Knut den harde - Ancestors

Started by Harald Tveit Alvestrand on Thursday, May 1, 2014
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5/1/2014 at 1:13 AM

We have multiple conflicting sources and theories about who Hardeknut's parents were, and if he can be identified with any other persons mentioned in sources that claim to describe the period.

This discussion is intended to bring forth the sources and theories, so that we can get them properly represented on the profile.

Private User
5/1/2014 at 5:02 AM

@http://www.geni.com/path/Judy+Rice+is+related+to+Knut+den+harde?fro... is my 32 grt grandfather and i did not know their were conflicting sources Judy Rice

5/1/2014 at 8:15 AM

It was 3 Hardeknut.
The parents to the first one is unknown.

Harald Moberg

5/1/2014 at 9:54 AM

Harald Moberg I know of two - Knut Sweynson and Harthacnut, King of Denmark and England - who's the third one?

5/1/2014 at 12:35 PM

Sorry! I printet 3 for two. You are right.

Harald

5/1/2014 at 10:23 PM

Adam af Bremen and several other sorces states that Hardeknut is son of Sweyn. Another mention af Erik. With Sweyn the sorces have no agreement on who he is and where he came from.
The problem with some of the lines back to Ragnar Lodbrog is the time lines. Their is a big jump from the start of 800 to the beginning of 900 where HArdeknut and Gorm his son is places.

5/2/2014 at 7:52 AM

In The Oxford History of England, Anglo-Saxon England by Sir Frank Stenton, it is only one Harthacnut. Son of Knut and Emma of Normandy.

Harthacnut died the 8th of june 1042. It was deth of male line from Knut and Emma.

Harthacnut claimd kngship of England, Denmark and Norway. Knut are a common name in Scandinavia. The only one I can think of as an anothrt Knut, is Knut den Mektige at the same time as Olav Trygvasson in Norway.

Who are Knut den harde? Is it possible that he was Hardecnut. There are trouble whenn somone are trying to Connect ancestors to Danish, English, Norwegian kings so long back in history.

5/2/2014 at 10:29 AM

Harald Moberg that's the second Hardaknut mentioned above. There's 200 years of different, so it's certainly not the same man.

We haven't yet seen a certain source from England that definitely identifies the first Hardaknut.

5/2/2014 at 11:13 PM

This Hardeknut here is also born after Gorm, so he can not be the candidate as Gorms father.
In Saxo and in the Roskilde Chronicle they mmention a HArdeknut years after Gorm. We kan rule him out.
Most of the sagas say that HArdeknuts father is a Eric, but thats where they end their agreement.

5/3/2014 at 1:08 AM

Hej her et pudsig vending.

