, but again, not diversity.

So, it looks like Haplogroup G probably originated in the Caucasus, spread to Europe with the earliest farmers, and established some significant branches that appear only in Europe.

There are similar stories for all of the European haplogroups. The concentrations are "here" and "here", the oldest branches are "here", the people in this area are a branch of the people in that area. Pretty soon you have a good picture of the migrations, but sometimes there's a major breakthrough that causes minor revisions.

And this is one of the quibbles I have. You looked at the map. You saw the people entering Europe 45 000 years ago. I would argue that we don't actually know that directly.It's an assumption from indirect evidence. What we really know is that after the ice age (20 to 25 thousand years ago) Europeans spread out from refugia (refuges), in Spain and Ukraine. We also know that the populations that came out of those refugia were already mixed. So, it's logical to think that humans had already been in Europe, got pushed back by the ice into warmer climes, mixed while they were there, then spread out again behind the retreating ice. It's not that I think experts are wrong about any of that. It's just that I see a potential for confusion if we don't keep in mind that part of this is a leap of faith and could be overturned by new evidence someday.

It's just my personal opinion, but I don't think it's impossible that humans entered Spain from Gibraltar. I don't see any reason why they couldn't. And, it's possible (I think) they contributed to the refugium population in Spain.

Dale, the problem I see with the way you're conceptualizing it for different haplogroups is that it doesn't take into the concentration and diversity of those groups elsewhere. It's like you're saying this relatively young branch of R1b appeared in the middle of nowhere and far away from the parent group and also far away from where the parent group has to have lived. That could be true, but I would want a better, more academic argument than "it's the shortest path".

As far as going across Gibraltar, you might not even need to reach that far. There is a controversial theory that the end of the ice age caused a deluge into the Black Sea, which gave rise to the stories about the Great Flood, and which ultimately caused the Mediterranean Sea to rise to today's levels. If you wanted to argue it that way, you could take the R1b folks from west Asia all the way around the Mediterranean along the North African side, then walk across the "direct way" into Spain ;)

I find the above very acceptable and worthy of discussion. I can move to another site as I have often done in the past. Our ancestors crossed paths a very long time ago, and now their descendants are in conversation by the electronic Web of communication. I say Bravo to the people who made that leap possible. Im glad you are skeptical because it's my family tradition going back to Police Training to never accept anything on the first go round of answers. Irritating but useful over the long term to get to a truthful examination of conflicting ideas. I Haplogroup sub-clade of F preceeds the R Haplogroup by some 15,000 years. Not in Europe mind you but over the long haul of time....is there agreement or disagreement on that fundamental idea? Im seeing I out of Africa and R1b out of Central Europe and Mongols. R1b sweeps East to West but G & I and I-1 move South to North. Where they decided to land and farm was a function of many variables....had they stayed put we would be in Tanganyika along with Lucy.

No, I don't think we can agree about that.

As I pointed out earlier, dating tends to be volatile. There is a tension among different dating methods. It's fairly common to see substantial changes in dating. G is 30 thousand years old. No wait, it's only 10 thousand years old. I1 is 15 thousand years old. No wait, it's only 5 thousand years old.

If you pay careful attention to articles on subject, the cautious language should stand out. Scholar A suggested X years, but more recently Scholar B suggested Y years. Everyone expects the dating to change.

On the other hand, the actual relationships of the groups is firm. I and R share a common ancestor IJK, a descendant of F. I branched off from IJ, and R branched off from P, which had earlier branched off from K.

You think I is 15 thousand years older than R, but current thinking has I originating 25 to 30 thousand years ago in Europe, and R originating 24 to 34 thousand years ago in south or west Asia. To get the gap you want, you'd have to take the upper end for I and the lower end for R. Even then, you only get a 6 thousand year difference. Really, though, they're about the same age.

Hmmmm, that's really confusing but I accept it as your guidance. It is not the conclusion I reached from reading all those posts in blue on the subject, which concluded R1b moved East to West arising in the Stepps of Asia/Russia and I in West Africa. So I'll go from here. Thanks for the input. My goal is to make the story of MY family as uncomplicated as I can. DCR

Take a look at the map on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosome_haplogroups_by_populations

Notice your I1 people concentrated up around Scandanavia, their closest cousins I2 in the Balkans, that little pocked in the Ukraine, and that little pocket of I down north of the Caucasian Mountains.

Then ask yourself how they got there and where their common ancestor would have lived.

The older theory was that they came up from the refugium in Spain. The newer theory is that they came in from Ukraine, some moving north west and others moving south west.

