Margaret Ann Gardiner (Grey) - can someone please help

Margaret Grey Click to preview: Margaret Grey, b. 1485, , Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location, d. Yes, date unknown
+ 2. Elizabeth Grey, Viscountess of Shandoyes Click to preview: Elizabeth Grey, Viscountess of Shandoyes, b. Abt 1492, of, Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location, d. 29 Dec 1559, London, , Greater London, England Find all individuals with events at this location (Age ~ 67 years)
3. Sir. George Grey, Baron Click to preview: Sir. George Grey, Baron, b. 1494, of, Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location, d. Bef 1517, of, Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location (Age 23 years)
4. Tacy Grey Click to preview: Tacy Grey, b. Abt 1496, of, Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location, bur. 14 Nov 1558, , Elmore, Gloucester, England Find all individuals with events at this location (Age ~ 62 years)
5. Sir. Thomas Grey, Baron Click to preview: Sir. Thomas Grey, Baron, b. 1497, of, Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location, d. 3 Oct 1517, of, Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location (Age 20 years)
6. Sir. Richard Grey, Baron Click to preview: Sir. Richard Grey, Baron, b. May 1505, of, Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location, d. 15 Oct 1521, of, Wilton on Wye, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location (Age ~ 16 years)
7. Sir. William Grey, Baron Click to preview: Sir. William Grey, Baron, b. 1509, of, Wilton Castle, Hereford, England Find all individuals with events at this location, d. 15 Dec 1562, , Cheshunt, Hertford, England Find all individuals with events at this location (Age 53 years)
http://www.ourfamilyhistories.org/getperson.php?personID=I53860&amp...

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Tacy (Tase) Grey b: ABT 1490
Elizabeth Grey of Wilton b: ABT 1496
Sir William Grey Baron Grey of Wilton b: 1509

Richardson, Douglas (2011) Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 2nd Ed., Vol. III. pp. 500-501
14. Edmund Grey, Knt., 9th Lord Grey of Wilton, of Wilton, Herefordshire, Vaches (in Shenley) and Water Eaton (in Bletchley) Buckinghamshire, and London, Toseland and Yelling, Huntingdonshire, 2nd and eldest surviving son and heir by his father's 1st marriage, born about 1469 (aged 30 in 1499). He married before 1495 Florence Hastings, 1st daughter and co-heiress of Ralph Hastings, Knt., of Harrowden, Northamptonshire, Wanstead, Essex, etc., Keeper of the Lions and Leopards in the Tower, King's Esquire, sheriff of Northamptonshire, Knight of the Shire for Northamptonshire, Lieutenant of Guines, Knight of the Body, Captain of Calais (descendant of King Henry II), by Amy, daughter and co-heiress of John Tattershall. They had four sons, George [10th Lord Grey of Wilton], Thomas [11th Lord Grey of Wilton], Richard [12th Lord Grey of Wilton], and William, K.G. [13th Lord Grey of Wilton], and two daughters, Elizabeth (wife of John Brydges, 1st Lord Chandos) and Barbara (nun at Elstow Abbey). In the period, 1493-1500, he and John Longevyle [Longueville], Knt., sued William Manewer in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to the manor of Woolrich, Kent/ In the period, 1493-1500, Edmund, Lord Grey of Wilton, and Florence his wife, John and Margery Pole, John Longvile, Knt., and Elizabeth his wife, John Dyve and Isabel his wife, William Norwiche and Katherine his wife, and Amy, daughters and heirs of Amy, late the wife of

http://powys.org/pl_tree/ps16/ps16_409.html
1 Florence Hastings [59, Grey of Wilton art, Vol VI, p. 171 seq], [72, Wilton art., p. 376.], [59, Chandos article, Vol III, p. 126], Half 6C18R
Death aft 1511
General Eldest dau and co-heir.
Father Sir Ralph Hastings (-ca1495)
Mother Amy Tattershall
Children George (-1514)
Thomas (-1517)
Richard (-<1523)
William (-1562)
Tacy (ca1495-<1558)
Elizabeth (-1559)
Will Notes for Edmund Grey Lord Grey of Wilton
In his will, dated 5th May 1511, he lists:
Florence his wife.