Guldharald kræver Hælften af Danmark

49. Kort efter talte Guldharald med sin Frænde Kong Harald i Nærværelse af mange anseelige Mænd og fælleds Venner. Guldharald krævede af Kongen, at han skulde dele Riget med ham i Betragtning af hans Fødsel og Herkomst der i Danmark. Ved denne Fordring blev Kong Harald meget opbragt, og svarede saaledes: “Ingen Mand dristede sig til at kræve det af min Fader Konning Gorm, at han skulde være Halvkonning over Danmarks Rige, ej heller af hans Fader Haardeknud eller af Sigurd Orm i Øje eller af Ragnar Lodbrok.” Og han blev nu saa forbitret og rasende, at det ikke var mueligt at faae et Ord indført hos ham. Guldharald var nu meget værre tilfreds end tilforn, eftersom han ikke havde faaet mere Rige end før, men derimod Kongens Vrede; han kom da til sin Ven Hakon, og klagede sin Nød, og bad ham give et godt Raad, om han vidste noget, at han kunde faae Riget, men lagde til, at han var helst til Sinds, at vinde Riget med Magt og Vaaben.” “Saadanne Ord maa du ikke lade noget Menneske høre,” svarede Hakon, “thi kommer det for Kongens Øren, vil det koste dit Liv; men overtænk først vel hos dig selv, hvad du formaaer, thi til saa stort et Anslag er det nødvendigt, at man maa være dristig og urokkelig, og hverken spare Ondt eller Godt, for at drive det igjennem, som man har begyndt; men det duer ikke, at begynde paa store Planer og opgive dem med Vanære.” “Denne min Beslutning er saa fast og urokkelig,” svarede Guldharald, “at ej skal jeg spare mine egne Hænder, til at dræbe Kongen selv, om han vil nægte mig det Rige, som jeg er berettiget til.” Hermed endte de deres Samtale. Kort efter kom ogsaa Kong Harald til Hakon, og han fortalte nu denne, hvilket Krav Guld-Harald var kommen med til ham, og hvad Svar han havde givet. “Jeg vil paa ingen Maade formindske mit Rige,” lagde han til, “og om Guldharald ikke vil opgive denne Fordring, da bryder jeg mig kun lidt om, at lade ham dræbe, thi vil han ikke afstaae derfra, troer jeg ham ikke godt.” “Det troer jeg,” svarede Jarlen, “at Guldharald har med saa alvorligt Forsæt begyndt denne Sag, at han ingenlunde vil opgive den; og det frygter jeg for, at, begynder han Ufred her i Landet, da ville mange Folk strømme til ham, og mest fordi Hans Fader var saa almindelig elsket; men at dræbe eders Frænde, det vil vorde anseet for den største Ugjerning, thi alle ville holde ham for uskyldig, eftersom Sagerne staae. Dog er det derfor heller ikke mit Raad, at du gjør dig selv til ringere Konning end din Fader Konning Gorm, thi han forøgede sit Rige meget, men formindskede det i ingen Maade.” “Hvad er da dit Raad, Hakon!” spurgde Kongen, “naar du ikke vil, at jeg skal dele Riget, men dog vil, at jeg skal blive befriet fra min Frygt.” “Kom om nogle Dage,” svarede Jarlen, “saa vil jeg imidlertid overtænke denne vanskelige Sag, og finder vel da nok paa at give noget Raad.” Kongen gik da bort med sine Mænd.

5/3/2014 at 1:18 AM

Haardeknud er søn af Sigurd Orm og Kong Ellas Datter Blæja opkladt efter det sted han er født i Jylland Hørd.

62. Kong Knud lod stævne til et Hovedthing, og paa dette Thing lyste han for Folket, at, om der fandtes noget Menneske, fremmed eller indfødt, der kunde give ham sikker Underretning om hans Slægt, da vilde han ophøje ham til Rigdom og Magt. Dette spurgdes vidt omkring. Og nu fortæller man, at en Aften kom to saxiske Mænd til Kong Knuds Hof, og da de fik Kongen i Tale, tog den fornemste af dem Ordet, og spurgde: “Er det sandt, Herre! at I har lovet den Mand stor Belønning, som kan underrette eder om eders Æt.” Kongen sagde, at det var sandt, og svor paa, at han skulde ogsaa vel opfylde dette sit Løfte. “Skulle ligesaavel Trælle som fri Mænd opnaae dette?” spurgde Gjæsten videre. “Ja derpaa skal ingen Forskel gjøres,” sagde Kongen. “Saa har jeg nu først at fortælle dig,” sagde den Fremmede, “at jeg og denne min Ledsager ere Trælle hos en Jarl i Saxland, men vi kunne give dig sikker Underretning om din Æt: Arnfin Jarl herskede over Holdseteland, vi vare da hans Trælle, men dog tillige hans Fortrolige; det hændtes nu, at Jarlen avlede et Barn med sin Søster, og det blev holdt hemmelig, og da hun fødte Barnet, blev det svøbt i Silkeklæder, uden om hvilke der blev knyttet et linned Klæde, og deri bleve knyttede tre Guldringe; derpaa overgav man denne Dreng til os, at vi skulde ombringe ham. Vi droge da hen i Skoven Myrkvid, og bare Barnet langt ind i Skoven, og lagde det ned ved Rødderne af et Træ, og ginge siden bort.” Og disse Mænd sagde nu nøjagtige Mærker om, hvor de havde baaret Barnet hen, saa at de Trælle, som havde fundet det, erkjendte, at det var paa samme Sted. Kong Knud gav da de saxiske Trælle Penge at udløse sig med af Trældommen, og bad dem dernæst komme til sig. De gjorde saa, og da de kom tilbage til Kong Knud, gav han ogsaa sine Trælle, som havde fundet ham, Frihed, og gav dernæst alle de Frigivne Jarldømme, og gjorde dem alle til mægtige Mænd, som han havde lovet. Deraf blev han kaldt Trælle-Knud. Han havde en Søn, som han lod kalde Gorm efter sin Fosterfader. Trælle-Knud raadede ikke længe over Riget, men blev dog en navnkundig Konge. Efter ham blev hans Søn Gorm tagen til Konge, og styrede Riget under Ragnar Lodbroks Sønner, og var mest i Gunst hos Sigurd Orm i Øje; han opfostrede den Søn, Sigurd havde med Kong Ellas Datter Blæja; Gorm øste Vand paa denne Dreng, gav ham Navn og opkaldte ham efter sin Fader Knud; han blev siden kaldt Haardeknud efter det Sted Hørd i Jylland, hvor han blev født.

