Ada de Huntingdon - Curators :Ada was also married to Ralph Brereton please add

Sharyn how would that account for this exact wording

"he is descended, through many illustrious ancestors, from Ada, sister of John, surnamed le Scot, 7th Earl of Chester, and daughter of David, Earl of Huntingdon, Lord of Galloway, within our kingdom of Scotland."

To be very clear I see this:

- a child of Ada of Huntington (abt 1205-1242) married & had issue in the Brereton family
- her known children were issue of her Hastings marriage

Therefore the descent in the Brereton family needs to find a Hastings child

This may or may not be correlated with the Ada buried with Ralph, last known living in 1275

Could be a later descendant from the Hastings I suppose.

Its possible, and, I think this instance cannot be worked on in isolation, the whole line needs to be checked, a lot of supposed decedent makes it important..

Plural ?

I would be most interested on "when" the inscription was made. I am pretty sure there was a possibility it was first made

- "some time after" the entombing event
- refreshed some time after that

Sharyn you have a good point. For the genealogy to meet the archeology, the traditional method of working "backwards in time," validating each step of the parent pair, would be in order. This would also clarify the generations.

I am not as far as I know in the Brereton line.

The suggested starting point could be the William Brereton whose pedigree was accepted, event reported in Collins.

BTW there was a case made for Ada "the elder" being issue of a legal marriage, records unknown / lost. Ada was the name of David, count of Huntington's mother; would he have allowed it for the child of a mistress?

I had also thought that Ada (2nd) could have been living with her daughter and therefore buried at St. Mary's. Could go back to Medlands to examine her locations?

http://www.churchmonumentssociety.org/Cheshire.html

There is a Randal Brereton here, but these people may be able to help with what you want Lloyd.
http://www.churchmonumentssociety.org/Cheshire.html

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Just posting this that I put up on another discussion:
Search:

At this point they lie Ralph Breretons, the Knight, and the Lady of Adah, the wife of their own. One of the daughters Diavidis Count

only google translate, but could mean OF Adah (daughter, who was dau David)

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Miles+Brereton+Father+of+Ralph&a...

What was the Latin for "the wife of their own"

Its not reliable, its the Archive txt thing :(
Hie jacent Radulphus Brereton, Miles, et Domina Ada, uxor sua. una filiarum Diavidis Comitis,

I've looked through this book

archive.org/stream/breretonsofchesh00brer/breretonsofchesh00brer_djvu.txt
It is consistent with Doug Richardson's conclusions.

To me, it is only possible that Sir Randolph, living in 1275, married & had issue with a daughter of Ada of Huntington.

This writer did not have access to the documents establishing the death dates of Ada, daughter of David, and Henry Hastings (dead in 1250, not in 1268). And even so saw the problem.

A closer translation of that inscription would be: Here lies Ralph Brereton, Knight, and Lady Ada, his wife, one of the daughters of Count David.

There really isn't room for an ambiguity here.

OK, that's what junior high school Latin gave me, too.

Skimming the Archive.org book Sharyn located, it did not seem that the pedigree was depending on this one relationship; there was a long list of illustrious ancestors. So I'm not seeing any signs of a tricked up pedigree, are you?

That leaves me thinking it's simply an error. There's wife of Sir Ralph buried with him in the church, and she descended from Ada, daughter of David, count of Huntington. Very easy many years later to have elided names & dates. (this "never" happens in genealogy :) :)).

Easy to see the problem, but not so easy to see a final solution. I understand the theory she was a granddaughter of David rather than a daughter, but it still seems speculative to me. I don't doubt she was a member of his family. I think it's plausible the tomb was mangled during a reconstruction. The line leads to royalty so I see the temptation to push for a plausible solution, but if it were up to me, I'd just shrug and move on. As Richardson says, it needs more research.

The eagle eyed members of the site will not, I think, be happy about a marriage after a lady deceased.:).

And even though I know intellectually - "Geni says she's my 25th great grand mother !" needs to be taken with many grains of "prove it," emotionally there is a reaction to seeing the impossible.

Private User I know I defer to your decision on a presentation solution. My suggestion (and it's only that) would be to link the daughter to Brereton & not the previous generation.

Erica Howton -

Ben is curating the profile for Ada of Hastings m. Ralph Brereton. It looks clean and well documented. I'm not feeling the need to change anything.

Thanks for all the research, and for helping me understand this issue. Now to prevent merges between Ada of Hastings and Ada, heiress of Yardley....

