The Dudley Paternity Legend of Sir Francis Bacon-Dudley

Started by Dale C. Rice on Thursday, November 20, 2014
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The Paternity of Sir Francis Bacon (Dudley) is part of the TUDOR Era, and names Sir Robert Dudley as father, and Sir Francis as the son of Elizabeth I Tudor Queen of England ( HERE ON GENI). There is room for discovery here because the cover up has gone on since Sir Francis was born 1562-63. The French and Spanish had made clear that an official marriage by Elizabeth to Sir Robert would be cause for them to join forces and REMOVE her from the Throne of England, HENSE the secrecy of any births or marriage by the QUEEN had national/international significance. It is 453 years since that time of secrecy and the time has come to LOOK at the DNA trail leading back to Sir Robert Dudley.

There are official court records that show the Child Francis being brought to the Royal apartments, and his proximity to the Queen while a young man, living across form the Queen in a private residence. He trained at Grey's Inn and for a time had his 1/2 brother, Anthony Bacon as companion at Grey's Inn, who both functioned as associates to Lord Burleigh on behalf of the Queen for French relations. His access to Elizabeth is documented in various official records of the House of Commons and the indirect evidence may now be ready for closer examination since there is a downline DESCENDENT that has been identified as having an I-1 Haplogroup.

Whether there is evidence of other male off spring from this alleged Union of Sir Robert Dudley (Master of the Horse January 1564) The Birth of one John Perratt II November 17, 1565 (see julian calendar start of new year March) nine months after the elevation of Sir Robert to that position is matter of Record in the History of Parliment:( noted on a prior thread now discontinued): This is at the present a Coincidence of history and nothing more. But we should be able to look without being called names.

My observations are as a novice family investigator, and are openly acknowledged to be unofficial and Non-Professional but hopefully a joint examination of these COINCIDENTAL & over lapping lives may yet stimulate a deeper inquiry. The outline I am following is the much discussed and derided FAMILY TRADITION of the John RICE 1630 of Dedham, Ma. story handed off imperfectly in October 1978 4 months before the passing of my 92 year old father, who named Dudley as the father of Sir Francis and the person who is now identified as John Perratt II 1565 raised in the household of Sir John PERROTT 1528, son of Mary Berkley-Pughe and later married to Sir Thomas Perrott . This person was aparantly raised in the home of FOSTERmother Sybil Johns at both Waterford Ireland, and Carew Castle, with brother's Sir James Perrott(eventual Heir of Sir Johns estates) and Wm. Perrott a Choral Music master BUT, all named as natural sons of Sir John and Sybil Johns-Perrott. All Three boys are named as sons in the Admissions records of Grey's Inn Oxford in 1580, again on another discontinued thread.

The fact that OXFORD named the three boys as being sons of Sir John Perrott cannot be swept under the rug. Nor can his participation in the Crowning of Elizabeth I in the days before the actual event where he was clearly elevated by the dynastic powers at work in the Allegory show to the Common people of the time as Elizabeth being depicted as the Heir of the "TRUTH & RIGHTFUL" honor of her newly elevated position. Sir John Perrott 1528 was also part of that "TRUTH" of her right to be crowned and He was seated in the Family section of the crowning ceremony according to the reading I have done. Sir John Perrott 1528 eventually was attained for saying unflattering things about the monarch, and died in the Tower 1593. Some say he would have been spared but likely died of starvation despite being a force in the Elizabethan Court especially during the Spanish Armada invasion. There is now evidence that the person Sir Francis & John Perratt II and a thrid brother named Arthur Dudley were fathered by the same man. I say the light of Day needs to be turned on this mystery....

some people never learn.. more crack pot theories to ignore..

I'm glad that Dale is back, and I hope that this Discussion is the start of "Rice Pudding Part III".

http://www.geni.com/path/Robert-Dudley+is+related+to+Michael-mcCann...

http://www.geni.com/path/Robert-Dudley+is+related+to+Benjamin?from=...