5/3/2014 at 1:45 AM

I recon that is why he is somtimes mentioned as Haardeknud Wo(u)rm (Orm), I know that many translate the word Wurm into Gorm, but it make more sense it actually is Wo(u)rm as in Orm.

5/3/2014 at 2:07 AM

One more passage from "Store Saga"

Gorm Danekonnings Riges Begyndelse

63. Ragnar Lodbroks Sønner vare store Krigere, de hævnede deres Fader og dræbte Kong Ella i England. Da blev Ivar hin Beenløse Konge over den Deel af England, som hans Ætmænd og Slægtninge før havde ejet; han forøgede sit Rige paa mange Maader, og lod dræbe Kong Edmund hin Hellige, og underlagde sig hans Rige. Det fortælles, at Ragnar Lodbroks Sønner af alle Høvdinger i Oldtiden førte de fleste Krige; de hærjede paa alle disse Lande: England, Valland, Frankland, Saxland, og lige ud til Lombardiet; det længste de kom, var til den Borg, som hed Luna, hvilken de indtoge, og en Tid havde de ogsaa i Sinde at indtage Romeborg. Da de kom tilbage, skiftede de Riget imellem sig saaledes, at Bjørn Jærnside fik Upsalarige, hele Sverrig og begge Gotlande og alle de Lande, som der ligge til. Sigurd Orm i Øje fik Øgoteland og alle Øerne, Skaane og Halland; Hvitsærk fik Rejdgoteland tilligemed Vindland. Sigurd Orm i Øje havde Kong Ellas Datter Blæja tilægte, deres Søn var Haardeknud, som før berettedes. Haardeknud var Konge i Danmark over Sjælland og Skaane efter sin Fader, Da Haardeknud var fuldvoxen, giftede han sig, og avlede med sin Kone en Søn, som han lod kalde Gorm efter sin Fosterfader, Kong Knud hin Fundnes Søn. Trælle-Knuds Søn Gorm havde været en meget mægtig Konge, thi han styrede hele Danmark paa Ragnars Sønners Vegne, medens de droge i Krigsfærd. Da Haardeknuds Søn Gorm voxte op, var han den dejligste Mand, man kunde see for sine Øjne, han var derhos stor og stærk, og fortrinlig i alle Færdigheder; dog ansaaes han ikke for at besidde den Viisdom, som hans Frænder før ham vare i Orde for. Da Gorm var voxen, fik han en Kone, ved Navn Thyre, en Datter af den Harald Jarl i Jylland, som kaldtes Klakharald.

I have know doubt that "Store Saga", might be one of the sources that is closesed to be correct.

5/3/2014 at 2:16 AM

The lineage of Haardeknuds would then be.

