Heluna Princess of England Blaeja (Ellusdatter) - Heluna Princess of England Blaeja (Ellusdatter)

Started by Sue Cevasco on Sunday, June 29, 2014
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Can you tell me how you found if this this person and/or her spouse and parents,and beyond really existed? I've seen info elsewhere that warns that these people may not have really existed, and I see some info that may confuse them with Norse mythological characters. Before I add them to my tree, I'd like to be able to verify they were real. Thanks.

She shows on Geni as the wife of Sigurd "Snake-in-the-eye" Ragnarsson

So those who are looking into the Sagas about him are especially appreciated to discuss what is known.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand is this something you would be interested at looking into?

Sue Cevasco the source for these people are a couple of Icelandic sagas, committed to parchment between 1100 and 1300.

You'll find some of the information linked from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd_Snake-in-the-Eye

The main source is the saga called "Ragnarsona þattr" (the story of Ragnar's sons).

This is from a very different time than our current widely-recorded era; there are hardly any contemporary written records from the Nordic countries from this time. There are some from England, so we have more sources for the existence of Heluna's father - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86lla_of_Northumbria (I'm not recommending Wikipedia as facts, but Wikipedia gives good pointers to the original sources).

These lineages are very well preserved in the various traditional genealogies of English royalty, so they're well known in a sense - but the primary evidence for them is quite thin, as you can see.

I'm trying to make sure that what's on Geni contains appropriate references to sources, so that people can learn what we're building these histories upon - but we can't say more than "this is the evidence we have" - and as you see above, the evidence isn't what you'd call "very strong".

At some points, we're certain the stories contain mythological elements - not much in this particular saga - but there's no clear dividing line between the histories, the sagas and the legends. They all blur.

Sue,

This person showed up, while searching my fathers branch. Somewhere on the line it links French royals to Scandinavian royals. (Adelinde of Normandy and down). I used the input of other geni users and merged existing trees. Maybe you should inquire other profile keepers to find the answer. Under you see my connection with this person, she is my second cousin 41 times removed's wife (if all is correct). used publication of the university of Gent, to search this branch and during that i was able to link to that branch. Hope this answers your question.

You


Jan Nagelkerke
your father

show 44 relatives →

Neeltje Blok
his mother

Jannetje van de Sande
her mother

Jeroen van de Sande
her father

Jannetje de Visser
his mother

Alberdina Tack
her mother

Isaac Tack
her father

Jannis Tack
his father

Adriaentje Centsen
his mother

Suzanna Aux Brebis
her mother

Nicolass Aux Brebis
her father

Michel Aux Brebis
his father

Jean Aux-Brebis
his father

Francois Aux Brebis
his father

Marie de Warisoulx
his mother

Jehanne de Warisoulx
her mother

Baudouin Tinlefer de Broesberghe
her father

Agnes de Blehen
his mother

Baudouin de Blehen
her father

Marie d' Abee
his mother

Lambert d' Abee
her father

Renart d' Abee
his father

Lambert (le jeune) d' Abee
his father

Renart d' Abee
his father

Lambert de Neufchatel
his father

Eustache (Persant=de pers) de Dammartin de Warfusee de Haneffe
his father

Othon de Dammartin de Warfusee de Haneffe
his father

Libert Sureal de Dammartin
his father

Alide (Alix) van Donmartin
his mother

Pierre Awans, Fooz, Jeneffe, Lexhy, Lomont en Waroux) van Donmartin
her father

Hugues I van Donmartin
his father

Eudes I de Dammartin
his father

Constance Princess Of de Dammartin, Heiress of Dammartin
his mother

Robert II le Pieux, roi des Francs
her father

Adélaïde d'Aquitaine, reine des Francs
his mother

Adelene of Normandy
her mother

Gange-Hrólfr 'Rollo' Ragnvaldsson de Normandie
her father

Ragnvald Eysteinsson, Mørejarl
his father

Ásdís (Ascrida) Ragnvaldsdóttir
his mother

Ragnvald "Heidumhære" Óláfsson, King of Vestfold
her father

Olaf Gudrødsson «Geirstad-Alf» Geirstadalv
his father

Alfhild Alvarinsdotter, Wife of Gudrød Veidekonge
his mother

Alfarin, King of Alfheim
her father

Álfhildr Ingild Gandálfsdóttir
his sister

Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson
her son

Sigurd "Orm-i-øje/Snake-Eye" Ragnarsson
his son

Heluna Princess of England Blaeja
his wife
show short path | share this path x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