What is Crystal Clear from my time away from Geni is that I-1 Haplogroup is the older haplogroup between R1b1, the usurper blood group of the Norman Conquest.

Secondly, the fight to retain control of the Crown of England ended I-1 domination of England's leadership class with the beheadings of Sir John Sutton and his son Guilford in the Protestant grab for power when Edward VI died so young without establishing the line of succession to a Protestant.

Lastly: My search for the father of John RICE 1630 was completed in understanding that John Perratt II 1565 is a Dudley, not a Tudor. And that the description my father gave me in 1978 pointed directly to the link in the person of Charity, my 3rd GGrand mother married to Edward Rice of Pomfret N.Y.

Solving for Charity is my task at hand. The person my father described which Links the Rice family to John Lackland is the 17th ggrand daughter of John Lackland...also being Charity Derby. She is also Francis and Squire Thomas Dudley's 6th cousin.

If we can find something that links her or even disaqualifies her as being the wife of my 3rd ggf Edaward I will be glad to know because I have spent 3 months searching diligently on line any clue. Thank you Benjamin and Michael....you already have established links to Sir Robert Dudley and that's good to know.

http://www.geni.com/path/John-Dudley+is+related+to+Charity-Derby?fr...

http://www.geni.com/path/John-Lackland-King-of-England+is+related+t...

Curators: Do any of you have any source reference for Charity Derby 1723 of Fairfield, Con other than the Wickipedia information which does not reference a Husband or family? If we can rule her out as Charity wife of Edward that would be helpful. DCR

What is the wikipedia reference link please?

and why trust wikiepdia in the first place that's a iffy source

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Derby-265

I have been up and down the internet...this seems to dead end here. DCR

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Charity-Derby?fr...

This is the person that links the entire 1978 story together IF, she is wife of my 3rd GGF Edward Rice. She would be his great Niece. Both families were Quakers and Pomfret is due west of Fairfield Con. 1750.

Dale - thank you. I'm not sure the linking means what you think it does, but certainly it's reasonable to look at Charity Derby as a member, in some fashion, of the Rice tree. Give us a day or two to see what can be added to her profile -- anyone welcome to join in.

not my area of expertise sorry

Thankyou....I believe there is a Marriage Certificate in Con. ca 1750,
But I don't have the membership to get it off of Ancestory.com.

Curators: There is a problem with the DOB of Anne Phillips ca 1590 listed as the daughter of Sir John Perrott 1528 and Jane Prust Perrott who died 1561. Thirty years before Anne's Birth See:

Jane Perrot

One of these two dates is off by 30 years. Anne Phillips, Sir John's Daughter married to Sir John Picton is known to have R1b1 Haplogroup gave birth to a Son named Robert Phillips who did not inherit from his father. His date of birth is listed here as 1582 or 8 years before his mother's estimated date of birth, 1590. Thanks for whatever attention anyone give this. DCR

http://www.geni.com/path/David-ap-Rice+is+related+to+Robert-Phillip...

Dale C. Rice

I'm looking into the Darby family of Hebron CT. I've added Vital Records for your study here:

John Darby

So far not much luck on further tracking of Charity (daughter of John & Hannah) from what you already see.

This is actually interesting as it suggests she moved on from CT.

I suggest building out the male sibling trees. There was a niece who married an Arnold & moved to Luzerne, PA. At some point -- the 1740's? families went on the move.

Okay...good spot, will see where this leads. DCR

Ms. Erica: There has been a development on Ann Hackley, wife of my 6th ggrandfather John Rice of Dedham. I had found a reference to Dorothy Allin, sister? of John Allin first minister of Dedham who is now shown as mother of Ann Hackley-Rice. I mentioned that I found a brith record in England which recorded Ann born to Dorothy and a James Hackley named in the birth record. I included that reference in the about section of a profile as speculation reference my father's testimony 1978. Another Pro geneaoligist has picked it up and she now appears as the daughter of Reverend John Allin. I have not made any changes to the Rice family tree.
http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+John-Alleyne?fro...

http://www.geni.com/path/John-Rice+is+related+to+John-Perratt?from=...