Sigurd Orm and Blæja had the son Hardeknud Worm.

Haardeknud and his wife ? Had the son Gorm also know as Gorm the old.

Gorm married the daughter of Klakharald Thyre(a) ? And their son is Harald Blåtand.

I think that is somehow the llineage of the beginngin of the Royal Kingdom of Denmark.

5/3/2014 at 5:06 AM

Sigurd Orm-i-Øyet (Sigurd wom in the eye) was one of the sons of Ragnar Lodbrok.

Most estimates of when Ragnar Lodbrok lived say that it's too early for him to have Hardeknut as a grandson. One theory I've seen is that the writer of "Store Saga" used a source where the relationship was the word for "descendant", and he chose to read it as "son". Per's quote seems pretty clear that the author of Store Saga was talking about him as the son of SIgurd and Bleja.

5/4/2014 at 12:47 AM

I have to agree with you Harald. There is a big jumb from Ragnar Lodbrog og op til Gorm, når man ser på tidslinjen.
I do believe that the sagas have the core of the story right. I just dont think Hardeknut can be a grandson of Ragnar. a descendant yes.
The one Gorm the Old that might fit here is the one Saxo mention as Gorm the English. That would fit the timeline.
I think their might be missing a couple of links.

5/4/2014 at 12:48 AM

And offcause. Adam of Bremen also states that HArdeknut is son of Sweyn. Who is he then??

5/4/2014 at 1:13 AM

It seems clear what we have to write in the "about me".

== Hardeknut according to Adam of Bremen ==
say what he says

== Hardeknut according to the Greater Olav Trygvasson's Saga ==
say what he says

Are there any third sources we need to list? We could also include here a link to Peter Lawaetz' reading of the sources, which gives a third theory.

5/4/2014 at 8:29 AM

Well Lawætz is out. He is disregarding most of the sorces and make them fit as he wants If we are taking into regard all the different theories about who hardeknut his, its going to be a very long " About me"

I think we need to stick to the sorces close to the time.

Here so far what we got as you say Harald.

Hardeknut son of King Sweyn.
Hardeknut as son of Sigurd Orm i Øje

I think that is about as close as we get, if we stay with the written sorces from close to the time.
Thats my opinion on the subject.

5/4/2014 at 10:40 AM

Here is a critical review of the sources that mention the Danish kings at this time and the links between them. It's in Danish and it looks that it is written by Bent Østergaard in 1994: https://tidsskrift.dk/index.php/historiejyskesamling/article/viewFi...

I found it interesting but I'm not good enough in the sources for the Danish history around this time to say how good a review this is. Maybe Anette can read through it and then comment on it.

5/4/2014 at 11:06 AM

I can say already now that this is a journal that is taken serious by historians in Denmark, so when a review has made it their it, has some merrit.

I have not read it yet but I will.

5/4/2014 at 2:33 PM

Interesting reading. I see that this author completely ignores Snorre and "Store Saga", and focuses on Adam of Bremen and other southerly sources.

That may make sense. Snorre is 200 years later than Adam of Bremen, and the Greater Tryggvason's saga is even later than that (around 1300 according to Wikipedia).

BTW, I don't think "Store Saga" was ever in Latin. The manuscripts mentioned all seem to be Old Norse.

5/4/2014 at 4:55 PM

I haven't had time to participate in this discussion, but I'm catching up now. I think almost everything has been said that needs to be said. There are three main sources and they all give a different answer -- Sweyn according to Adam of Bremen, Sigurd according to Ragnarssona þáttr, and Erik (a descendant of Ragnar Lodbrok) according to Saxo Grammaticus.

Adam of Bremen seems the most reliable, so I think we can say Hardaknut's father was Sweyn, but beyond that we don't know. The discussion about how Sweyn might link to the others is something that belongs in the Overview (as Harald suggested).

We've said several time on other discussions that Ragnar Lodbrok is thought to be a composite figure -- a real person whose biography has acquired elements from other stores. There is a strong suspicion around him that genealogies have been manipulated to link to him. Another reason for caution in this area.