Additional source added to profile.

http://books.google.com/books?id=o0lNAAAAMAAJ&vq=Hastings&p...

Citation: Antiquities of Shropshire, Volume 3 (Google eBook) Robert William Eyton J.R. Smith, 1856 - Shropshire (England). Page 107-108

Text:

Of Ada, the youngest of the Ladies, I am now to speak; for to her and her husband, Henry de Hastings, were assigned, among other estates, three Shropshire Manors, in partial satisfaction of their claims on the Honour of Chester. Thus in the year 1238 did Worfield, Condover, and Church-Stretton, all of the King's ancient demesne, pass to a subject.
From March in that year, the revenue heretofore charged on the Sheriff as accruing from Worfield was deducted from the aggregate ferm of the County. Hence, at Michaelmes 1242, John le Strange, then Sheriff, deducts £144. 2s. 0\d. from his own liabilities at the Exchequer;—he deducts it in respect of "lands given to Henry de Hastinges and Ada his wife in the Manor of Wurefeud" four years and a half previously, " which Manor," he
8 Bot. Claiis, I, 486.
adds, is rated at £32. 0s. 5£rf. in the Corpus ComitatHs, according to an Inquisition made thereupon by order of the King. This annual deduction of £32. 0s. 5\d. continues, without alteration or remark, in the succeeding Pipe Rolls till that of 1247, when, Ada de Hastings being dead, the Sheriff notifies the continued lifeinterest of her husband in Condover and Worfield, "by reason of the heirs of Ada his wife whom he has by the said Ada:" in other words, Henry de Hastings was Tenant by Courtesy of England. So he continued not long;—but, dying in 1250, left his son, Henry, and his two daughters, Margery and Hillaria, under age.

By the way, in regards to this error:

"This writer did not have access to the documents establishing the death dates of Ada, daughter of David, and Henry Hastings (dead in 1250, not in 1268). ..."

The 2nd Henry de Hastings died in 1268.

No property in Shropshire, which was part of Ada's inheritance, seemed to go to Brereton.

Copying over another post made so this single discussion can be used. Those interested are already following this discussion. Please post any responses here.

From http://www.geni.com/discussions/137298?msg=952596

Private User wrote:

While further researching this profile, I contacted one of the so called experts on this person. All his citations come down to two only, regarding Ada's death date. In one he is requoting another genealogist. In the second, I will have to search for the document, because he has no copy of it.

No explanations offered for many historic documents and heraldry in direct conflicts with his theories.
So: case far from closed. Very interesting indeed.

Re: Henry de Hastings, died 1250

From http://books.google.com/books?id=TodbAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA250&ots...

Citation: The archaeological journal: published under the direction of the central committee of the Archaeological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, for the encouragement and prosecution of researches into the arts and monuments of the Early and Middle Ages, Volume 26 (Google eBook)
Archaeological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 1869. Page 249. "The Rise and Race of Hastings."

Text:

VII. Henry De Hastings. Henry 7th baron Hastings was of full age at his father's death, and, 28 Jan., 1226, paid 50 marks livery for his lands. The precept is addressed to the sheriffs of Warwick and Leicester, Salop, Beds, Norfolk and Suffolk. [Excerpt, E. R. Fin. I. 112.] Blomfield says, that at the coronation of Queen Eleanor in 1236, Henry de Hastings claimed and was allowed the linen employed as his fee. [H. of Norf. I. 615.]
The House of Hastings, by successive marriages with the heiresses of Windsor, Flamvile, and Banastre, had attained to great wealth and considerable power; but they were now to form an alliance which placed their descendants among the claimants to a throne, and made them actual coheirs of a very wealthy earldom, although out of many of its possessions they were excluded by the sovereign. Henry married before 1237 Ada, daughter of David Earl of Huntingdon, by Maud, sister and coheir of Ranulph Earl of Chester, and a coheir of both these great earldoms. Their arms as set up in the windows of Charlcote House were—Or, a maunch gules, impaling or, 3 piles from the chief, meeting in base gules. [Coll. Top. and Gen. IV. 349.]