That's as simple as it gets ;)

The common ancestor for I-1 had to be Sea-Going who set out from Africa and colonized not only Scandanavia but also Iceland according to the map. Sea level was higher. Or they walked northward on the land(sea level lower), following the coast of France to Scandanavia. It's perplexing that they don't show up in SPAIN. Which makes me think they left on board ship in a warmer ERA. If They were light skinned, which could have been reason to leave their kin-folk, the coastal N.French I-1 where I am identified, makes some sense. Out of Russia I don't follow at all because I-1 did not derive from R1b. It's the other way round; And then forced back to the south by Glaciation as you suggested of 15,000 years ago where I2 developed? (I'll have to ponder this a while) DCR

Iceland was colonized in very recent historic times, by a population predominantly from Norway. Damn right they were seagoing - they were VIKINGS.

Before the late 9th century AD, nobody lived there - or had *ever* lived there - except maybe a few Irish monks (who, the Icelanders claim, saw their sails on the horizon, jumped in their coracles, and got off the island).

Dale, think about the time scales here. I think you'd have a hard time making the case for migrants in ships 25 to 30 thousand years ago, when the earliest evidences of sea trade only go back about 5 thousand years and the Phoenicians, great sea traders that they were, including their trade in British tin, didn't come on the scene until about 3 thousand years ago. The settlement of Iceland was only a little over 1 thousand years ago.

And again: I1 did not derive from R1b, and R1b did not derive from I1. They are distant "cousins", with a common ancestor 45 to 47 thousand years ago. That ancestor seems to have lived about 30 thousand years before the first R1b and 40 thousand years before the first I1.

I have been reading and catching up on this fantastic discussion. I find it most interesting and educational. Justin, you are a great asset of geni.com.

DNA is new to me and am trying to put the pieces together for my heritage. My yDNA Haplogroup is R1b1a, M269. My Y-STR, dys 425 marker 425 is null. My mtDNA is Haplogroup is V. My eyes are blue and skin tone light. My ethnicity estimate is 65% Europe West, 22% Great Britain, 4% Iberian Peninsula, 2% Italy/Greece, Ireland 2%, Europe East 2% Scandinavia 2% and West Asia greater than 1%. So this discussion has been very enlightening for me.

I have traced through geni.com, hopefully true, to be a descendant of the Hun kings and find a progression westward through many royal ancestors, including Ukraine, Norman, Carolinian, Plantagenet, German, Viking, Irish, Scotish, English.

Dale, I probably fit in your concept that there is a royal gene. I have often pondered on this but I don't believe that this is true. It is coincidental.

John, did you take a short test, or a deeper test? It is often recommended that R men retest with as many markers as they can afford, because there are so many subtypes (and they're still finding more).

John Pat, can we persuade you to share the details? You hit the DNA jackpot. No pressure, but I've been sooo hoping you won't be shy ;)

Hi Maven and Justin, I had my yDNA tested at the 111 level. I have signed up for the BIG Y and should get results soon. When I get the results I'll share them with you. I'm not shy, or did you know that? Will you share your insights with me?

John Pat

John Patrick McCaffrey, you're my 23rd cousin twice removed,
with the polish kings right between us. Last time I checked
you were my 44th cousin, with this rate we maybe ends up
as siblings!

John Pat, you already gave the details but you skipped the cool parts.

You're Null 425 in R1b, which tells us without even asking that you've tested at least 67 markers. Being Null 425 means that there are only a couple of places you can fit in the R1b tree and you're in the coolest of them.

You're in the Clan Colla group (as you already know), descendants of one of the oldest royal families in Europe, the kings of Oriel in Ireland who are said to be descended from Colla da Chrioch, who lived in the 4th century.

And you're DYS505=9, which means you're close to the core group, not one of the fringe members.

When I say you hit the DNA jackpot, this is what I mean. This is the kind of result everyone hopes for, but very few people get. While the rest of us are piecing together little clues and arguing about migrations, your results place your family firmly in a specific place as a branch of a particular family.

Yes, you are right, The map was not showing when the I-1 people arrived in Iceland, that's simply a reflection of later travels by Viking ships to Iceland and likely North America too. I was having a hard time conceptualizing why there were no remains found in Spain....but 30 K ago they were still hunter gatherers following herds, and family groups just kept going where the herd went and did not stay behind to Farm in Central Spain. They would follow deer/elk/bear/Bison/ ever northward I suppose.

I-1's are from a single male in Scandanavia with a SEVERE bottle neck effect & HIS reach into Sweeden/Finland and back down to Denmark and Channel England was likely a rebound from new Ice sheets being layed down 15,000-10,000 years ago. So that's when I-2's were driven south by new Ice Sheets ?

JPM: Im looking for the first four of your makers to be 13 22 14 10 middle four 12 14 15 16 and last four of first 37 markers 35 - 35 11 10. Those are the repeats I find In Stewarts/(which you have in abundance in the Grey family) same for Mt. Batten R1b and Tasr Nicholas. The Scandinavian Tutors have these as well but are I-1 Haplougroup out of Sweden. Same for Drakes and Hamilton and my special group: The Sutton -Dudley's. That's the marker group that seems to repeat itself across the Leadership class that I guess I alone believe in.

