Edward Southworth - Lineage Questions

This original letter telling a terrifying account of its shortened trip is now in the possession of the Mayflower Society. Thomas’ brother, Edward, died early, but Edward’s widow, Alice Carpenter, moved to Plymouth Colony to marry the famous William Brewster after his first wife drowned. Alice’s sons, Constant and Thomas Southworth, and his brother, William, came to Plymouth a few years later and notably established themselves in history.

So I "believe" the question is -

"Is Edward the sayweaver of Leiden truly a younger son of Thomas & Rosamund of Samlesbury"

Until we address that there is no point in working through the pedigree (except as an academic exercise).

So - how is that approached?

Who are the Thomas & William referred to in the letter quoted?

Geni link to the profiles appreciated.

Don't know still looking at it

Here's more fire

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=doris...

http://www.pilgrimhallmuseum.org/alice_carpenter_bradford.htm

William Bradford, Governor of Plymouth Colony, http://www.pilgrimhallmuseum.org/alice_carpenter_bradford.htm

Lady Rosamond Southworth

I am not sure of anything on this southworth line and I want to thank Private User for bringing it up.. The ancestry thread might be some what off on her ideas but she raises valid points by brining it up and i wouldn't be so quick as to dismiss it as she mentions a known frauster

I do know that the document i posted on edward southworth came from a copy of one that is in the pocession of the new york public library Erica Howton and it's from a member of the mayflower socitity and it may be from the early 1980's and may have changed. Perhaps if one could go and get the orginal from them?

Here is the lineage that Gary Boyd Roberts shows in "The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies or the United Staes", 2008
Edward I
Elizabeth of Rhuddlan 1301
William de Bohem , 1st Earl of Northhampton 1328
Elizabeth de Bohun, Contess of Arundel 1350
Elizabeth FitzAlan, Duchess of Norfolk 1385
Joan Goushill, Baroness of Stanley 1401
Margaret Stanley 1436
Sir Thomas Boteler Bewsey
Margery Boteler, of Bewsey 1500
Sir John Southworth, MP , of Skamlesbury 1526
Sir Thomas Southworth 1548
Edward Southworth 1590
Ens Constant Southworth 1615
Thomas Southworth,
Elizabeth Southworth.

He may be wrong, but unless we have some authoritative debunking, I think we should stand with this.

(I should say that the dates I've put up aren't Gary's, but mine or Geni's.

Sandra Jane Larson thank you for your work. Can you validate the Southworth lineage in Geni against the Gary Boyd Roberts list?

Sure, how do you want be to do it. Here is the Southworth line (the section that he shows)
Sir John Southworth, MP , of Skamlesbury m Mary(Asheton) Southworth, of Offerton
Sir Thomas Southworth m Rosamond (Lister)Southworth
Edward Southworth m Alice Bradford
Ens Constant Southworth m Elizabeth (Collier)Southworth
Mercy (Southworth) Freeman m Deacon Samuel Freeman Jr.

this follows Geni I do believe.

Actually Mercy Southworth isn't on it--stops at Constant

Right - a check to see if Boyd & the Geni tree agree. If there's a discrepancy, post the link in this discussion. Go all the way upa,

I will work on this after holidays-Happy Thanksgiving Erica.

Erica,

Thomas Southworth and Rosamund Lister did have a son, Edward. But Thomas was a moderate Catholic, who threatened to disinherit his eldest son, John, for turning Protestant (presumably after marrying Jane Sherborne, an illegitimate daughter of the Sherbornes of Stonyhurst - their home is even now a Catholic "public" -i.e. private - school). Leiden was a fiercely Protestant area. Most Englishmen who went there did so to go to the (Protestant) University, just as people who went to Padua tended to be Catholics. Although Edward turned out to be a "sayworker", whatever the hell that might be, he seems to have had enough independent means to travel to England to be a member of the committee for the "Mayflower" voyage, and I suspect he had been to Leyden University.

If he was at Leyden University he would have had to be financed by his father. Almost impossible for even a moderately Catholic father to do, if he threatened his first son with disinheritance for conforming to the Church of England. (And probably impossible financially; the Edward Southworth who was the son of Thomas and Rosamund was, apparently the sixth son).

It ain't proven; it seems rather unlikely; there is an alternative line of descent. And there don't seem to be any male-line descendants of the Southworths of Samlesbury to question it. Perfect for fake genealogy.

I'd cut him loose, with whatever preventions can be made to avoid a reconnection.

