Ada de Huntingdon - Curators :Ada was also married to Ralph Brereton please add

Erica, thanks for making that point. When I first came to this discussion, I dismissed the idea that the Breretons could be descended from Ada exactly because there was no Brereton Competitor.

Then we saw the monumental inscription that explicitly says the wife of Ralph Brereton was Ada, daughter of David, but there are reasons to believe the inscription is late and perhaps from a reconstructed tomb. Now Lloyd adds that in 1576 the inscription was noticed as being in characters more modern than the rest of the monument (Doug Richardson citing Omerod).

Then we saw the coat of arms, also very late, of a Brereton man quartering a le Scot heiress. When I was writing about it I didn't think of this specific problem. If the Breretons were entitled to that quartering, that would put one of them back among the Competitors, wouldn't it?

Or maybe not. I've seen many simplified genealogy charts that show the relationships among the Competitors. All of them eliminate the siblings in order to focus on the actual 1291 claimants. In other words, junior members of the family are ignored, as indeed they must have been at the time.

Perhaps the same applied to cousins. if John Hastings was the senior descendant and represented the line of Ada, perhaps a cousin with junior rights would have been disregarded as a Competitor.

I'm leaving open the possibility, but I don't accept it. Everything I'm seeing suggests the 16th century Breretons believed they were descended from Ada, daughter of David 300 years earlier, but their belief doesn't prove they were correct.

I think the answer to this puzzle is going to be something else. Maybe Ralph Brereton married a different woman in the same family (who might or might not have been an heiress). Or maybe Ralph did marry this Ada but she was not the mother of his children.

In the SGM thread linked above, John Ravilious (a highly competent researcher) Burke's Landed Gentry as saying, 'Sir Ralph de Brereton, Kt., of Brereton, Cheshire, born ca. 1210. M. Ada (widow of Sir William Handsacre, Kt.), d. of Henry de Hastings. Died before 1289'. Burke's is a very poor source this early and Ravilious thinks this is unlikely on chronological grounds, but after some of the discussion here I think it might be more likely than it first seems.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2002-02/...

One quick follow up -- the fact the editors of Burke's went with a different solution than the traditional Brereton pedigree suggests to me that someone has done additional research on this line, research that is not being represented in this discussion.

I don't think much of Burke's as a source because it so often just repeats older, bad information from other compilations and it often misses deeper, more modern research. However, in this case it is not just repeating the Brereton family myth. Might be something to that.

I am trying to upload a PDF from the Chesire Heraldry Society that is the pedigree they accept for the Brereton family. It also has explanations of the chronology of the Brereton Arms, lots of early 11th and 12th century information about the family, their relationship to St. Mary's Astbury, confirmation of my earlier findings regarding Gilbert Brereton Rector of St. Mary's being Ralph and Ada's son, their relationship to the Venables, etc. The only item I could find in it that conflicts, is that when it was written, 1902, at that time it was thought that Henry Hastings died in 1268, which we now know was 1250, which puts Ada 18 years younger than the author thought, supporting more that she was still young enough to remarry and have children. It also reiterates that Craig Thornton said about using Ormerod for sources. I'm trying to upload this pdf, but Geni isn't liking it, so if you have suggestions, let me know.

Here are the familial relationships as per the Chesire Heraldry Society:
These are impaled arms.

