Elizabeth Rogers

I just came across something interesting on Rootsweb. It has been suggested that a mitochondrial DNA test from a female line from Joseph Rogers could be used to compare to a female line from Walter Woodworth. Does anyone know if that would work? If yes, how would we find these people???

Thomas Rogers, "Mayflower" Passenger

Erica Howton Can you chime in here? I see that Janet has added a daughter Elizabeth. I am a descendant of John Rogers, the son, who came to America the next year, but I don't know anything about Elizabeth, nor why there would not have already been a profile for her since she appears in the About Me (unless she was just added??).

Here is what the Thomas Rogers Society says and I would take them as the absolute LAST word on the earliest Rogers:

Elizabeth Rogers was baptized on 26 December 1609 at Watford, co. Northamptonshire, England. She was the daughter of Thomas Rogers [Mayflower Pilgrim] and Alice Cosford.2 (prob. m. here & had issue; Eugene Stratton speculates in Plymouth Colony, Its History & People, 1620-1691, p. 288, that she might be the Elizabeth, wife of Samuel Eddy).

Citations

[S1] Ann T. [Revised by], (Originally compiled by Alice W. A. Westgate) Reeves, Mayflower Families Through Five Generations: Descendants of the Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth, Mass. December 1620: Family of Thomas Rogers (Plymouth, MA: General Society of Mayflower Descendants, 2000), p. 2. Hereinafter cited as Rogers-Silver.

[S1] Ann T. [Revised by], (Originally compiled by Alice W. A. Westgate) Reeves, Mayflower Families Through Five Generations: Descendants of the Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth, Mass. December 1620: Family of Thomas Rogers (Plymouth, MA: General Society of Mayflower Descendants, 2000), 1:2. Hereinafter cited as Rogers-Silver.

Helps to tag the Walter Woodworth, of Scituate profile also - Janet & I cleaned up this family tree.

The questions are

- Did Thomas Rogers have a daughter Elizabeth
- what are her vital statistics (those need to be filled in to the profile)
- did she survive
- did she emigrate to America
- who did she marry
- did she have children
- how can we prove any of this

There are notes in the Walter Woodworth profile

from Payne-Joyce Genealogy of Scituate Mass
Walter Woodworth. Born ca 1612 in Kent, England.5 Walter died in bet 26 Nov 1685 and 25 Feb 1685/6 in Scituate, MA.5

Woodworth, also Woodward, Wodworth, Woodard, etc.

“Walter Woodworth came from Kent Co., England, to Scituate, Mass., 1635. He was assigned the third lot on Kent St., which runs along the ocean front, at the corner of Meeting House Lane, and there he built a house. In that year he owned other land, a tract on the First Herring Brook not far below Stockbridge Mill, where afterwards stood the residence of the poet Samuel Woodworth, and another tract on Walnut Tree Hill, just west of the present [1901] Greenbush or South Scituate R. R. Station, which was in early times called Walter Woodworth’s Hill, and in 1666 he became a purchaser of sixty acres at Weymouth. In 1640 Walter was assessed nine shillings for the public use, and March 2, 1641, freeman; and in Jun 4, 1645, he was appointed surveyor of highways in Scituate, and again in 1646 and 1656. His name appears frequently on the town records of Scituate as juror, etc. In 1654 he was a member of the First Church, which ordained Charles Chauncy as their minister.”120

“Walter Woodworth was freeman in Scituate 1640, and settled amongst the men of Kent, 3d. lot on Kent street, south side of Meeting-house land in 1635. He had other lands in 1635, viz. on the first Herring brook 30 rods below Stockbridge’s mill: and on the northwest side of Walnut tree hill. He left no record of the births of his children; from incidental records we find Benjamin, Walter, Thomas, Joseph, Mary, wife of Aaron Simons 1677, Martha, the wife of Lieut. Zachary Daman 1679, Mehitable, who was unfortunate in regard to her health, (see witchcraft.)”6

It has been frequently speculated that Walter’s wife was Elizabeth Rogers, b. ca. 1620, daughter of Thomas (ca 1586-12 Nov 1638) and Mary Rogers. But evidence for that conclusion remains lacking.
Also, proof is needed that Walter’s parents are Thomas and Elizabeth (Tyson) Woodworth.

Children:
2457 Thomas Woodworth (ca 1641-3 Mar 1718/9)

2458 ii. Sarah Woodworth (ca 1643-)

2459 iii. Joseph Woodworth (ca 1645-1712/8)

2460 iv. Elizabeth Woodworth (ca 1648-1709)

2461 v.Mary Woodworth (10 Mar 1650/1-23 Aug 1718)

2462 vi.Benjamin Woodworth (ca 1656-22 Apr 1728)

2463 vii. Isaac Woodworth (ca 1658-1 Apr 1714)

2464 viii. Martha Woodworth (ca 1660-aft Jun 1730)

2465 ix. Mehitable Woodworth (15 Aug 1662-)

from Scituate Historical Sociery: Walter Woodworth was in Scituate by 20 Feb 1634 as he was named as an abutter in a grant of land to Anthony Annable at First Herring Brook. On 10 Oct 1634 a four acre lot, the third lot on the south side of Meeting House Lane, was allotted to him.

I find Pane-Joyce usually an excellent site, well documented and coming to thoughtful conclusions. Good addition, Marion!

The best thing is that it cites fairly reliable sources, where they exist, and brings to light controversies. It is many times more trustworthy than the marjority of Internet family trees.

Occasionally of course Pane-Joyce is wrong, usually where I know the family better in obscure branches or youngest children. So take it always with a grain of salt.

