Defining a Matriarch - de Ruelle/Bruere family

1) Progenitor: the oldest DNA mother in a family who came to SA. (Will incl women who only had daughters, but also Daan's Ouma Wiese - who wasn't married to the SV)

2) In the cases where this means that the wife of the SV is not acknowledged as the Matriarch of his Surname Line of male descendants, then, I suggest we add a profile image that acknowledges her as the SM/Matriarch (Moved the SM name here, to fit with Daan's point that this is the definition of an SM in SA genealogy tradition, and not the 'oldest mother = Prog one.)

3) If she is both the oldest mother and married to an SV then she is SV/PROG (old image)

I love the image. Again, I like the colour one better, but agree that the pink one fits with the other images better.

I don't see that we need a 3rd image - I am obviously being dense here!! Surely the SM/PROG covers the Progenitor?

We could use the colour one it is similar but very different - but I think there is enough of a difference between the two pinky ones.

Yes, mostly it does - but there will be cases - like Daan's widowed Ouma Wiese, for eg - where the Progenitor is not a Matriarch/SM (wife of the SV).

Then as these will be few and far between (?) a curator note is sufficient - or what would you like to see an image? I can add to the "image family" easily enough if I know what you want in it?

When you are clear Sharon can you work out a definition of SM/PROG and SM?Matriarch for the page?

Same Image, except with "Progenitor" as the words, maybe.

It will cover all the widowed oumas who arrive, and also all those who have only daughters.

Deserves a profile image I think.

Okay, my pleasure to do that.

Same image as the SM/Matiarch? but with Progenitor instead of Matriarch ? - I think it is very confusing - to really get everyone to understand the difference between the SM/PROG and the SM/Progenitor??? Maybe a note would be better so as to not get into a muddle?

Okay, well have a look at the definitions I'm trying to do on the project - and see how clearly (or not :-)) they read to you.

can you link to actual profiles that can be view on the tree?

Not with that example because it was thumb suck extrapolation of Daan's Ouma Wiese case, in order to demonstrate all permutations. But I have a feeling he didn't provide a link to her profile because she's still alive :-)

I can use your far more complex example, underneath, though. I started to provide a tentative answer to it, but still wanted to have you guys all watching my logic.
(My head is overheating :-) and I realised, too that we've never noticed the possibility for the oupas with daughters only to be just PROGs as well. ) Arggggh :-)

OK will add a diagram

Added illustration

Eish, and then like a miracle it appears!! I do not know how to do that and it's damn impressive :-)

I have now got the images i suggest we use for these 3 types

1) PROG - http://www.geni.com/photo/view/4560155096930045739?album_type=proje...=

2) SM - http://www.geni.com/photo/view/4560155096930045739?album_type=proje...=

3) SM/PROG http://www.geni.com/photo/view/4560155096930045739?album_type=proje...=

Brilliant!!

Sorry been a bit out of the loop lately... Who is creating the images June? and what does the black bands signify...and the Chinese writing??

Don - I have used the Kun trigram mother/earth symbols in the images.

I will leave this to the experts...but shouldnt Anna Bierens the Prog/SM?

Anna Wolfferum, SM/PROG

Another one... Anna Maria Schwartz

SM or Prog ?

Ha! Great stuff - adding to the workforce :-)

First - do we know where Anna Bierens died, Michelle?

Yes, will make Anna Swart SM/PROG (oldest mother of arrival family; and wife of an SV)

She died in SA -

DEPOT KAB SOURCE MOOC TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 13/1/128 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 13 PART 1 DESCRIPTION BIERENS, ANNA. WIDOW OF WOLFFERUM, MARTINUS. LIQUIDATION AND

DISTRIBUTION ACCOUNT.
STARTING 18470000 ENDING 18470000

Nog een -- Johanna Petronella Margaretha Klopper

wife of an SV/Prog therefore a SM?

Yes, correct :-) Can you edit, Michelle, or do you need me to?
She might even be a PROG if we can find out more about her.

I'm making Anna Bierens a PROG, awaiting more data on whether her husband was SV.

Wolfferum definitely a SV so Anna Bierens must be SM/PROG?

go girls! :-)

Another one of my granny's I am not sure about...... I would think she is SM and Prog. But then what about her daughters?

Lysbeth van Bengale, SM/PROG