Dexter:
1 Argent, two bars Sable [Brereton]
2 Argent, an inescutcheon within a double tressure counter flory Gules [Scotland]
3 Or, three piles in point Gules [Scot Earl of Chester]
4 Quarterly; 1 & 4 (Kevelioc and lupus) 2 & 3 Azure, three garbs Or (Kevelioc Earl of Chester)
5 Gules, three pheons Argent [pro Egerton inherited from Belward, Baron of Malpas]
6 Azure, three garbs Or [Kevelioc Earl of Chester]
7 Azure, a wolf's head erased Argent (in this image he appears to have a ring in his mouth!) [Lupus Earl of Chester]
8 Argent a cross flory Azure [pro Egerton inherited from Malpas, baron of Malpas]
9 Argent, a lion rampant Gules between three (sometimes six . here ten) pheons Sable [Egerton of Egerton]
10 Or, two ravens in pale Sable [Corbet of Leighton]
11 Ermine, five chevronels Gules, on a canton of the second a lion passant Or [Orreby]
12 Gules, two lions pasant Argent, a label of three points Or [Strange of Dalby]
13 Quarterly Argent and Gules, over all on a bend Sable three mullets of the first [Ashley]
14 Gules, three cross-crosslets fitchee Or, a chief of the second charged with a crescent for difference [Arderne]
15 Argent, on a bend engrailed Sable, an annulet Or [Radcliffe]
16 Argent, a griffin segreant Gules [Chaderton]
17 Quarterly, Argent and Gules, a bend Azure [Timperley]
18 Gules, a lion rampant Argent [unidentified]
It is believed that there is no real evidence to substantiate the descent bringing in the quarterings of the earls of Chester line.
Sinister:
Warburton, of Arley
1 Quarterly Argent and Gules, in the second and third quarters a fret Or [Dutton]
2 Argent, four bars Gules
3 Argent, a chevron between three cormorants Sable [Warburton]
4 Argent, three chevrons Gules, on a canton of the last a mullet Or [Warburton Ancient, or Orreby]
5 Argent, a shield voided Sable, an orle of martlets of the last [Winnington]
6 Azure, a garb Or, between two bezants in fess [Grosvenor]
7 Sable, a cross patonce Argent [Pulford] [this coat is also recorded elsewhere as that of Eaton]
8 Azure, three pheasants Or [Fesant]*
9 Quarterly Argent and Gules, in the second and third quarters a fret Or [Dutton]

In order to ascertain the chronological order of each quartering you would need to know the entire genealogy of the armiger.

See attached history of the Brereton family.

Also very pertinent to this discussion is reading the Treaty of York, 1237, which was made just after John le Scot died (or was murdered as some sources claim). In this treaty, Henry III and Alexander of Scotland are coming to terms with issues regarding the border lands between England and Scotland. Alexander seems to have been trying to secure the future of his dynasty in this document, now that John le Scot had died a few months earlier. In it he specifically has Henry agree that his heirs would never become subject to the courts of England. Here are the particulars:

The King of Scotland: quitclaims to the King of England his hereditary rights to the counties of Northumberland, Cumberland, and Westmorland; quitclaims 15,000 marks of silver paid by King William to King John for certain conventions not observed by the latter; and frees Henry from agreements regarding marriages between Henry and Richard, and Alexander's sisters Margaret, Isabella, and Marjory.
The King of England grants the King of Scotland certain lands within Northumberland and Cumberland, to be held by him and his successor kings of Scotland in feudal tenure with certain rights exempting them from obligations common in feudal relationships, and with the Scottish Steward sitting in Justice regarding certain issues that may arise, and these, too, are hereditary to the King of Scotland's heirs, and regarding these the King of Scotland shall not be answerable to an English court of law in any suit.
The King of Scotland makes his homage and fealty – de praedictis terris.
Both kings respect previous writings not in conflict with this agreement, and any charters found regarding said counties to be restored to the King of England.

Richardson bases his entire argument regarding Ada's death as proven by her being subject to the English laws of marital landholding. However, if Ada was not an English subject, then those would mean nothing, and Henry could have grabbed her and her sisters lands using this against them.

"John died childless on 6 June 1237, aged 30. He too, like his uncle Ranulph before him, left four sisters as his co-heirs. They agreed to share the estates between them, and to make the husband of the eldest sister Christian, William de Forz, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon by right of his wife. However Henry III decided that the earldoms should be annexed to the crown "lest so fair a dominion should be divided among women". So Henry basically forced them to give up their hereditary rights, which were supposed to be settled in the Scottish Courts, not English.

I have also found this:" In 1246, Henry bought the honour (estate) of Chester from John's four sisters." I am researching that citation.

Also, at no point while I have been researching this have any of the expert historians in Chesire EVER called the Brereton genealogy a MYTH. I am definitely getting the feeling that at the very least, they think the question is wide open, or leans to the side of Ada being married to Ralph. Again, I'll return to them saying "we find Ormerod the best source for Chesire history".
They have sent me another letter, but I haven't had time to read, as I am very busy at work. I would think we need an expert in 13th century law to interpret what might have been going on during Henry's landgrab.