http://www.cyberancestors.com/cummins/ps114/ps114_123.htm
Edmund Grey, 9th Lord Grey (of Wilton) was born circa 1469. He was the son of John Grey, 8th Lord Grey (of Wilton) and Lady Anne Grey. He married Florence Hastinges, daughter of Sir Ralph Hastinges, before May 1505. He died on 5 May 1511.
Edmund Grey, 9th Lord Grey (of Wilton) succeeded to the title of 9th Lord Grey, of Wilton on 3 April 1499.
Children of Edmund Grey, 9th Lord Grey (of Wilton) and Florence Hastinges
Elizabeth Grey+ d. 29 Dec 1559
George Grey, 10th Lord Grey (of Wilton) b. c 1493, d. b 15 Jan 1514/15
Thomas Grey, 11th Lord Grey (of Wilton) b. c 1496, d. 30 Oct 1517
Richard Grey, 12th Lord Grey (of Wilton) b. c 1505, d. b 14 Oct 1523
Sir William Grey, 13th Lord Grey (of Wilton)+ b. c 1509, d. bt 14 Dec 1562 - 15 Dec 1562

there is barely any listing of her and most sites used for looking up family don't show her.. so can someone help out or I am right and she is not daughter of Edmund Grey and wife to Bishop Stephen Gardiner?
@Carole (Erickson) Pomeroy, Vol. Curator

Carole (Erickson) Pomeroy,Vol. Curator
Erica Howton

Tina

You're right, this is not looking accurate.

From the notes in the profile for Sir Edmund Grey, 9th Baron Grey de Wilton

He & his wife Florence Hastings had 2 daughters

1. Elizabeth, wife of John Brydges, 1st Lord Chandos (profile looks OK) & 2. Barbara, a nun at Elstow Abbey

No daughter Margaret Ann (Grey) Gardiner

I've gone ahead and disconnected Margaret Gardiner from these parents

To find her correct ones, let's look for the wife of Stephen Gardiner, Bishop of Winchester, Lord Chancellor

Tina this whole Gardiner tree is looking spurious I'm afraid.

Margaret Neville, Countess of Rutland shows as married to Cuthbert Gardiner ("son" of the Bishop & Margaret Ann Grey)

However she predeceased her husband Henry Manners 2nd Earl of Rutland whom she married as a child according to http://www.kateemersonhistoricals.com/TudorWomenN.htm

So I've disconnected her from this husband

The source of the Margaret Grey descent seems to be here

http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/GREY2.htm#Margaret%20GREY1

So far it's not panning out at all.

For instance, I find no indication the Lord Chancellor married at all.

Do I need to rewatch the BBC series "The Tudors" to find out? :):)

So - I'm working from "bottom up."

Tina -

Is this the immigrant ancestor you are chasing?

Thomas Gardner, "Old Planter"

My previous notes (including the apparently disregarded curator note)

Is that parents are UNKNOWN.

I am disconnecting, making place holder "unknown" parents, and request that proof be submitted to reconnect.

Thank you for handling this Erica!

Dorothy Constable showed as married to George Gardiner, Dean of Norwich

But his wife and mother of his children seems to have been Cecily Tollemache

So I have disconnected

And - here's a reason why it's so hard to "correctly" source

http://toncxjo.tripod.com/tudor01.html
"Descendants of Owain ap Maredudd ap Tudur"

(sob)

I see a John Grey, married Florence Hastings, daughter Margaret, married Stephen Gardiner.

There might be some pieces of this that are true.

I see no reason to believe Stephen Gardiner, Bishop of Winchester, Lord Chancellor ever married or had children.

According to http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/stephen_gardner.htm he was a lifelong practicing Catholic.

In addition, the Gardiner family associated with a woman named Ann Grey is from Lancashire; and the Lord Chancellor:

"He was born in Bury St Edmunds, (Suffolk???) but the date of his birth is suspect. His father is known to have been William Gardner (knight), a substantial cloth merchant of the town where he was born, ..."

There are issues with his parents also -- see the notes in the profile for Sir William Gardiner

But perhaps Carole (Erickson) Pomeroy,Vol. Curator might want to take that on?

Here's a "new" Unknown Profile

If someone can present proof that he is the same as the Lord Chancellor we can easily merge. Until then, let them be separate, in my opinion (and more opinions are more than welcome ....)