(continued)

As the question of succession to the throne of Scotland did not arise in the lifetime of Ada's husband, the position of the several claimants need not here be explained. Henry, however, at once entered into possession of a part of the earldom of Huntingdon, and of certain manors in lieu of his claims upon that of Chester. Thus, in 22 Henry III., 1237-8, the King granted to Henry and Ada de Hastings, in fee, Bremsgrave, co. Worcester; Bolsover Castle, co. Derby; Mansfield, with its soke and 3 members; and Oswardbcc, with its 7 members, in Notts; Worfield, Stratton, and Con-' dover, co. Salop; and Widdington and Wolverhampton, co. Stafford, as part of the heritage of Ada's brother, John le Scot, Earl of Chester, who died 7 June, 1237. [Pat. Roll, p. 18b; H. of Exch. I. 723.] She had also Brampton, co. Hunts. The King resumed the earldom in 1246. The manors of Worfield, Condover, and Church-Stretton were assigned to Henry and Ada in 1238 in part satisfaction of their claim upon it. [Eyton, III. 107.]
The public records contain numerous entries connected with the vast landed property possessed by Henry de Hastings. In 1240 he held, in capite, a quarter fee in Aston and Munslow, co. Salop. In 1241-2, while attending the King in France, he was taken prisoner, but speedily exchanged. [D. Bar. I. 574.] In 1243-4 he was summoned to parliament. 11 March, 1245, the sheriff of Salop was ordered to take possession of Stratton dale Manor, which might be in consequence of Henry's death, though this event is generally placed later. There is some confusion, in the absence of the usual inquisition, between this baron and his successor of the same name. Dugdale combines the two. Eyton, an excellent authority, places his death in 1250.
Robert de Vere held in Slipton and Twyvell, county Northton., half a fee of Ralph Morin, and he of Henry de Hastings, of the Honour of Huntingdon. In this Honour he had fifteen fees, a fifth, and a sixth of a fee, held by fifteen tenants. Felmersham, Harewood, and Kemston, Beds, were of them. [T. de N., 25-26, 242. Abbrev. Rot. Orig. I. 12.] Also of his wife's property he held the vill and soke of Mansfield, that is Woodhouse, Sutton, and Nettelward, in capite, farmed at 321. 3*. lOd. [Ibid. 1.] Of the paternal lands are mentioned Fillongley, held of the fee of Marmion for a quarter fee; Mancetter, where Hugh de Mancetter held half a fee of Henry de Hastings; Burton-Hastings, county Warwick; Birdingbury, Haddon, Elby, Houghton Magna and Parva, county Northton. [Ibid. 52, 84, 99; Bridge's North. I. 370-3. Dug. War. 52.] In Leicestershire, Aston-Flam vile, a parcel of Burbach. In Nayleston, one fee of the fee of Hugh Daubeny, Bramcote, Leir, Wistaneston, Staceston, Addeston, Wistow, and Fleckeneye, Burchton, and Schireford. In Beds, Claydon, Potteshoe, Bideworth, Cranlee and Brouston. Of the fee of St. Edmund, five hides as Seneschal, and two hides in Kenemudewyk, of the same. Also lands in Poslingworth and a fee in Suffolk. [T. de N. passim^] These by no means represent the Hastings' estates, but only such parts of them as became the subject of some feudal or legal incident.
Other estates are also mentioned. He had Tamworth and Wigginton, county Stafford; and, as part of the earldom of Huntingdon, a third of Tottenham, by London, afterwards a distinct manor, known as Pembroke Manor, and held by the Hastings family by the tenure of rendering to the King, if required, a pair of gilt spurs on his taking knighthood. [Lysons' Env. III. 524.] Yardley, in Northamts., afterwards Yardley-Hastings, where Earl David died, was another of Ada's manors, which were thickly scattered over that county. Upon the death of Elena, countess of John le Scot, some years later, other manors fell into the estate. [Bridge's North. I. 395. T. de Nev. passim. Abbr. R. Orig., I. 12. Inq. P. M., 38 Hen. III.].
In 1249, Henry accompanied the Earl of Cornwall with a great retinue to Lyons to visit the Pope, and in that year, or 1250, he died.
By Ada le Scot, Henry de Hastings had, 1. Henry; 2. Margaret, under age in 1250, whose wardship, with that of her sister, was given at once to William de Cantelupe, whose daughter married Margaret's brother Henry; 3. Hilaria, who had from her brother, Nayleston, co. Leicester, and was second wife to Sir William Harcourt, and ancestress of that family. She had dower in Stanton-Harcourt. At their father's death the two sisters were in Alnestow Nunnery, for education. [D. Bar. I. 574, 711, 712. Lipsc. Bucks, IV. 389.] It appears from the Patent Roll of 37 Henry III. [p. 25,] that "Hubertus Lovell subtravit et desponsavit unam filiarum et heredum Henrici de Hastinges." To whom this entry relates is uncertain. These ladies were not heiresses.