The debate over "UNKNOWN Father" and "UNPROVED father" has taken a turn it seems. This was added yesterday and I saw it this morning. fyi only I have made no changes so this is between pros here at Geni. DCR 1948

It was a bad merge. There was no supporting information. I fixed it back to conform to the known facts. Thank you for calling attention.

Have just found a single 2 step variation on the first 25 markers for Lawrence Parrott 1670 believed to be the son of Robert Perrott son John Perrott the Quaker. FYI over 37 markers there are 4 additional markers of variation for a total of 5. Here is the downline descendants of that Perrott line.

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Walter-Lee-Parro...

Also please see paragraph #13 & 14 in the Origins section of this Geni File. It refers to the Perrott immigrant of 1623 previously identified by me, as married to Prunella. Robert his son, then has son Lawrence, which leads to Lee Parrott of 1960's. This the same family I tried to describe in the muddle of my father's tesimony. The DNA is 24/25 and is therefore more than coincidental and certainly more than convergence. DCR 1948 Nebraska Rices

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Lawrence-Parrott...

Ms. Erica: There is now proof of a DNA match 24/25 with Lawrence Parrott 1660 of Virginia with John Rice of Dedham 1630. The father was named by Samuel G. Rice 1887 as being John Perratt II 1565 named son of Sir John Perrott by Oxford University at Grey's Inn 1580 at his admission there.

Further, the 1/2 brother of John Rice was named as Perrott ap Rice 1598 son of Margaret Mercer ap Rhys 1580. There is now a third leg of confirmation of a DNA trail of this man in the person R.F. Dudley of Florida who confirms his Haplogroup as I-1 matching John Rice of Dedham and Now we have confirmed a 24/25 match of I-1 Haplogroup of Lawrence Parrott of Virginia according to Family Tree DNA. At what point will the opposition yield? I can live with the designation UNPROVED father for now...but UNKNOWN leaves everyone in the dark and that is not the case.

DC Rice 1948

I do not understand how a 24/25 DNA match between Lawrence Perrott b 1660 in Virginia and John Rice b 1625 or so in England identifies a common father.

The Linkage between Lawrence Parrott and John Rice 1630 is Perrott ap Rice, fathered by John Perratt II 1565. This has been part of the testimony of 1978 since day one. Only 3 years ago I could not know about Lawrence or R. Dudley or Scarfone or how they linked together. Now the DNA + the testimony shows there is something to consider here. John Rice 1630 did not fall from the sky, linked to these other men by a man born in 1887. DCR

I am only asking about the DNA evidence you present. Can you answer it so a DNA beginner follows?

I will try. The best matches occur at 25 sites and higher. My results and John Rice vary by 1 net additional repeat of the genetic information where he shows 28 repeats on the only marker we differ at...I show 29 repeats at the same marker. Because we also have a paper trail to John Rice of Dedham from 1948 to Dedham my 1 marker difference is deemed an acceptable variation and Family Tree's Dr. Chandler told me personally we are a match. The father of John Rice is by oral tradition named as John Perratt II (1565). Various persons spell it differently but my father knew and made sure I knew how to spell it. There is no question now that John Perratt II who grew up with 1/2 brothers Sir James Perrott and William Perrot both respected Churchmen and leaders in the Puritan movement are named at Oxford Grey's Inn along with John Perrott,3rd son named by Oxford.
The DNA match extends now to Lawrence Perrott son of Robert Perrott son of John the Quaker. Lawrence has 2 sites variable among the first 25 markers of DNA. My father explained that Perrott ap Rice changed his name upon arriving in America and began life over, anew. He also said that he went to ITaly where he fathered a male line named SCARFONE, which I told everyone about 2years and more now. I have a 24/25 match with that family on Family Tree. Justin knows this but decided it was not in character for a Quaker to father a child and chose to disregard it. John Perrott the Quaker was a known trouble maker and wrote hundreds of tracts and pamphlets which I was told about but was not too clear about it when I started the hunt. The Clincher is there is also a brother 1/2 sister comingle at Phillps of Picton Castle where I have a 22/25 match all I-1 Haplogroup. Robert Phillips, ls listed as son of Phillips born 8 years before his brother, but did not inherit Picton. His younger brother did. My line leads back to this Phillips and I surmise it was this event with Sir John Perrott's daughter Anne Perrott Phillips that got him disenherited as I was told. The story lines up with History and Now DNA. I hope that helps you understand why I think we can rightly say: Not Proved rather than UNKNOWN. Kind Regards DCR