Ok tina quay

Here's your revised Margaret Gardiner

I've taken her as far as I can for now. I was running into "yet more and different" fantasy royalty lines.

The Gardiners would be the ones to pursue for some more realistic pedigrees, perhaps -- "if" you're not trying to find unknown puritan ship master parents, that is ...

thank you Erica Howton.. i looked at many sites and could not find Stephen Gardiner, Bishop of Winchester, Lord Chancellor married or anything,, i don't like many problems or more work for people but when ye start looking at family and can not see to match them to people others have them listed to on sites then sometimes you got to.. thank you again for the help..

Tina - the cleanup needed to be done, I'm very glad you called attention. I'm more shaking my head at the impossibilities I've found (and there's more to come).

I have been trying to start a new 'Discussion' about the references which list Stephen Gardiner, Bishop of Winchester, Lord Chancellor as son of John Gardiner instead of Helen Tudor & William Gardiner but I keep getting "An unexpected error has occurred." from his profile, Helen Tudor, & William Gardiner, Knight.

I will keep trying.

I'm afraid this is what happens if people are only concerned with "genealogy" (i.e. repeating what they find on websites and connecting them with their descent) and are not curious about historical or geographical context. You would have thought that if someone thought they were descended from one of the leading (if highly unattractive) figures of the sixteenth century, they might take a few minutes to find out about him.

A "lifelong practising Catholic", Erica? I have no doubt that his private views were always Catholic, and that he disapproved of the Reformation (partly because of his dislike/enmity/jealousy of Thomas Cromwell), but he abandoned Cardinal Wolseley without a moment's hesitation, stayed on as Bishop of Westminster under Henry VIII all the same, signed up to the succession pledge which cut out Mary (unlike Sir Thomas More, who was also a lot less pleasant than his popular image suggests). A "lifelong practising careerist" seems to me to best describe him. But I don't see any evidence that he ever had any interest in women.

Mark

We don't hate him as much in America nowadays as apparently "the ever mendacious Foxe" did. :)

Whatever are the Tudor rumors in his ancestry about?

him nor cardinal wolseley are very much liked nor have they been that i know of and i still can not find any where that he was married to anyone for he kept to his work... thank you again for the help and if i find any others that seem off I will call attention to them..i am always interested in trying to find out about my family and go through many sites and such to make sure i can proof that they belong with who people seem to think they do.. would love to travel to find out more but sadly, stuck at home doing work from here..

I feel very much the same, Tina.

And what's nice about being "an armchair detective" is that to solve it, you do have to do what Mark talked about -- look into the historic and social context of the "ancestor."

And that's what makes history come alive, even if the profile turns out not to be your ancestor.

Keep them coming.

I think there may be something in the rumours that he was related to the Tudors, even if it may be a fairly remote and disputable connection. If I remember correctly (my son has not returned the book to me) Hilary Mantel's novel "Wolf Hall" has at its beginning some alleged family trees which I think show the relationship; and - although it is a novel - she did have some very good Tudor historians to go over the draft to remove any provable or probable nonsenses. The problem with alleged relationships with the "Tudors" is the same as with most Welsh genealogy pre-16th (or even 17th) century: they did not adopt a family name - and weren't all that prominent until shortly before Henry VII - so you have even fairly well accepted descents whose truth is more then usually difficult to judge. In fact the difficulties are so great that most of us (including me) would do almost anything not to go through the torture of trying to resolve them.

Mark

Well, perhaps there's a relationship between William Gardiner who married Helen Tudor and John Gardiner, cloth maker. That "could" be easier to find if digging for wills.

Coming to this late and reading through discussions to get a feel for what opinions are and have to say I had the thought that you expressed Erica that there may be a connection with the Gardiners - hence the confusion as we have cloth Maker/dealer and Leather workers and my experience is that occupations are often followed by families. Have to find more evidence though and their Wills are the obvious hope.

I would say that this Stephen Gardiner could be the same person as:
Stephen Gardiner, Bishop of Winchester, Lord Chancellor

The date of death of this Stephen is almost certainly incorrect as it's the same as Stephen Gardiner Bishop of Winchester but I think all seem to be agreed he is NOT the Bishop.
However
His wife is Mary Grey d/o Edmund Grey
not Margaret d/o John Grey

They both have sons George.
I wonder if some 'ordinary' commoners named Gardiner and Grey are getting into the mix somehow. What a tangled web!