Justin, this Colla is both my 47 and 46 gf, but as you read Gerhards earlier statement, the path to the vikings over the drotning family are
not 100% certain, only to about 95%, but is it possible that traces Of Colla would show up from him in my DNA test, thus he is on my both parents side?

I get the feelings that DNA is very much depending on coincidences more than anything else?

Colla da Chrioch mac Eochaidh Ó Cuinn is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 47th great grandfather!

http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Colla-da-Chri...

Marianne Linnéa Iréne Martinsson is Colla da Chrioch mac Eochaidh Ó Cuinn's 45th great granddaughter!

http://www.geni.com/path/Colla-da-Chrioch-%C3%93-Cuinn+is+related+t...

Hello and greetings in the discussion "round"!

Fascinating discussion, by the way. And very deep. ;-)
Now, I am not certain exactly how accurate or verified, these paths may or may not be, but I can vouch for the ones, I am manager or co- manager of in the Whitney lines and the Cromer/Colt(Covault/Covalt) lines up to Abraham, Jr..

So, Geni says:

John Patrick McCaffrey is my 12th cousin twice removed.
You → Linda Sue Cox your mother → Gladys Mae Lockwood Tyler (Kelley) her mother → Vivian Lucille Kelley/Payne/alias- Smith (Cromer) her mother →Floyd Francis Cromer her father → Elizabeth Ann Cromer (Grosvenor) his mother → Araminta Margaret Grosvenor (Whitney) Houser her mother → Francis Tufts Whitney her father → Joseph Whitney his father → Mercy Whitney (Hinckley) his mother → Thankful Hinckley (Atwood) her mother → Eleazer Atwood her father →Stephen Joseph Atwood, Jr. his father → Stephen Atwood his father → John "Younger" Johannes Atwood his father → Alice Mullins, "Mayflower" Passenger his sister →Priscilla Mullins, "Mayflower" Passenger her daughter → Elisabeth Pabodie (Alden) her daughter → Mercy Simmons (Pabodie) her daughter → William Simmons her son →John Simmons his son → Rachel Simmons his daughter → Frederick Brownell her son → Elijah Hanchett Brownell his son → Jennie Minerva Brownell his daughter →Horace McCaffrey, Sr. her son → Horace McCaffrey, Jr. his son → John Patrick McCaffrey his son

AND

John Patrick McCaffrey is your 19th cousin twice removed.
You → Linda Sue Cox your mother → Gladys Mae Lockwood Tyler (Kelley) her mother → Vivian Lucille Kelley/Payne/alias- Smith (Cromer)
her mother →Floyd Francis Cromer her father → William Harrison Cromer his father → Harrison "Abe" Cromer his father → Sarah Jane Cromer (Covalt) his mother → Timothy Isaac Covalt her father → Abraham Covalt, Jr. his father → Abraham Colt, III his father → Susannah Colt (Risley) his mother → Richard Risley her father → Richard Risley his father →Lady Anne Hyde his mother → Robert Hyde, Esq., of Hyde Hall her father → Robert Hyde, Sr his father → Hamnet Hyde his father → Robert Hyde his father → Thomas Hyde his father→ Margaret Davenport his mother → Margaret de Venables her mother → Sir Hugh de Venables, of Kinderton her brother → Margery de Venables his daughter →Ellen Mainwaring her daughter → Edward Fitton her son → John Fitton, Esq. his son → Anne Holland (Fitton) his daughter → Edward Holland her son → John Holland his son →Lydia Ann Simmons (Holland) his daughter → Moses Simmons, of Duxbury her son → John Simmons, of Duxbury his son → William Simmons his son → John Simmons his son→ Rachel Simmons his daughter → Frederick Brownell her son → Elijah Hanchett Brownell his son → Jennie Minerva Brownell his daughter → Horace McCaffrey, Sr. her son→ Horace McCaffrey, Jr. his son→ John Patrick McCaffrey his son

I hear you, Justin, about being on topic, though I'm not clear anymore what the topic is. However, if anyone can go into my tree and add people with errors, how can we trust anything on Geni? Yes, I have submitted my DNA to Gedmatch. My Kit # is A475399, but Gedmatch is apparently overwhelmed and they tell me it may be more days before it's up. Please, any and all feel free to check it against yours, or tell me the exciting details about it.

GENI says, I connect through the Neville branch. His mother's brother Richard.
http://www.geni.com/path/Theresa-Renée-Eléna-Delgado-Tossas+is+rela...