And again, FYI, there has never been a debate about the inscription. The inscription IS of later dating, and is linked to the Windsor Library document I have posted on my alternate Ada profile, where the the rector and others at the church are swearing to identify who is located in the tomb. That was the reason I believe for the meeting and creation of the document.

Regarding the quarterings on the shield, they are not so new as Lloyd might think, this is covered both in the pdf I'm trying to upload, and by the expert at Chesire Heraldry, who said he couldn't speculate on the age. I sure am learning one thing, talk to the experts!

Another way to look at this is: history is written by the victor. At this point, say 1250, Henry Hastings dies, and Ada has no protection under English law. It would have been very advantageous for her to marry Ralph Brereton, not the other way around. Ralph was from an extremely old and powerful Norman family, and would have been able to protect her and/or any future children she may have had. The king took the young heir, Henry Hastings, as a ward of his liege men to make sure he grew up a nice Englishman. By reducing his inheritance, he was also of lower stature under English law when he finally comes of age. And then he only lives 4 years. Problem solved for Henry!

So, now you know:

1. These are probably the arms of Sir William Brereton, MP, who married Jane Warburton. His arms appear on the left, hers on the right. From the number of quarterings included, you also know this is depiction is not from his lifetime but is a much later construction.

2. Quarterings 10-18 on his side are claimed in right of his ancestor Alice, who married Sir William de Brereton, IV.

3. Quarterings 5 through 9 on his wide are claimed in right of his ancestor Helena Egerton, who married Sir William Brereton, Kt..

4. Quarterings 2 through 4 are doubtful, and possibly faked.

Good job!

Eyton seems to have been well thought of as an antiquarian. He wrote

http://books.google.com/books?id=o0lNAAAAMAAJ&vq=Hastings&p...

"Of Ada, the youngest of the Ladies, I am now to speak; for to her and her husband, Henry de Hastings, were assigned, among other estates, three Shropshire Manors, in partial satisfaction of their claims on the Honour of Chester. Thus in the year 1238 did Worfield, Condover, and Church-Stretton, all of the King's ancient demesne, pass to a subject.

From March in that year, the revenue heretofore charged on the Sheriff as accruing from Worfield was deducted from the aggregate ferm of the County. Hence, at Michaelmes 1242, John le Strange, then Sheriff, deducts £144. 2s. 0\d. from his own liabilities at the Exchequer;—he deducts it in respect of "lands given to Henry de Hastinges and Ada his wife in the Manor of Wurefeud" four years and a half previously, " which Manor," he
8 Bot. Claiis, I, 486.
adds, is rated at £32. 0s. 5£rf. in the Corpus ComitatHs, according to an Inquisition made thereupon by order of the King. This annual deduction of £32. 0s. 5\d. continues, without alteration or remark, in the succeeding Pipe Rolls till that of 1247, when, Ada de Hastings being dead, the Sheriff notifies the continued lifeinterest of her husband in Condover and Worfield, "by reason of the heirs of Ada his wife whom he has by the said Ada:" in other words, Henry de Hastings was Tenant by Courtesy of England. So he continued not long;—but, dying in 1250, left his son, Henry, and his two daughters, Margery and Hillaria, under age.

======

" This annual deduction of £32. 0s. 5\d. continues, without alteration or remark, in the succeeding Pipe Rolls till that of 1247, when, Ada de Hastings being dead ..."

Ormerod's exact words are here:

https://archive.org/stream/historyofcountyp03orme#page/51/mode/1up

"Sir Ralph Brereton of Brereton, Kt. said in some pedigrees to marry Ada, daughter of David, Earl of Huntington, relict of Henry Hastings."

===========

I don't see this kind of hesitation anywhere else on his chart.

In Australia they are trashing graves after 100 years. If we cannot get access to DNA of such historical importance there is something wrong. You could all work here for years and not reach concensus.

We need to have the DNA tested for these sites and find out wether or not these families are linked or not.

My 2 bobs worth.

Pamela,

You spent over an hour posting arguments in this thread yesterday, how can you claim you are "too busy at work" to read the letter from your experts?