Holy cow! I'm related to most of these people, but I'm glad I don't have to try to figure out all the relationships. Thanks for everyone who has done so much work on this project.

I would like to add:
1.) Doug Richardson had one death citation, which I can't find.It ay exist but does not prove anything without other resources, because:
2.) Read Wikipedia article regarding the accuracy of the Pipe Rolls in Cheshire at this time, meaning NOT always reliable;
3.) The Kings of Scotland Coats of Arms are found quartered with Brereton all over the Church of St. Mary's at Astbury, meaning there was a marriage between these families;
4.) Numerous other sources, both direct (Ormerod) and indirect (Gilbert Brereton was the rector of St. Mary's Astbury at the time of the building of the tomb) point the confirming the marriage.
LDS records say Gilbert and William were her sons.

At the very least this profile should say at this point the marriage is strongly suspected. Doug Richardson could not explain away the heraldry in the church which is highly regulated, I discussed it in an email.

The reason I want cross confirmation is there is too much evidence pointing to Richardson being wrong. Also, another branch of my family here was involved in bizarre litigation, that went on for years, as the heir died young with 4 sisters, all of whom wanted to retain the baronetcy, so they retroactively declared him a bastard after death, etc. etc. See where I'm going here? The Brereton's are a family of impeccable lineage, and they would have had to been in a vast conspiracy with other family's who also have Ada de Huntingdon as married to Ralph in their original family pedigrees. The would have had to get the permission of the college of herald's to use Ada's arms. Then there is the document in the Windsor chapel where the church rector, sexton and other aristocrats of the area swear that they tomb and bones are that of Ralph and Ada. This case is far from closed and another historian has also questioned Richardson's research.

Carole, other records say Ada "was relict" meaning widow, of Henry Hastings.

LDS quoting Welsh Medieval Database.

The next logical step is to contact or do research with them to ask how the Brereton Coat of Arms comes to be quartered with Earls of Huntingdon. They have to have an answer to this question.

You can't ignore what is the main conveyance of familial relationships here.I will try to do some research on this, but if anyone else would like to add some information regarding the family coat of arms (Brereton/Huntingdon) please let me know.

Pamela - there is logic in play here too, even if you choose to disregard the evidence of her death via property holdings, which went to the Hastings estate "prior" to his death in 1250, where they were held for Ada & Henry's son Henry de Hastings, and where her underage daughters, living with nuns in 1250, were appointed guardians.

Ada de Huntington was born well before 1219 so is unlikely to be having a 2nd family after 1250. Yet, as you say, the claim to Huntington descent was accepted as a pedigree. So either the claim was faked or there is a "descendant" of Ada de Huntington, married into Brereton.

Can't have it both ways.

Please see & explain why this happened if Ada was living in 1250:

"By Ada le Scot, Henry de Hastings had, 1. Henry; 2. Margaret, under age in 1250, whose wardship, with that of her sister, was given at once to William de Cantelupe, whose daughter married Margaret's brother Henry; 3. Hilaria, who had from her brother, Nayleston, co. Leicester, and was second wife to Sir William Harcourt, and ancestress of that family. She had dower in Stanton-Harcourt. At their father's death the two sisters were in Alnestow Nunnery, for education. [D. Bar. I. 574, 711, 712. Lipsc. Bucks, IV. 389.] It appears from the Patent Roll of 37 Henry III. [p. 25,] that "Hubertus Lovell subtravit et desponsavit unam filiarum et heredum Henrici de Hastinges." To whom this entry relates is uncertain. These ladies were not heiresses."

Explain this regarding claim to Scottish Heraldry:
The situation tends to be a little different in Scotland, where arms have the same significance as in England but where many are tied to clanship and family solidarity and where their use is controlled tightly by Lyon Court in accordance with the laws of Scotland. To most Scots, arms are more a matter of family or clan than of social status, and they prove their right to them by process of law before the Lord Lyon.

How do you come by that she was born " well before" 1219 ? It is totally possible that she was born the year her father died.

Pamela - I don't know much about heraldry so I beg off interpretation.

Please show "any" citation for Ada's birth date. Most I have seen have her as born about 1199.

http://www.archive.org/stream/scotspeeragefoun01pauluoft#page/4/mod...

"Her [Ada's] grandson John was a competitor in 1291.". For the Scottish throne.

This John is
John Hastings, 1st Baron Hastings

Source
http://archive.org/stream/houseofcornewall00live#page/n259/mode/1up

Died in 1313

Build your timeline from there.