Mark

Woodman Mark Lowes Dickinson, OBE Private User Erica Howton i respectfully disagree.. I have checked with http://www.magnacharta.com/bomc/bomc-gateway-ancestors/ and http://www.charlemagne.org/ and they both verified this as correct..
I do not know what they claim as proof and because I don't have the cash on hand right now to poney up for entry i can not get proof from them.

Michael, Sandra, etc - read this page

http://books.google.com/books?id=3F9nG8aFJ7MC&lpg=PA164&ots...

Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who Came to America Before 1700: Lineages from Alfred the Great, Charlemagne, Malcolm of Scotland, Robert the Strong, and Other Historical Individuals (Google eBook)

Frederick Lewis Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Kaleen E. Beall
Genealogical Publishing Com, 2004 - Reference - 359 pages

Page 13-14

"Edward of Leyden may or may not be the same man as Edward of London ... See Robert L. French, The Mayflower Quarterly 88 (1992), page 10-15"

Erica Howton I got a reply back from the magna carta people and i have enclosed a document for you guys to look at detailing with proofs line from him back to henry de-behourn.. I have not had time to flesh out all the proof doucments in the pdf however.

Michael.

We're actually only concerned about ONE (group of records) - any proof that "Edward of London" is the same person as "Edward of Leyden."

If there were primary records to establish the relationship they would have been well presented. I believe there is a marriage record (?) / indication that Edward Southworth, who worked making cloth (a weaver) in Leyden, married a woman who "also" married a prominent religious dissenter (after Edward's death).

This already says that we have a problem affirming Edward of Leyden is from a known Catholic family. He seems to have been a Dissenter (Protestant) in a Protestant community.

So we have a bad logic problem at best. The other English dissenters in Leyden with him were often enough several generations of Dissenters. Read about William Brewster, for example. It becomes clear enough that his ancestors were also on the more free thinking side of the religious debates.

And Edward's putative father was not.

That doesn't rule him out entirely but certainly raises my eyebrow, and I would think yours.

yes it does.. and there is much i do not know about this family

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/l/o/n/Alison-Longstaff-O...

From "A Genealogy of the Southworths (Southards), Descendants of Constant Southworth, with a Sketch of the Family in England," by Samuel G. Webber, A.B., M.D., p. 1: "As yet the old archives have given us very little information in regard to Edward Southworth. He was a silk worker in Leyden, one of the Pilgrim exiles who formed Rev. John Robinson's church. He is recorded as from England, without mention of town or city. On 4 Nov., 1611, he was groomsman or witness at the marriage of Isaac Allerton with Mary Norris. Again, 30 April, 1613, he served in the same capacity for his friend Samuel Fuller at his marriage with Agnes Carpenter, and at this wedding Alice Carpenter was one of the witnesses for her sister Agnes....At his own wedding in 1613 his brother Thomas was one of his witnesses."

From "A Genealogy of the Southworths (Southards), Descendants of Constant Southworth, with a Sketch of the Family in England," by Samuel G. Webber, A.B., M.D., p. 2:

"Copy of the record at Leyden of the marriage of Edward Southworth.

Raadhuis-inteekenregister
lr. B. Fo. 21
Datum: 4. Mei, 1613
Naam en Voornam: Eduwaert Sodtwaert.
Geboorteplaats: Engelant.
Jongman
Beroep of betrekking: Saeijwercker.
geassisteerd met: Tomas Sodtwaert z. br. Samuel Fuller z. zwager en Rogier Wilson z. bek.
onderstrouwd met
naam en voornam: Els Carpenter
Geboorteplaats: Engelant.
Jonge dochter
geassisteerd met: Anna Ras en Elizabeth Gennings n. bekenden.
getrouwd: 28. Mei, 1613.

"These few items are all that is given in regard to the life of Edward Southworth in Leyden by the records so far published. Governor Bradford has preserved for us the only other document relating to him, -- a letter written by his friend, Robert Cushman, from Dartmouth, England, when the 'Mayflower' and 'Speedwell' put in there on account of the unseaworthy condition of the latter....

"That such a man as Robert Cushman could so unburden himself to Edward Southworth reveals to us the lovely character of this 'loving friend,' as Cushman calls him. The fact that he gives him permission to make what use of the letter he thinks best, 'revealing part, or concealing the whole,' shows also Cushman's confidence in Southworth's discretion, good judgment, and his power to keep a secret. No one could write such a letter to one whom he did not believe worthy of confidence."

