Gorm "den Gamle", dansk konge - Birthplace and parentage

@Remi Tryggve Pedersen - "the nordic historians"... - is your next mission to strike out Ragnar Lodbrok too here on Geni - because as you claim "nordic historians" wan't our Saga to be as they want?

Please - Remi come up with some scholarly material based on facts and proof when you try to "invent the wheel" here on Geni....

And further more - name all those "Nordic historians" you are referring to so we can have them verify your claims and have their own version of their opinion.. - The list should be interesting, since you hint that there are ALL Nordic historians that share your "opinion"..

Goddag Svend,

Alle er velkommen i forum uanset nationalitet, og videns niveau.

Jeg har en tilføjelse til Sagn Kongerne. Der er de listet så godt det nu lader sig gøre udfra sagn.

http://www.fortidensjelling.dk/Sagnkongerne.htm

Forhåbentligt er der ingen der forsøger at ødelægge det for andre.

Forumet er et debat forum, hvor emner af interesse drøftes, det er ikke bergenet til at "Nedgører eller på anden vis chikanerer medlemmer på Geni, herunder forulemper brugere/curatorer eller andre"

Online slægtstræer, jeg benytter forskellige og de er bygget op nogenlunde identiske, brugerne laver alt arbejdet, ejerne skummer fløden, det er en fin ordning der fungerer ,-)

Der er god tone at underbygge teorier med kilder eller lignende materiale, på den måde kan alle danne sig en mening eller have en holdning til om kilderne er korrekte eller der er uoverenstemmelser.

Det er vel det samme i forskerkredse, riskoen for uredelighed er i den grad til stede i de kredse hvis ikke man kan underbygge teori med fakta eller fører bevis for det man nu postulerer.

Endnu engang velkommen til Geni

Med venlig hilsen
Per Skulason

I think that what Remi ment here was just, that their is a discussion allready on Ragnar Lodbrok. We can not even agree on weather Gorm is the descendent of Ragnar or not here. It is maybee a bit much to discuss if Ragnar is a historic person or not here in this forum, which is about Gorm and Who he is.
Not that I want to make myself clever here.

@Anette Guldager Boye - I sincerely hope that Remi is just pointing out that there is a debate about Ragnar other place on Geni.

Cause I believe my pedigree documents whom date from before 1600 untill today. And they all name Ragnar Lodbrok as my ancestor - as well as Gorm.

And please bear in mind that though some if not all ancient sources are based on oral tradition. And the people who the written sources are based on - where often telling stories that the elders in their environment told them.

For example my granddad who was born in 1892 talked of events that happened up till nearly 300 years before he was born, just as if he was alive in that era - his mother was born in 1857, was one of his sources and as the elders before her..

This is how our Saga's survived through the generations until they where written some 2 or 300 years after the event. And it doesn't mean that they aren't based on the truth just because they are written from oral tradition. All the diverse manuscripts that are available today also confirm that there is some truth in what is written in the Sagas.

And yes - we are discussing Gorm in this forum. And Anette - to establish the existence of Gorm - we would probably have to begin by taking samples from his listed living descendants to confirm that they share the same DNA and from there research the bones in Jelling. We aren't even sure of that the bones in Jelling are in fact of Gorm - not even though the remains at Jelling and all Gorms listed descendant's share the same DNA.

Yes DNA testing I think is a great Ideer. I know that the Archeologist in Jelling are working with new ways. Scans and so on. They are hoping that they can get to the DNA testing I thing.
That would be fantastic.
I to believe that our sagas are bases on some thruth and real people. How much I do not want to say. I do not know enough about the sagas and the stories from Ragnas time to say anything about that.
I to am surposed to be descendant of Gorm and Ragnar.
I would like to know what the Islandic sagas say specific about Gorms Parent??

Private User if you want to discuss Ragnar, please do it in the other discussion, http://www.geni.com/discussions/129645, thank you.

@Anette Guldager Boye I agree with you and I to find it fascinating if scientists find out a way to obtain DNA from the remains in Jelling and from there do some research on those who are listed as Gorms descendant's

Here is a link to a source on an old long lost manuscript on the Saga's of the Danish kings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skj%C3%B6ldunga_saga

Great thankyou Anna.

@Anette Guldager Boye enjoy :)

http://www.geni.com/discussions/122167

http://www.geni.com/discussions/124947

Okay know I have done some reading. Not that I am done, so feel free to correct me if I missed something.
Ælfgifur I have no ideer what to do with. It does seem that she is surposed to go as a Wife of a sealand king called Frode, but the time and dates dont seem to fit.
Hardeknut their is it seems 2 options. Son of a King Sweyn from Nortmannia Normandie or Norway or A Erik that is a descendant of Ragnar Lokbrook.
How to deal with this issue I am not sure, since we are deep into the sagas here
I will be happy with some input here.

I think you have to assume that Regnar Lodbrog is one person, some of his sons is acounted for, Sigurd-orm is one, and I think I read somwhere that the Franks have accounted for him, but have to be sure.

I have to read a lot here, do not know how the Icelandish anals account for Regnar or if there is a reason to belive that he is a skizofren with multiple personalities I do not think so, but that is my oppinion and that is not a scientific enough aproach to substantiate that he is not a multiple personality.

Regards
Per

Well the question is also who to believe. Adam of Bremen or the Islandic sagas. As far as I can understand they say Hardeknut is son of Eric.
I think there is a franks mention of Hardeknut, so he might have been in Normandie or was around their on some raid.. But who is this Sweyn then??
And what about Erich??

