Gerhard III, Graf von Dagsburg & Egisheim - Gerhard's parents

Started by Private User on Wednesday, June 4, 2014
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Charles of Lorraine is probably the second of your candidates. That Charles had a daughter Adelaide who is sometimes called Ermengarde.

However, the best thing to do in a case like this where you know the parents are wrong but you can't easily place the profile is to disconnect it. Keep your focus and let someone else hunt down the solution.

So, I disconnected him.

I've been looking at Gerhard III because of his brother, Pope Leo IX (Bruno von Egisheim-Dagsburg) who is of interest to me.

I find that their father, Hugo IV, Count of Egisheim, is noted as deceased in 1046 at Eguisheim, Alsace, France.

Their mother, Helweig von Dagsburg, is noted as also deceased in 1046 at Nordgau, Herzogtum Bayern, Heilges Romisches Reich (Present Germany).

It isn't stated exactly when they died in 1046 so I suppose that one could have moved away from the other during 1046. Are the two locations cited near each other? Your thoughts?

Nordgau was the area around Nurnberg according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_of_the_Nordgau

Eguisheim is currently in France - Alsace has moved back and forth between Germany and France a number of times. But it's not nearby.

Two different ares with the same name.

What is now Alsace was divided into Upper Alsace (Sundgau) and Lower Alsace (Nordgau). The descendants of Duke Eticho (Adalric) ruled both areas, although there is some disagreement about how to sort out the different lines.

However it happened, the counts of Egisheim and Dagsburg were descendants of Eticho -- and their great claim to fame is Pope Leo IX.

No Harald, I think John has spotted an error and that the location of Hedwig's death shown on her profile is 99% likely to be wrong.

I'd say the confusion stems from Google only returning search results for the modern Nordgau (in Germany) whereas she would have died in the medieval Nordgau (in Alsace).

Actually Medlands doesn't even list a location for her death so unless there is another source someone has likely just extrapolated the locations based on the fact that Hugo's title was "Graf im Nordgau und zu Egisheim. "

Justin, can you change Hugo VIII, count in Nordgau & at Egisheim display name to Hugo VIII please.

Actually, even better would be Hugo VIII, count of Nordgau and Egisheim

Done. I'm glad to see you're implementing a consistent numbering system and that it's one easy for other users to find.

Alex Moes of course Justin is right.
Duplicate place names are the bane of data entry. Especially when current databases think they are unique; only local knowledge will catch those.

(and of course the number of people who were born or died in Y, Somme, Picardie, France is just plain staggering....)

Well despite nearly a week focused on this area it still took me five minutes to find the profiles John was looking at, i havent been doing much more than shift profiles around so far, not worrying about names or data yet.

I am really good at copy and pasting the info into the about box, just think that way, some reference to origional info.

When your done, point me to the area, and I can do that there, if you want. I am doing the old areas of my ancestors at present. I just hope it does not offend anyone, but, is good to have info there I feel :)

Just be careful copying info from other sites into the about box on Geni profiles. You risk getting sued for breaking copyright rules.
Genealogical facts can however not be copyrighted, but it is common practice to honor the person(s) which have found those facts and not publish them as your own.

Even if "free" information it is better to just write a summary and link to the original for further reading. For Wikipedia, as an example, it is best that the text is maintained only there and even better since Wikipedia articles can be in multiple languages which there is zero support for in Geni.

Thanks Bjorn, I am only copying the info above the about box, in to the about box. Something I do for relaxation. It means there is a record in case something changes, I thought, plus, gives more for search engines.

I will check my old profiles for that error tho, now, I copy a little bit of text, and have a ref: link and Read More.... link back to the site.
BUT POINT TAKEN Thanks :)

Justin,

What is the significance of "& at Egisheim" instead of "and Egisheim"?

I could speculate but it might be simpler if you just told me, or a link :)

Death location for Helweig changed to "Eguisheim, Haut-Rhin, Alsace, France"

no evidence but certainly a better bet than Bavaria :)

I think it conveys the idea better in English. The German given by MedLands s Graf im Nordgau und zu Egisheim. A native German-speaker might argue that "zu" should be translated as "of" but the way I learned it in college for German titles is to translate "von" as "of", "im" as "in", and "zu" as "at" so English speakers get the benefit of the same nuance German speakers see in the original.

Hugo von Burgund, Bishop of Lausanne should only be connected to Rudolf as a potential child, not as a sibling of Hugo nor child of Hugo's unknown mother.

So a more nuanced understanding might be that Hugo is ONE of the counts of Nordgau and is THE count in Egisheim?

Maybe a little different than that.

He was a count in the Nordgau, meaning he exercised comital authority in that region, but the exact extent of his rule is unknown and (perhaps) partially undefined. In his case, he likely ruled the whole Nordgau but didn't formally hold the title Count of Nordgau. Instead, he and a cousin were equally heirs of the counts or dukes of Alsace and they had divided it between themselves -- "I'll take the Nordgau, you take the Sundgau, and we'll each keeping trying to grab the other half if we can."

And he was count at Egisheim, meaning he had his seat of power and main residence at the castle there. From Egisheim, he ruled the surrounding territory, the area traditionally ruled from Egisheim, whatever that might have been. In this case, probably the whole Nordgau.