Thanks so much Hatte, Marian and Erica. Both families are well known and well documented but no one has an answer for Elizabeth Rogers marrying Walter Woodworth. I think DNA will be the only way to verify it. I've contacted someone that might be from Joseph Rogers' maternal line and she is willing if we can trace her lineage through her maternal line to make sure. Now just need to find someone from a daughter of Walter Woodworth's line following maternal only and we could compare them for mitochondrial DNA - at least that's how I think it works.

Janet, I'm skeptical about DNA because I share very little DNA with my fourth cousin. It is true that I share a LOT of DNA with my 6th cousin, but Elizabeth Rogers and Walter Woodworth are about 9 or 10 generations distant. Also anyone who is descended from early families is descended from multiple early families so it's nearly impossible to prove where the shared DNA came from unless you have a lot of people tested. I'm talking about autosomal now.

I was trying to get my head around the mtDNA argument and see if it makes sense. Do you have one of those charts that shows the pattern of inheritance of mtDNA?

When I first glanced over Marian's quote from Payne-Joyce Genealogy, I thought it was supporting the idea that Walter Woodworth's wife was the daughter of @Thomas Rogers, "Mayflower" Passenger. But when I read more carefully, I saw that the speculation is that Elizabeth is the daughter of a different Thomas Rogers (1586-1638).

Master profile
Thomas Rogers, of Watertown
He had a wife named Mary, no children shown on Geni, and lived his later life in the Scituate area.

This Thomas Rogers was not in the family of the Mayflower passenger.

But I think what you are suggesting is that he might have been the father of an Elizabeth Rogers married to Walter Woodworth?

I see this daughter Elizabeth Smith

(Display name was incorrect - I cleared it)

Not sure this is the same person Payne Joyce was referring to.

Yes, Hatte, I think the frequent speculation that Payne-Joyce refers to is clearly not about the Mayflower passenger, and the Thomas Rogers Jr is a pretty close match to the information given in Payne-Joyce. The death date is not in agreement, but other (not so reliable) internet sources give the 12 Nov 1638 death date (Duxbury, Plymouth, MA) for Thomas Rogers who has the same christening (see his timeline) date and place and father as the one on Geni.

I agree that the speculation is likely based on a family with similar names and it seems that Elizabeth Rogers, daughter of Thomas Rogers, the Mayflower passenger, married someone else per the citation in Pane-Joyce.

What I like to ferret out in these cases was likely that someone with a common name was THE person in question. Usually if there are other clues and the population is very small, the hypothesis seems likely. I would certainly look at the given names pattern.

I wouldn't discount Governor Bradford. There were other children. The information from Leydon, Holland is significant too. If we are going to speculate, like Payne-Joyce, I would like to be positive and hope that Elizabeth Rogers is the wife of Walter Woodworth. There are lots of people that believe it to be true. Only the DNA would prove it once and for all. All other avenues have been travelled.

I found this online: Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is passed from a mother to her children. Fathers cannot pass on their mtDNA, only the extra genetic information on their Y chromosome. Because mtDNA only comes from the mother, it does not change very much, if at all, from generation to generation. Mutations do occur, but not very often--less frequently than once per 100 people. Therefore, a person's mtDNA is probably identical to that of his or her direct maternal ancestor a dozen generations ago, and this fact can be used to connect people across decades. For example, if a particular type of mtDNA was found primarily in Africa, then we could conclude that people from elsewhere in the world who had that type of mtDNA had a maternal ancestor from Africa.

This is from the Richmond family, direct descendants of Mayflower passengers:

"Thomas Rogers became a citizen of Leyden, Holland on June 25, 1618 with the sponsors William Jepson and Roger Wilson, and was called a Camelot-merchant. Two years later on April 1, 1620, he sold his house in Leyden before coming to America on the Mayflower."

Historian Jeremy Bangs is doing good work in the Leyden Archives, here's an introduction

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/the-pilgrims-before-plymouth-1...

I'm pretty sure I looked a while back to see if anything more has been dug out & validated on these families that need Geni profile updates. We did seem to be in sync.

don't know if this will help or not but found this about Rogers family
http://www.rogersdna.com/history/index.htm

The line of descent to James Rogers of New London is at this time uncertain. Research of Charlie Rogers shows the line of descent through Bernard Rogers, son of John and Adrian (Pratt) Rogers, who was born in 1543 at Wittenburg, Saxony-Anhault, Deutschland through his eldest son, Thomas Matthew Rogers who was born in 1565. Bernard Rogers married Mary about 1564 at Scotland, moved from Scotland to England and died in 1583. Barnard and Mary Rogers children were:
1. Thomas Matthew Rogers born 1565, married about 1586, Miss McMurds
2. Jiles [Giles] Rogers
3. Samuel Rogers -- was father of:
a. Robert Rogers who married Francis Russell –
Robert and Francis Rogers were parents of:
i. Hugh Rogers
Early research believed Thomas Matthew Rogers to be the father of Thomas Rogers of the Mayflower and James of New London, Connecticut to be the son of Thomas of the Mayflower. Recent research and DNA tests have proven that Thomas of the Mayflower was not a son of descent of John, the Smithfield Martyr and that James of New London, Connecticut is not the son of Thomas of the Mayflower.

Further research needs to be done to verify the family line of James Rogers who came to America in 1635 on the Ship Increase who is thought to have been born 2 February 1615 in Stratford on Avon, Warwickshire, England and who died 6 February 1687 in New London, Connecticut. It is my prayer that this document of the research of so many will assist in the quest for the parents of our Rogers line and those other maternal direct lines that connect to it.