And this continues the argument Dr Webber made:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VllVAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA423&ots... page 424

The parentage of Edward Southworth, who was at Leyden in 161113, is not known with absolute certainty; that is, no documentary evidence has, as yet, been discovered to prove who was his father. Certain facts and conditions lead to a reasonable conclusion that he was the son of Thomas Southworth of Samlesbury.

A tradition existed that Alice Carpenter's father objected to her marriage with the young man Bradford, and preferred Edward Southworth because the latter was of much better family, so would be a better match [84, p. 116]. There was also a general belief and tradition that the family in Europe was a knightly family. ...

Another pair of brothers, Edward and Thomas, is found in tho Samlesbury family, whose history has been given above. They were of age to fill the requirements necessary in the Edward who married Alice Carpenter.
Sir John South worth, who made his will in 1595, names in the order of their birth, his seven grandsons, children of Thomas, his eldest son. They were John, Thomas, William, Richard, Michael, Christopher, Edward. Thomas, the father, was the first Protestant in the family. The persecution of their grandfather would not be likely to give rise to very favorable feelings towards the Established Church. The resources of the estate were severely taxed by the fines and other expenses attending the prosecution of the grandfather. Edward, a seventh son, would not be likely to have a very large share in the income from what remained available. He and his five younger brothers were to receive an annuity of twenty nobles each during their natural lives,— between six and seven pounds. One need not be surprised at his leaving home.

There is one clew to the identity of Edward Southworth, of Leyden, which throws considerable light on his origin. While the Pilgrims were at Dartmouth, England, having put in there on account of the unseaworthy condition of the "Speedwell," Robert Cushman wrote a letter to his friend, Edward Southworth, which is quoted on page 2. This letter was addressed to Edward Southworth, at Henige House, in the Dukes Place, London. ...

It will be remembered that Sir Francis Walsingham took an interest in the welfare of Thomas Southworth, when there was fear lest Sir John should disinherit his eldest son. While Sir John was in London his son Thomas was with him; he pleaded for him during his imprisonment in the Fleet; he sought to lighten the persecution of his father. Sir Francis, to whom he must have applied, lived across the street from the Heneage House, in the house which one time belonged to James Lancaster, on the three streets, Berry Street, Bevis Marks, and St. Mary Axe. It would not be singular if Thomas Southworth had known Sir Thomas Heneage, and, considering the standing and wealth of the Southworth family, should have been entertained by him. It would, then, be perfectly natural that Edward Southworth should stop at the Heneage House when he was in London.
The knowledge that one of the Leyden Pilgrims came from the immediate vicinity of Samlesbury, and that his family had for many years been neighbors and friends of the Samlesbury Southworths, would add much to the probability that the Pilgrim Edward Southworth was from that family.
All the estates mentioned in the will of Myles Standish as belonging to his family were within eight to twenty miles of Samlesbury.
It is not improbable that Myles Standish, Edward and Thomas Southworth were friends and so together joined the Pilgrim band.
Is it not singular that in a family of the limited size of the Southworth, for it could not have been a very large family, there should have been three pairs of brothers with names Thomas and Edward, living at about the same time? It is extremely improbable that a fourth pair with those names should have been living at that time. I think we may conclude that we have an exhaustive knowledge of all the Thomas and Edward Southworths who were contemporary with Alice Carpenter. If this is true, the probability is so great as to amount almost to .a certainty that the Edward Southworth of Samlesbury was the father of the Southworths who came to Plymouth.

So the "only" inquiry I can easily find on this is dated 1905.

A Genealogy of the Southworths (Southards) Descendants of Constant Southworth: With a Sketch of the Family in England (Google eBook)

Samuel Gilbert Webber
Fort Hill Press, 1905 - Families of royal descent - 487 pages

http://cybergata.com/roots/308.htm

• Dates & Events. 154
Edward southworth was a silk worker in Leyden, one of the Pilgrim exiles who formed Reverend John Robbin's church, On 4 Nov 1611, he was groomsman or witness at the marriage of Isaac Allerton and mary Norris. On 30 Apr 1618, he was again a witness for his friend Samuel Fuller's marriage to agnes carpenter.

Edward moved back to London and lived at the Henige/Heneage House in the Duke Place. Governor William Brandford kept a letter from a Robert Cushman to Edward dated 17 Aug 1620 living at that location. The letter discusses Edward's plan of making a journey to the Americas. Edward never made this journey.

A Genealogy of the Southworths (Southards)..., author Samuel G. Webber uses the location and ownership of the Heneage House as on proof of the connection between the American Southworths and Samleson Southworths. A man named Francis Walsingham took an interest in the welfare of Thomas Southworth when there was fear that Sir John might disinherit his eldest son after Thomas became a protestant. Sir Francis Walsingham had lived across from the Henage House.