5/5/2014 at 6:51 AM

I have read the link Remi posted. It does confirm the conflict among the sorces. Which is what makes this link Valid.

Lots of the books on the subject used, are also some what outdated.

It also has the same problem as Lawætz theory. He tries to find the origin of Sweyn and HArdeknut thrue the names of the later kings and there names.
None of the names of these people are unusual for the time, so there can be nothing proven through that, which he also atmit.

So I think again we have another theory among others. So I will have to agree with Justin on this.
The historians of Denmark usually also profer Adam of Bremen as their sorce even if it is an unsure one.
How Sweyn fits in with the rest is indeed imposible to say.
When that is said I think, if we put Sweyn as Hardeknuts father, that we have to put " in about me" the other posibilities and some of the conflicts of the sorces.

5/5/2014 at 10:46 AM

I think that if we aren't able to make one of them as more reliable than the others, then neither fathers should be linked to and only mentioned in the About me section. If we think we can make one of the fathers more reliable, we can link to that person and state out reasons for doing so at the top of the About me, so it is easily seen by the users. Maybe also mention where it is written in the curatornote. Since Svein is probably the most reliable candidate this line should stop with him.

5/6/2014 at 3:22 AM

Well Sweyn Sigurdson I recon is the son of Sigur Orm in eye, That makes Hardeknut the grandson of Sigur orm and then he might still be born in Hørd in Jylland

5/6/2014 at 4:28 AM

What we got.

Sigurd Hring son Ragnar Lodbrok

Ragnar Lodbrok married Tora Borgahjort daughter of Herraud jarl of Gautland.

Tora and Ragnars sons Eirik and Agnar fell in the same battle.

After Tora died of illness, Ragnar married Aslaug Kraka, the daughter of Sigurd Favnesbane and Bryhild Budlaugsdaughter.

They had the sons Ivar the boneless, Bjørn Ironside, Hvitserk, Røgvald and Sigurd snake in eye.

Auslaug later took the name Randalin after two of her sons was killed in battle. She is belived to have outlived all her sons.

Sigurd had the daughter Ragnhild Sigurdsdottir who gave birth to a son Harald who later became Harald Hårfager.

He also might have had the son Sweyn Sigurdson, who some of you belive is the father of Hardeknut.

5/6/2014 at 6:02 AM

Per Skulason which sources are you quoting? (I know I'm sounding like a broken record on this, but it matters.)

5/6/2014 at 11:04 AM

And I have to ask how trustworthy they are. Primary sources? Sagas written centuries later? Or something in between?

5/6/2014 at 11:49 PM

@Harald

It a summerie I made based on some of the Sagas.

The Saga writers mentioned the lineage, I have various so far and I can't find any major disagreement amongst them. I haven't got much time today and tomorrow but I will try listing the sources later also an English source if I can find it again.

Start with Ragnar lodbroks Saga.

@Remi

Well if you do not belive in the Sagas and the sources in the Sagas, well you end you lineage in the middle of the 16 or 17 century.
The Sagas is what you got when you go further backwards, not to mention some of the runestones.
I do not find that 200 years or 300 years is that big an issue. You have more than one Saga writer, theire storries might varry at some points but not a great deal, it all comes down to the eyes and the sources they have used when they wrote their storries.

If you wearing sunglasses with blue glass the world to you is blue.
If you wear the same sunglasses with red glass the the world to you is red
If you wearing sunglassess with smoked glass, the world to you is black.

It all comes down to what the storryteller see and hear and how the storrie is put to papper.

Do you belive that what you read in yesterdays paper is a valid sources and trusthworthy? No, as primary sources you will have a hard time beliving the storries you see in the news, newspapers ec. you just telle me are they more trustworthy than the Sagas writen down by different Sagawriters all with different backgrounds.

The storrie always have more sides to it, depending on what you would like the reader to think, therefore we belive that the western press is more correct than the eastern press at least when the ironcurtain still diveded Europe.

What do you belive is a trustworthy Primary source?

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