I am clear about the variation between you and John Rice of Dedham born about 1625 in England & your paper trail from him to you is very good.

I do not understand how a Lawrence Perrot b 1660 in Virginia is supposed to be related to you genetically.

Do you have a link to where you see his descendant's DNA?

Does the DNA project identify his father?

Yes, but not perfectly. Family Tree has Lawrence grouped with his downline progeny and I am in a seperate section because of a different last name. The history of Lawrence points to his being the son of Robert son of John Perrott the Quaker. So, I connect to Lawrence before Lawrence was born, & his children are down line paralell cousins who do not marry back into the Rice line, they connect to the PRUIT line and they are in the Family Tree of John Rice. Lawrence's family is in Virginia where the two John's disappear 1641, and start trading on the James River.

The DAvis and Floyd line also leads back to John Perratt II 1565. JG Floyd is a male down line descendent of John Reece Hughes and Necotowanasee, and said he would share his results when they come in. That's why it's important to investigate this properly and with professionals.

Perrott ap Rice is father of John Rice's mother, Margaret ap Rice 1618. He did not die, or else there would not bee matching blood in the Davis, & Floyd family's as early as 1650. So, All Im asking is that we change the status from Unknown to Unproved. That gives direction which is presently lacking for others to pick up or come forward with information.

I have no agenda except to show that the story I was given was true....otherwise I would not match Scarfone 24/25 as my father told me, or Phillips, or RM Dudley of Florida, Or Davis or Floyd. This is an opportunity, not a dead end as some have tried to paint it.

The variations on a FAST mutating bloodline which mine is or there would be no variation to my 6th ggf is evident in the cousin lines...that's why there are 1 & 2 step variations on 2 sites on 37 markers. There can be as many as 6 across 37 markers or 66 markers...and that's where I am seeking Family Tree advice. This man changed his entire life around as my father told me, and became a very different kind of man in America. A preaching QUAKER for goodness sakes and that's what the family became after the Puritan experience....You may recall that his wife in Tenby never re-married but did have 2 daughters after 1615 recorded in 1630 census. She had to receive support from her husband all those years while he did trade in Cornwall for Copper and cloth for the Native trade on the James River. That's the outline I am pursuing, I hope someone will look with me. Regards, and thankyou for listening. DCR

Sorry dates of daughters born were after 1640 in the 1660 census regarding Margaret ap Rice wife of Perrott ap Rice.

No.

You have not established that John Rice b abt 1625 and Lawrence Parrot b 1660 have a common ancestor within a thousand years.

Aliright, I have not established that but the Perrott Family tree DNA site Does connect Lawrence to Robert to John Perrott the Quaker in it's notation section and there is only 1 loci (2) step difference across the first 25 loci on Y, between John Rice of Dedham, and Lawrence Perrott of Va. They have established that. The calculation can be made easily enough by an expert which I am not. Someone other than myself should look.

I'll go to the manager of the Perrott family site and see if they see what I see. Thankyou.

Thanks Geni for giving me the sign in through my other account....I have invited a dozen or more of my "Friends" to Like the Geni page, and I see that some already have. One is a world class contemporary artist and is very interested in the work you are doing for General Public.

Anyone truly interested in finding the TRUTH, can do so here by following the connecting family lines to the cousins they had not heard or known of before. That's one reason GENI is powerful a tool. We all thank you and you must believe that our Gratitude is unbounded. DCR 1948

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