Titles at this period didn't work the same way they did later, with clearly defined territories and specific names. A -gau was an old Germanic administrative unit. Under the Frankish kings each gau was ruled through royal officials called counts. When royal authority weakened, the counts in possession at the time managed to turn their royal appointments into an hereditary power base.

Later, in the process of solidifying their gains they began to standardize their titles. German scholars in the 18th and 19th centuries smoothed out the details, added the regnal numbers, and made a nice, orderly system out of the chaos.

MedLands has chosen this dual form, probably from the surviving records, but both titles really mean the same thing. Secondary sources might call this same guy Count of Lower Alsace, Count of Nordgau, Count of Egisheim, etc. As a 16th century noble, your geography tutor was supposed to teach you these things ;)

This is a very approximate explanation that tries to cover both the generalities and the specifics of this case. I don't doubt that someone else will want to jump in to tell me I've left out some vital detail here or that my explanation is a bit misleading there ;)

Well as my 16th century tutor has yet to make an appearance i'll just keep asking you.

How does this translate to the grandson then "Graf von Egisheim und Dachsburg."? Is he still count of Nordgau but holding court in two locations/castles?

In the 10th and 11th centuries, as the old gau structure broke down the local rulers increasingly titled themselves after their castles. Instead of being a count ruling in the king's name over a royal administrative district, they thought of themselves as rulers of the territory ruled from their own administrative center.

So, if this title is from contemporary charters and not from secondary sources (and that would make sense for this period), then you are seeing the transition in action. Egisheim and Dagsburg have now become two counties in what used to be the the single administrative unit of Nordgau. The grandson is no longer "count in" a region and no longer "count at" a particular location. Now he is "count of" the territory. In fact, he is count of two such territories.

I don't know whether it will make a difference to how you see it, but this is also the period when the idea of male-centered lineages emerges. From this period (or slightly before), the family becomes a "house" that takes its name from its principal castle. All men related in the male line begin to belong to the same house-family-dynasty. It's not a coincidence that this is the period when most of the earliest German noble genealogies begin, when they begin to self-consciously preserve their history as a unit.

It's also the period when noble families started inventing romantic stories about their origin. Their historical consciousness generally didn't go back before the building of the castle from which they took their name. The Egisheim-Dagsburgs had no idea they were descended from the illustrious Duke Eticho until genealogists in the 15th and 16th centuries started tracing their ancestry.

I don't know what to say to that, "wow" is about the best i can do.

I think Bernhard I Graf von Werl might be a duplicate for Bernard, Graf im Lerigau und Dersigau

Either way he is causing a data conflict for Hermann II, count of Werl who is definitely not Bernhard's son, please sever that link however you do.

That one should be easy to sort out, but tomorrow when my mind is fresher. It's 6 a.m. here, I've been up all night. I have an important board meeting in a few hours. I don't trust myself to do something even that simple right now. Okay?

Sleep tite Justin :)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_II._(Werl)

Hermann II, Graf von Werl is your 30th great grandfather. :)
You guys are legends.

He died 985 years ago, he can wait till after your day job :)

Hermann II, Graf von Werl is your 26th great uncle.

In my software, he is my 28th GGrandfather, so, need to check things again. No matter, as long as it is correct, would be good to have them locked when right, so, this does not have to be done over and over.

This lady is married to Herman 1 seems similar to Bernard 1

She was a daughter of King Conrad III. the peacemakers (Pacificus), Duke of Burgundy ( Guelph ), and his second wife Matilda of France, daughter of Louis IV of France . It was further a niece of Empress Adelheid and King Lothair of France and a great-niece of Otto I. . thus she was both the Carolingians as well as with the Ottos related.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerberga_von_Burgund

But, I don't mess in these old European profiles.

See Family Search they got info on Hillegarde de Ferrette as well.

Gerhard von Egisheim
- 1038 (Ancestral File Number: 55JX-QNX)
View Individual Summary
Hedwig von Egisheim
death: 1118

Gerhard von Egisheim
death: 1038
more
spouse:
Petronelle de Verdun
death:
Eberhard V von Egisheim
death: 0999
Hugh V von Hohenbourg
death:
Hawise
death:

Additional Information for Gerhard von Egisheim
Notes (1)

Date of Import: Apr 30, 2003
Sources (1)

Tallman04.FTW
Citing This Record

"Pedigree Resource File," database, FamilySearch (http://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/9WCC-C3C : accessed 2014-06-12), entry for Gerhard von Egisheim, submitted by glii2761049.
Submission

submission id:MM9R-3MB
contributor:glii2761049 date:5/22/2003
person count:27039

Most of us know, but it's worth repeating - some areas of the Personal Ancestral Files part of familysearch.org, especially the ancient lines, are a total disaster area with respect to accuracy - it is very hard to tell what information is correct, which is wrong, and which is just plain fantasy.

Their new tree is a lot better - but it's better to search for sources, if you can.

Full circle back to Private User's original question i can confirm that the family of Heinrich I, count of Egisheim is very badly muddled.

He is my first cousin 29 times removed,

and, the profile I was on:
Mary Anne Massy is Heinrich, count of Egisheim's first cousin 22 times removed.

Mary Anne Massy
Interesting links.

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