Note that there's an ongoing debate about the ancestry of Rollo / Ganger-Rolf - Snorre the saga writer claimed that he was from Norway, while one of the French history-writers who wrote a history for his great-grandson seemed to claim that he was from Denmark.

We're unlikely to ever know for sure.

@Sue Cevasco.
In Scandinavia Regnar Lodbrog is considered a mythological caracter but he is mentioned in European sources and therefore a historical person (Adam of Bremen). His son Sigurd the Snake-Eyed is a historical person mentioned several places among them:
SNORRE's Kongesagaer: Ynglingesaga; Kong Olav Trygvessons Saga; Halvdan Svartes Saga. In theese sources his marriage to Blæja the daughter of his fathers killer King Ella of Mercia described therefore the persons in question must be considered historical. As a revenge King Ella is killed by Sigurds elder brother Ivar Benløs (week legs).This story is to be find in Regnar Lodbrogs Saga.

Thanks everyone! I'll try to sort all this out!

Thank you, Sue, for directing me to my 35th gggreatgm - even if she never existed-.

As Lars pointed out Scandinavian sources Ragnar Lodbrók Sigurdsson might be considered mythological in his native land.

However you must factor in the nature of contemporary Scandinavian society.

There was no worth placed upon reading or writing. And the organisation, the Christian Church, which sustained and nourished both of these skills was simply regarded as a convenient store of gold and silver, and of monks and nuns who, unarmed, were easy prey for the extensive slave markets run by the Scandinavians.

To compensate for the lack of the written word Scandinavian society relied upon an oral tradition, either Eddaic poetry or the more refined Skaldic poetry to record events and personages.

You might argue that they did possess a form of writing, dating primarily from the 6th and 7th centuries, the pictograms contained on the commemorative runestones, but scarcely amounting to 'language' to record complex events.

So, returning to Ragnar Lodbrók Sigurdsson, you will find traces of him in surviving poetry, but in the nature of verses committed to paper long after they were originally composed, these traces are often overwritten by subsequent events and by personages 'introduced' as 'colour ' into the story.

You must look for reasonably accurate accounts in the surviving contemporary or near contemporary manuscripts generated particularly by Irish and Saxon chroniclers.

After all the 'Viking' kingdoms of Jórvík, (York), Dyflin- Duibhlinn (Dublin), Wexford, Waterford, Limerick and Kingdom of Mann and the Isles, were surrounded by literate Christian society, who naturally recorded the doings of their sometimes enemies and sometimes allies.

These chronicles, often biased, and sometimes only surviving in fragments are still more reliable than primarily relying on more 'colourful' accounts contained in surviving Icelandic Eddaic and Skaldic based sagas, which often have the authentic approach of 'yellow' journalism.

Remember too that a large part of Bishop Brynjúlfr Sveinsson's library collection of these sagas which had survived into his time later perished in the Great Fire of Copenhagen, October 20-23, 1728. So survivals often are too fragmentary to cross-check events in order to compare and exclude later additions.
http://www.germanicmythology.com/original/CopenhagenFire.html

Regarding Ragnar Lodbrók Sigurdsson's wife or 'wives' or concubines. He is commonly regarded as having married three times.

The most famous perhaps of these was Aslaug Sigurdsdóttir, by whom he had Ivarr Benløs Ragnarsson, King of Dublin, better known as Ivarr the Boneless, who with his brother's Halfdan and Ubbe led the Great Heathen Army against the Kingdom of Alfred the Great, and was recorded in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles.