Sharyn,

I don't see how a DNA test would help? This isn't a paternity suit where the two potential sires can be tested and compared to the offspring. You could only test the body (if there is a viable sample possible) and then test someone of proven descent from Richard Brereton (if such a person exists).
Even then the only conclusive result would be a negative one because any sort of positive match in the DNA between a 800 year old corpse and a living person from the same region could just be a coincidence of intermingling families during the intervening years.

Okay I have read all 6 pages of this and seem to be more lost then I was at start.. Please don';t hold it against me.. I seem to be related to Ada de Hastings and her father and mother
Sir Henry de Hastings and Ada Heiress of Yardley

after all this, I am wondering how should I go about doing my tree with these people... I mean this was all argued through 6 pages and nothing seems for sure.. is it safe to put them in family trees and say that this Ada de Hastings was married to Sir Ralph de BRERETON or not as Geni has them as married without listing Sir Hubert HOVEL... ?
@ Erica Isabel Howtwon you and I have worked on some profiles recently so I will trust what you say.. thank you
this Ada de Hastings is supposed to be my 20th great grand aunt
and her father Sir Henry de Hastings and mother to be my 21st great grandparents

thank you and sorry if this makes me look lost or anything

The argument is a bit esoteric. :)

Here are basic facts, well known & accepted, and (horrors) I'll reference Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_of_Scotland,_Earl_of_Huntingdon

The tree goes

Henry of Scotland & Ada de Warenne were the parents of
David of Scotland, Earl of Huntington

He married Matilda of Chester. They had one surviving son (John le Scot) and 4 daughters.

His youngest daughter was called Ada, after his mother. She was born after 1195 and before 1219. She was married to Henry de Hastings, who died in 1250, leaving his son and heir http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_de_Hastings,_1st_Baron_Hastings & several daughters. They were underage & the King held their guardianship.

There is a claim that after Henry of Hasting's death in 1250, Ada his widow remarried to the knight Ralph de Brereton, who was living in 1275.

This claim is based, quite a bit, on a monumental inscription. That inscription does not, to me, seem be supplemented by other evidence.

Ada was a wealthy woman and owned a lot of property. There is no reference to her in written contemporary records after 1247. Her daughters were living with nuns "for their education" at their father's death in 1250.

It is possible she & Henry of Hastings had earlier daughters, or (to my mind more likely) he was 1st married to another woman and had several daughters; they were not heiresses to any of Ada's property.

So there was a daughter of Henry of marriageable age in 1250. Her name was also Ada. The king held her dowry meaning he needed to approve her marriage, but it seems she was "abducted" and married. It is possible she survived that husband and remarried. There are several candidates for her 2nd husband, one being Ralph de Brereton, as that could explain the monumental inscription.

according to Geni.com doc holiday is related to me through her this way ::
Osmer Curtis Drake
his father