Lois, you are my 11th Cousin on geni. We share Sarah Lincoln's Father Abraham Jones Sr. as an Ancestor.
You
→ Carol Gene Pierce
your father → Thelma Pierce
his mother → William Howard McDaniel
her father → Perry McDaniel
his father → Ephraim McDaniel
his father → Hannah McDaniel
his mother → Lydia Lincoln
her mother → John Lincoln, Sr.
her father → Mordecai Lincoln, Jr.
his father → Sarah Lincoln
his mother → Abraham Jones, Sr.
her father → John Lloyd Jones
his brother → Elizabeth Jones
his daughter → Dorcas Buss
her daughter → James Chandler
her son → Jonathon Chandler
his son → Jonathan Chandler 2
his son → <private> Chandler
his son → Eli Wilson Chandler
his son → Alma Rachel Winne
his daughter → Leola Jane Sheldon
her daughter → Rachel
her daughter → Lois Marian Jewell
her daughter
Gedmatch confirms we are related and share the most DNA on Chromosome 12 at 4.8 CM. If you want further confirmation just sign up for FTDNA and add Jones in your surname but this looks pretty good.
We share more than 1 ancestor.
Comparing Kit F348392 (*FemalePierce) and A475399 (Lois Marian Jewell)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 700 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 350 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 2.0 cM

Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
5 34734450 37959121 3.3 771
10 20257666 23392377 2.2 749
10 109595055 112833075 2.8 705
12 20510357 22958882 3.7 969
12 46571681 51269421 4.8 1103
Largest segment = 4.8 cM
Total of segments > 2 cM = 16.8 cM
If anyone else want's to play gedmatch with me, look for me in the new discussions. I started one there. All of my lines so far have been spot on. FTDNA will not pick up our distant ancestors by DNA because they limit CM match size but it will pick them up by surname, especially if our ancestors have crossed paths again.

Dale, if you can tolerate some gentle good humor let me ask --

If you haven't looked at the scientific data, but you disagree with the experts about relationships, dating, and migrations, how is that different from a story you just made up?

I like the story that my haplogroup G2a people are descendants of Aeneas, a Trojan prince who escaped the Fall of Troy, went to Italy, and was the ancestor of the Romans (and the Merovingians, Carolingians, and Habsburgs).

One of my buddies prefers the story that our G2a ancestors was an Alan, one of the barbarian tribes that invaded Europe from the Russian steppes in the 5th century (and was the ancestor of the Merovingians, Carolingians, and Habsburgs, but not the Romans).

But both of us are resigned to accepting the scientific evidence that our G2a ancestors were really Stone Age farmers who pushed up into central Europe through Turkey and Greece (and the Merovingian, Carolingian, and Habsburg genealogies are obvious fakes).

;)

Ulf, Colla would probably not show up in your DNA. He lived so long ago that he probably doesn't show up in anyone's DNA unless it's in the male line. That's because yDNA passes down through the male line unchanged, except for occasional mutations.

That's why John Pat is so lucky.

Historians aren't really sure that Colla was a real person. Most historians say the oldest proven male line in Europe is the O'Neills, going back to about the 6th century. The O'Neills are supposedly descendants of Colla, but it's not clear how reliable the pedigree is.

What is clear, however, is that the Null 425 people in John Pat's group share a common ancestor who lived about the time of Colla. And, the families who have a paper trail back to Colla all have the same yDNA from an ancestor who lived about the time of Colla. Easier to just call him Colla ;)

Are you guys talking about the three Colla's or Somerled?

Three Collas.

Very interesting..does everyone find them to be mythical or relevant? I see they are on the Geni trail. I was curious so I looked at Ulf's to see if I shared it. We do http://www.geni.com/path/Wanda+is+related+to+Colla-da-Chrioch-%C3%9... so if Ulf matches me on FTDNA or Gedmatch... I wonder...?

Lois and Wanda, I have matches with both of you at Gedmatch.

When I reset the thresholds as described above, I get matches to Wanda at three points: 2.3 cM, 2.8 cM, and and 4.2 cM. Geni thinks we're 11th cousins once removed. That seems plausible for our DNA match, assuming that we probably have multiple connections from these colonial families. I recognize the F prefix as meaning that Wanda's results come from FTDNA, but the match isn't high enough for Wanda to show in my list of matches there, even as a distant cousin.

When I reset the thresholds, I get matches to Lois at two points: 2.1 cM and 8.3 cM. If I use the default thresholds, I still get the 8.3 match. Geni thinks we're 17th cousins, but based on that 8.3 match we're likely to be much, much closer. I recognize the Gedmatch preix A as meaning that Lois' results come from Ancestry.com. I haven't tested there, so I can't check for more detail.

If anyone is interested, I have two kits at Gedmatch:
F000140 (from FTDNA)
M161907 (from 23andme)