We may find the places mentioned of help as they are geographically diverse!

I believe I was incorrect that Cecily Tollemache was the wife of George Gardiner, D.D. Looks like she was Dorothy Constable

More documentation needed before surgery.

So far I only have Wiki

Gardiner was married to Dorothy Constable (abt 1536 - abt 1589) around the year 1564. He had at least two children with her:

Sir Thomas Gardiner (abt 1565 - abt 1635) who married Elizabeth White and had issue.

Lionel Gardiner (abt 1573 - abt 1610) who married Elizabeth Woodhouse and had issue.

----

DNB says he was married and had at least 4 children

Note that Robert Constable (1531-1591) who m.1 (after Oct 1536) Dorothy Gascoigne and m.2 (1553 or later) Dorothy Widdrington, widow of Roger Fenwick (d. btw 1550/3) of Fenwick and Wallington in Northumberland, had no kids with first wife. His child with Widdrington is Robert (d. 1600).

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gardiner-274

Margaret Gardiner. Still has two Gardiner children attached although we had disconnected her previously

I have found the same as you. I'm trying to find some primary documentation for the family. Not having much luck so far.

I doubt Cuthbert Gardiner was a son of Stephen Gardiner

Stephen was from Suffolk and George was from Lancashire. Two different places with the name Bury getting mixed up.

Disconnected Thomas Gardner, of Little Bourton And merged his Neville mother into her tree, also disconnected George Gent from Stephen Bishop. I think we might need to relationship lock this tree when sorted. Too many Gardiners / Gardners chasing false clues.

Agree.

Back in 2009 a researcher named Kyle Moore looked at the book of Stephen Gardiner's letters (quite a large book) and found that there was no mention of a wife or children at all.

Furthermore, amongst the records of Gonville and Caius College, which was where George and German Gardiner attended...German's college record says he was "of Berwick on tweed. Son of Cuthbert Gardiner, gent. Age 21"

See: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&amp;m=947&amp...

From http://venn.lib.cam.ac.uk/ - Cambridge Alumni Database:

German GARDINER
Adm. (age 21) at CAIUS, 14 Nov., 1561.
S. of Cuthbert, gent.
Of Berwick-on-Tweed [ Northumberland ].
School, Durham [ Co. Durham ].
R. of Thorpe, Norfolk , 1569-86 .
R. of Kirby Kane [Kirby Cane] [ Norfolk ], 1570-1 .
R. of St Simon and St Jude, Norwich [ Norfolk ], 1579-82 .
R. of Beighton, Suffolk , 1583 .
V. of Eglingham, Northumberland , 1587-90 .
Brother of George (1552).
( Venn, I. 47.)

George GARDINER
Matric. pens. from CHRIST'S, Michs. 1552.
S. of George (Cuthbert). B. at Berwick-on-Tweed [ Northumberland ].
B.A. 1554/5 ;
M.A. from Queens', 1558 ;
B.D. 1565 ;
D.D. 1569 .
Fellow of Queens', 1557-61 .
Ord. priest (London) Mar., 1557/8.
Chancellor of diocese of Norwich [ Norfolk ], 1558-79 .
Preb. of Norwich [ Norfolk ], 1565 ; Archdeacon, 1573 ; Dean, 1573 .
R. of West Stow, Suffolk , 1566-72 .
R. of St Martin, Outwich, London , 1572-4 .
R. of St Michael, Bassishaw [ London ], 1572 .
Chaplain to the Queen, 1573 .
V. of Swaffham, Norfolk , 1575 .
R. of Badingham, Suffolk , 1575-6 .
R. of Heylesdon, Norfolk , 1579 .
R. of Blofield [ Norfolk ], 1580 .
R. of Ashill [ Norfolk ], 1583 .
R. of Forncet [ Norfolk ], 1584 .
Admon. (Norwich Cons. C. [ Norfolk ]) 1589 .
Buried in Norwich Cathedral [ Norfolk ].
Brother of German (1561).
( Cooper, II. 55; D.N.B. )

There was a Cuthbert Gardiner of Berwick-on-Tweed, merchant living 1551-1553

See: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7499910

He is most likely the father of George and German.