→

David Drake
his father

→

Oliver Drake, Capt.
his father

→

Anna Fitz Drake
his mother

→

Joanna Fitzrandolph
her mother

→

John Belconger (Conger)
her father

→

John Belconger
his father

→

Ann M. Belconger
his mother

→

Thomas Ward
her father

→

Geffery Ward
his father

→

Robert Warde, Jr.
his father

→

Alice Warde
his mother

→

Robert Kempe
her father

→

John Kempe
his father

→

Isabelle de Hastings
his mother

→

Edmund Hastings
her father

→

Sir Henry ll de Hastings, of Ashill
his father

→

Ada de Hastings
his sister

→

Sir William de Brereton, Kt.
her son

→

William V de Brereton, 7th Lord Brereton
his son

→

William de Brereton
his son

→

Margaret Brereton
his daughter

→

Margaret Jane Delves
her daughter

→

Robert Bayly
her son

→

Thomas Delves Bayly
his son

→

William Thomas Bailey
his son

→

William Bayley Bailey
his son

→

Thomas Bailey, Sr
his son

→

Daniel Bailey
his son

→

Elizabeth Ann Cloud
his daughter

→

William Cloud, of Brandywine Hundred
her son

→

William Cloud, Jr. of Brandywine
his son

→

Joseph Cloud
his son

→

Jane Cloud
his daughter

→

Alice Jane Holliday
her daughter

→

Doc Holliday
her son

she Ada de Hastings is related to me this way::
→

Leroy Pratt Drake
her father

→

Osmer Curtis Drake
his father

→

David Drake
his father

→

Oliver Drake, Capt.
his father

→

Anna Fitz Drake
his mother

→

Joanna Fitzrandolph
her mother

→

John Belconger (Conger)
her father

→

John Belconger
his father

→

Ann M. Belconger
his mother

→

Thomas Ward
her father

→

Geffery Ward
his father

→

Robert Warde, Jr.
his father

→

Alice Warde
his mother

→

Robert Kempe
her father

→

John Kempe
his father

→

Isabelle de Hastings
his mother

→

Edmund Hastings
her father

→

Sir Henry ll de Hastings, of Ashill
his father

→

Ada de Hastings
his sister

Her mother Ada
→

Leroy Pratt Drake
her father

→

Osmer Curtis Drake
his father

→

David Drake
his father

→

Oliver Drake, Capt.
his father

→

Anna Fitz Drake
his mother

→

Joanna Fitzrandolph
her mother

→

John Belconger (Conger)
her father

→

John Belconger
his father

→

Ann M. Belconger
his mother

→

Thomas Ward
her father

→

Geffery Ward
his father

→

Robert Warde, Jr.
his father

→

Alice Warde
his mother

→

Robert Kempe
her father

→

John Kempe
his father

→

Isabelle de Hastings
his mother

→

Edmund Hastings
her father

→

Sir Henry ll de Hastings, of Ashill
his father

→

Ada of Huntingdon, Heiress of Yardley

Ada of Huntingdon, Heiress of Yardley of Huntingdon is my second great grandfathe's wife's frist cousin once removed's wife's frist cousin twice removed's husband's 13th great grandmother.
Thank you to all of you who have these wonderful history trails! Beautiful and lovely autumn greetings!

Alex Moes, please refer to the DNA testing of Richard III and a descendant of his sister.

And yes, I am VERY busy, and try to hit messages when I get a chance.not that it is any of your business to comment on.

Pamela, you are making some very fundamental mistakes about heraldry.

1. The Huntingdon quarter on a funeral monument is not, by itself, proof that it was authorized by the College of Arms.

2. If the College of Arms did in fact authorize use of the Huntingdon quarter, that alone is not sufficient to prove that it was correct.

To understand why you would need to have a much better grounding in English heraldic law and practice.

So far you are choosing to ignore that kind of thing in favor of a general accusation that people have "made erroneous statements about heraldry".

A very improper argument when what you really mean is that you choose to ignore that part of it because it doesn't work well with your theory.

Those are not quite the facts. Throughout Geni, you depend on genealogies of families, LDS, etc, particularly regarding the ancient nobility. There are many ancient genealogies that concur about this marriage, including the well known houses of Leigh, Chomondeley, Brereton, Massy, etc. you undermine yourself when you say things like that, some of the copies are on here as documents! So it's not about a single inscription. Long before the inscription, in a 13th century churchyard there is a chantry chapel with a knight and his Lady in effigy, an extremely ancient, large and public covered burial site that the inscription is made on. This family also erected windows in the church and other elaborate decorations in one of the most ancient churches in Britain and their own home and chapels quartering their coats of arms with the Scottish family and Ada's Coat, which has been identified to me by Cheshire Heraldry. This means there was a marriage between the Brereton family and the Scots royal house. Cheshire Heraldry identified 2 Scots coats of arms, one Ada's personal, in the mothers position in the Brereton Coat of Arms.
This was an extremely high profile church, family and group of surrounding aristocrats. Around the same time the original Norman Church underwent a Great renovation. The rector in charge of this community was Gilbert Bereton, see church record on his profile. The genealogist that is considered the most reliable in the field, Ormerod, and who is used to this day as best resource for Cheshire families by the Cheshire Historical Society mentions this marriage.
When Ada and her sisters inherited their lands, King Henry III vowed to take them away. Henry had signed a treaty with their father that they would never be subject to English courts, etc etc...all entered above discussion, but when their brother died young, supposedly poisoned ( a typical medieval assasins tool) Henry began his threats, and was in a Barons Revolt with the north, and was fighting the Scots. Reading the history will help clarify why getting this family out of the way was very important as his crown was being threatened, and he wanted to consolidate England and Scotland.