Ivarr himself is recorded in the Irish Annals as dying in 873 'of a sudden hideous disease'. He was buried near the Steine in Dublin, and his remains were accidentally found in the 1720's during sewer laying.

Ivarr's sons are next recorded in the Irish Annals as Uí Ímair, the people or descendants of Ivarr.

As for the putative Heluna, Princess of England, I am sorry to report that she appears to be a fictitious person. Even her name is not of Mercian origin.

However given the near impossibility of guaranteeing a blood line back to this era because of the paucity of reputable sources explained above, and multiple marriages, dalliances etc does it really matter?

But reading the chronicles/annals, easily accessable in translation, is an intriguing and fascinating way to return to that era, much more rewarding and accurate than a lazy perusal of 'Wikipedia'.

Michael

@Sue Cevasco
Thanks to Michael for Your inlightning text - If i may add - Geni and Wikipedia aswell contains a lot of homespun konclusions and its almost impossible to make corrections.
Over the last say 8 years I have put together all the written sagas from Iceland and Norway and put their gallery of persons and their relations into the BrothersKeeper shareware - The result is very interesting due to the fact that they click . There are no interferrence! To me it strongly indicates a historical existence.

Lars

@Sue Cevasco
Thanks to Michael for Your inlightning text - If i may add - Geni and Wikipedia aswell contains a lot of homespun konclusions and its almost impossible to make corrections.
Over the last say 8 years I have put together all the written sagas from Iceland and Norway and put their gallery of persons and their relations into the BrothersKeeper shareware - The result is very interesting due to the fact that they click . There are no interferrence! To me it strongly indicates a historical existence.

Lars

@Lars Rømer-Nygaard did you include the Laxdala Saga and the Orkney Saga? I know of at least one conflict between those two particular ones.

Most of the time they do not interfere, but there's no perfection to be had.

@Harald Teit Alvestrand yes I have inkluded the mentioned sagas - Now I'm considering taking in the whole gallery of persons in Snorres Kongesagaer (Riksudgaven index). And yes there are some differences some is simply neutralized by translating names correctly.
My point in the last part of the tread, is that sagas occurred after say 700 untill Snorres rewriting before his death 23.9.1241 could never been created due to a previous plan therefore the perfection is due to the fact that lines of ancestor assembles without interference.
Further more tracking Down the survival of sagas is a strong evidence of reliability.
1st track (In short): Snorre Gode - his daughter Turid - Are Prest den Frode (1068-1148) - (Gunnlaurg) - Snorre Sturlasson.
2nd track The Icelandic Handwritings.
3rd track Finnur Jonsson and his son Hannes Finsson (Historia ecclesiastica Islandiæ & Landnamabok (my great grandfathers).

Lars

Hi Lars

Your project of comparison and integration is a valuable addition to research into the events and persons of the Classical Saga Period [CSP].

By giving future researcher the ability to cross check events and personages recorded in different Saga's it will make it much easier to discard fictitious later additions [colour] to the original story.

Perhaps you might also consider introducing the chronology contained in the Christian Annals when these Annals identify a 'similar' person in the Saga's?

I say 'similar', because as you know, too often there are regional variations in how history has recorded the name of obviously the same person. Halfdan or Hvitserk Ragnarsson is a pertinent example of double-naming which often confuses the modern era.

A reliable chronology base would also provide researchers with a tool to identify situations where presently there is some 'generational disorder', sons identified as 'brothers' etc.

Shorn of later additions and other fictitious elements the surviving Saga's would indeed add considerably to our present knowledge of the CSP, and in fact would allow us to push back 'history' into what is presently regarded as a 'Dark Period' of legend.

I am often reminded that Heinrich Schliemann took the view that Homer and Virgil's great Epic poems described actual historical events, a view completely contrary to the established view of the time which considered the poems as 'fairy stories'.

And history proved Schliemann right!

It only remains for someone like yourself to provide the Saga's with sufficient external corroborating evidence to similarly justify the view that the Saga's likewise describe actual people and events in their historic setting.

Best Regards
Michael

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