Webber also compared the ages and dates of the few Edward/Thomas Southworths living at the time of Edwards marriage to Alice Carpenter, age 16 at the time of marriage. He concludes that the only the Edward Southworth, son of Thomas Southworth and grandson of Sir John Southworth, was of the correct age to marry Alice Carpenter. He further states that there had been a family legend about a previous interest of Governor William Bandford in marrying Alice Carpenter, but Alice's father refusing because Bradford's status was below Alice's. The son of Thomas and grandson of Sir John would be of similar status.

Webber's last argument is that the pilgrim friend of Edward and Thomas Southworth, Myles Standish, lived within eight miles of the Samleson Southworths. He concludes his book, A Genealogy of the Southworths (Southards)..., by giving Constant's and Edward's ancestry as the one I have used here.

~A Genealogy of the Southworths (Southards)... , Chapter Five, Southworths in England pgs. 401-438

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jstev...

"It seems that I read somewhere that the the arms that were supposedly brough from Europe by Alice was later determined to be a hoax."

NOTTINGHAM ORIGIN OF THE SOUTHWORTH FAMILY OF AMERICA: as given by Colonel Chas. E. Banks: A REFUTATION by Mrs. Mary J. Sibley, Ph.D., 101 University Place, Syracuse, New York.

In the Boston transcript, February 25, 1932, the Nottingham version of the Southworths of Leyden, Holland and New England, by Burgess, was given in the transcript April 27, 1932, I cited some of the discrepancies in the Burgess theory. Burgess believed that Hunter "Founders of New Plymouth" 1849 had proved the puritanism of the Southworth family of Wellam, Notts, to which Edward of Fenton belonged, which is fully proved by Burgess, but he did not know that Hunter had confused two Robert Southworths (both of Notts) and so had not proved the religion of the Wellam Branch.

"... I called attention to the colorings of their (Notts) coat-of-arms, which was not the same as that brought to America by Alice Southworth, widow of Edward of Leyden, Holland. I showed that Burgess had not proved the Edward Southworth of Wellam was a firm and fast friend of John Robinson, pastor of the Pilgrims. They may have been, if ages given by Burgess were wrong, but he Burgess did not give anything to prove it. What he Burgess did give proof concerning, was the Pilgrim pastor's father knew Edward of Wellam's guardian, John Thornhagh, Sr. of Fenton and had served witness with said Edward's brother, Thomas. ..."

From http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1997-03/...

Boston Transcript, November 11, 1939

Notes

SOUTHWORTH ARMS

Comment on Note 29986. January 27, 1938. Under the above caption this
department gave an extract from the introduction to the Second Roll of Arms, by the Committee on Heraldry as printed in New England Historical and Genealogical Register for July, 1932.

Interested members of the Southworth family could not accept three premises therein as:

(1) That decent of Edward Southworth of Leyden, Holland from the
Samlesbury, Lancashire, Southworth "seemed very improbable."

(2) If the coat in the embroidery (Edward's, at Plymouth, Massachusetts)
was the coat of the Lancashire family, it was differenced to a most extraordinary extent."

(3) That the embroidery furnished strong evidence that the relationship of
American Southworths and the Lancashire family "was very remote."

The committee on Heraldry took up the case anew and in the current (October) Register, Page 395, "THE SOUTHWORTH ARMS - A CORRECTION.

In the "Introduction" to the Second Roll of the Arms of the Society's
Committee on Heraldry, Register, Volume 86 pages 258 ff, certain statements in regard to the Southworth arms were made which it now seems, in the light of certain facts brought to the attention of the committee, by members of the Southworth family, should be modified or corrected.

From http://dgmgenealogy.info/HowlandDescendants/ps05/ps05_205.htm

"• The identity of Edward Southworth of Leyden is shown to be the same as Edward Southworth of Samlesbury, the son of Thomas and Rosamond (Lister) Southworth"

Source: 759. The Ancestry of Ensign Constant and Captain Thomas Southworth of Plymouth and Duxbury, Massachusetts, by Frederick Lewis Weis, Th. D., F.A.S.G., Dublin, New Hampshire, 1958, Southworth (JPEG).

Page uploaded here

http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000029823826103

I'm impressed there was progress between 1905 & 1958. :). I dont know what Caleb Johnson (expert on the Mayflowers) or The Great Migration project might have.