I think we can all agree that Gorm is son of Hardeknut or just Knut. Mother unknown. or am I wrong??

I think of this not as a question of who we believe (of course we have doubts about all sources from this period), but which version to put on Geni as the "ancestry links", and which version to put as a comment in the "about me" with hypertext links to the relevant profiles.

Let's continue to reference sources, and see precisely what the alternatives are.

I'm going to add this to the "confusion" :D :
".........Sigurd Snake-in-Eye married Blaeja, the daughter of King Ella.

Their son was Knut, who was called Horda-Knut, who succeeded his father in Zealand, Scania and Halland, but Oslo Fjord broke away from his rule. Gorm was his son....."

http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/ThattrRagnarsSonar....

So why can't Gorm have been born in Zealand, Scania or Halland... even Oslo????

Anna, the problem with that theory is the dates: There aren't enough generations between Sigurd and Gorm.

From an upthread posting:

- Ragnar Lodbrok: Born approx 765
- Sigurd Orm-i-Øjet: Born approx 786
- Hardeknut: Currently marked as born 814 (but that seems unreasonable given that he arrived as ursuper in Denmark around 880)
- Gorm the Old: Born approx 890

That source certainly warrants mentioning in Hardaknut's profile. But I find that it stretches my credulity.

BTW, do any linguistically inclined people among us want to comment on the forms "Hordaknut" and "Hardeknut"?

My ear (which is, unfortunately, turned mostly to contemporary Norwegian) hears one as "Knut from Hordaland", and the other as "Knut the hard one".

Which forms do our sources use?

@Harald Tveit Alvestrand!

Her er en artikkel om Knut på Norsk: http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardeknut

Og her er anden artikkel på vårt gamle morsmål, Islandsk :
http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6r%C3%B0a-Kn%C3%BAtur

Private User vær forsiktig med Hardeknutene - som jeg skrev i curator note på Hardaknut sin profil så er det to av dem. Denne Wikipedia-artikkelen er om den fra 1000-tallet, mens Gorms far er fra 800-tallet.

Den Hardeknut vi snakker om her er http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardeknut_den_f%C3%B8rste

Jeg finner ingen islandsk versjon av den artikkelen, dessverre.

@Harald Tveit Alvestrand - tusind tak fordi jeg har forvirret disse mennesker sammen.

To me this is fairly easy. If and/or when the sources disagree, then the ancestral lines should stop there as fact-based genealogy and the theories shoud be mentioned in the About me section.

I don't agree with Per Skulason that Ragnar is only one person, but, please, let us keep him out of the discussion about Gorm, and discuss Ragnar here instead: http://www.geni.com/discussions/129645

As primary sources there are none, we have only secondary ones, and because of that we have several teories also. With todays knowledge, it is impossible to to say what is true and what is fantasy, so, please, when in this situation, let us keep our comments to the about me section and not as event based facts.

Remi Trygve Pedersen when sources disagree, I don't agree that it's always right to stop there. To use another example, it makes perfect sense to me to list as king Sverre's profile's father either Sigurd Munn or Unas Kammaker - but not to leave the spot empty or filled by a "We are not sure" marker profile. (not to reopen the Sverre discussion here).

I've used both approaches in the past. I think it's a judgment call - and one on which reasonable people can disagree. But I don't think it's always one or always the other.

Well I must admit Cofused is the word here. There is general disagreement on who, what and where.

Ælfgifu I Think needs to be cut of here as Gorms mother. It does not fit. I think I am pretty clear on that, unless the rest of you can tell something otherwise.
What do you all say to this!!
Hardeknut well that is insane. Also the stories are all very different.

I do not believe I have ever seen mentioned Harald Klak as king of west Denmark or Gorm of Sealand. Not once in my years as a history study.
I think we might have more than one Gorm. Saxo mention that too.

and like that I could go on. But what to do, so to make all satisfied with matter.
CAn we all agree that a Hardeknut is Gorms father?? no one says anything, else as far as I can see.
How to seperate saga (I am here not saying the sagas is wrong. They just dissagree) and the known facts.
How can we state some parents of Gorm or Hardeknut without saying it is fact. Because the link goes missing to the parent if it only is put it in about me.
Any ideers ???
I know it is just technical question here. No answer to who what and where.

On top of that comes the question on which sorce to put on geni! ??

Gunhild Jelling, Dronning af Norge ?

I've now disconnected Ælfigu from Hardeknut. That also left Gorm's two siblings fatherless; I don't think we have documentation for those either (Fróði VI Hardeknútsøn, King of Sjaelland and Gudrid Hardeknudsdatter)

I also started a new discussion on the Ælfigu profile - someone might have information on her from the English side.

There was also a wife "Sida" of Hardeknut that I also let float into the great unknown.

I put in a placeholder profile for Gorm's mother - experience shows that it's good to lock such "contentious" profiles, or they get overwritten, but I'd like one of the Danes to translate it into Danish first.

Making Geni a little better, one profile at a time...

Harald I think you are right with the two so called siblings of Gorm. That does not fit.
If you tell me what it is you want in danish i'll do it.

Harald I think you are right with the two so called siblings of Gorm. That does not fit.
If you tell me what it is you want in danish i'll do it.

Just put into the "about me" of the profile, in Danish:

The mother of Gorm is not named in the sources. This profile serves as a placeholder, and is locked to prevent inappropriate merges.

Also adjust the name fields to something you think will display appropriately in Danish.

Then I'll lock the profile and put the same note (in English) in the curator note. That should do it.

I have now written in the profile " Gorms mother " in danish.