So it's not just an inscription, although whole dynasties in Egypt have been identified based on inscriptions. During the first Visitation of the Heralds, where families were required to show up and prove they were entitiled to their arms based on their genealogies, the Breretons were awarded wearing the Coat of Arms of John le Scot, Ada's brother, and they have used them ever since.

Henry had control of the heir ( who would live a very short life). His actions were completely illegal, and Ada and her sisters must have felt like fugitives, Ada's lands being in the hands of her husband, then immediately given to the hated Angevin Lusignan after her husbands death in 1250. The Lusignans doing things like this started the Barons War.

All other resources I have looked at, for instance MedLands, which your curators quote frequently, simply say she died " after" 1241'. The Welsh Medieval records go further and say she married Ralph Brereton and had two sons, William and Gilbert. The Welsh records are rewriting information on a lot of families.

Since the victor always writes history, you have to read the motivations of all parties.

"Since the victor always writes history, you have to read the motivations of all parties."

And here the victors wrote the Earls of Huntingdon into their history ;)

Trying to think of a way to make it easy for you.

Think about this -- Why do the Earls Spencer (the family of Princess Diana) have a coat of arms that shows them to be male-line descendants of the medieval Despenser family? Actually, they are descended from a Tudor lawyer, Henry Spencer whose family got a very different and very new coat of arms in the 1500s.

If you take some time to research that question and understand how it happened, you will see the mistakes you are making in your reasoning about the Huntingdon quarter in the Brereton arms.

In Scotland, where Ada would have considered herself a " citizen" so to speak, marriage could be very informal, and had completely different custom than at the court of Henry III. There was a great power struggle going on then and so Ada could have simply chosen her next husband, and informally married. There is clear documentation how she met Ralph, so that's not an issue. On the other hand, in Norman England, an heiress of her stature would have been required to remarry, as they had no legal status themselves. Rich heiresses of any age, even elderly would be kidnapped by lords who wanted their lands and forced to marry. It would be rare for an heiress to stay a widow; remember, technically, all land belonged to the king, and so you had to seek his permission to do anything, even go to a nunnery, which many women did to avoid remarriage. Usually you had to pay up or have connections to do that.

However, there appears to be official contradiction of this "additional generation" in the following note found in Archaeologia, or Miscellaneous Tracts Relating to Antiquity, stating (apparently) that Ada de Huntington was married to Ralph de Brereton:

"Sir Ralph Brereton of Brereton, Knight, through marriage to Ada de Huntington, gives the Breretons Royal Descent because she was decended of David, King of Scotland, and maternally the Earls of Chester were Royal Earls, who possessed jura regalis in the Palatinate of Chester. They also laid claim to royal descent from the Venables, who was a relation of Stephen of Blois and William, the Conqueror. At first the descent of the Breretons from the royal blood of Scotland was mentioned as a mere claim, which was found in Collins' Peerage and in Dugdale's British Peers, but a copy of the patent or grant of creation to Sir William Brereton, of the Barony of Brereton, has since been procured and in that instrument such royal descent in Scotland is expressly recited and recognized in the following terms: "We, considering with mature deliberation the free and true services of Sir William Brereton, and that he is sprung from an ancient, noble and most renowned family, inasmuch as he is descended, through many illustrious ancestors, from Ada, sister of John, surnamed le Scot, 7th Earl of Chester, and daughter of David, Earl of Huntingdon, Lord of Galloway, within our kingdom of Scotland." (This quotation is found in Archaeologia, or Miscellaneous Tracts Relating to Antiquity, Vol. 33, p. 59.)

Justin, my information comes from Chesire Heraldry, I wrote to them specifically about this. Are you more expert than they?

And FYI, you don't need to put it in simple terms. Should I put things in more simple terms?

You made an assumption that I didn't consult with experts; their heraldry is found everywhere not just on the monument. It's all over the churches, chapels, homes and portraits of the Breretons.