Odd Jewish Names

Lifsha is probably a derivative of Libe acc. to Beider.

Motle is a diminuative for Mordechai (Mordkhe). A male name. I didn't find anything for that for female.

Vite is specific to Eastern Europe acc. to Beider and may come from Witoslawa (Polish) or perhaps the Czech equivalent.

Where did you get these spellings? Are they transliterations of hebrew? Could they be yiddish? Did you see these written somewhere - the where is as important as the name. Are these "familiar" names that loved ones used?

By the way, I realized that Lifshe was the name of my great great aunt, which is why I recognized it. Her Anglicized name was Elizabeth.

Some of those names may be in Litvish. they sound like some of the names on my maternal Madoff (Magadovsky) side. I have some ancestral postcards from my grand-uncle Louis Roth (Radovsky):

Louis Ralph Roth

Uncle Louie sent to the US from our shtetl in Lithuania that nobody has been able to translate, that are probably in Litvish according to friends of my brother in Israel who are fluent Cyrillic language and Yiddish speakers.

Does anybody know anybody fluent in Litvish? I'd be willing to let them have a look.

By Litvish, I assume you mean the N.E. dialect of Yiddish spoken in Lithuanian. There is no language Litvish as far as I know and I am a PhD linguist with quite a bit of knowledge of Jewish history and linguistics.

Litvish generally is used to referred to Litvaks (try Google) apparently. It's the first time I have heard it myself.

As I said, Lifshe is a common woman's name. I have at least two on my tree. One from Biyalstok.

You can check the names in
Dictionary of Ashkenazic Given Names
Their Origins, Structure, Pronunciation, and Migrations
by Alexander Beider
http://www.avotaynu.com/books/dagn.htm

Re: spellings.

I am trying to anglicize the various spellings I've seen.

Vitty - comes from the two times I've seen it--once in Germanicized spelling and once elsewhere for a different person in Hebrew. The German was "Witty" and the Hebrew was vav-vav-yud-taf-yud

Lifsha - again English version of German and Hebrew spellings - "Lifsche" and lamed-yud-fe-shin-alef

Motla was only my approximation of what I heard my neighbor say. It was could be "Matla". You're right that it could be a female version of the name "Motl"--like sometimes the name Davida. But I'd like another option if someone can think of something.

Litvish refers to the pronounciation of Yiddish, which would impact the transliteration, but not the original Hebrew spelling. Most people are familiar with the Litvish, which seems to the be standard in transliteration, so I try to transliterate the opposing "Chassidish" spellings to Litvish when I see them. Likewhen I see people have transliterated a name as "Burech", I will generally add to the "also known as" field the Litvish spelling "Baruch" and "Boruch" so that the profile will be more likely to show up in searches. More people are likely to spell the name the latter two Litvish ways than the first Chassidish way.

Private User - I did look all three up in Beider's dictionary. That was the basis of my answer above.

Yiddish had two main dialects and Litvish is the NE Yiddish dialect I believe. From what I read, Litvish is a term used by Chassidic Jews to differentiate themselves from the Litvaks / Mitnagdim. Which roughly corresponds to the contrast that is made between the Litvak geography / approach to Judaism versus the Ukrainian / Galician geography and approach.

No, I live very much in a litvish Orthodox community, and this is a term we ourselves use. Maybe less so than the term 'yeshivish," which essentially means the same thing because the American and Israeli Yeshiva system originated in the Litvish (actually meaning Lithuanian) part of Europe.

There is a book coming out called Litvish by the researcher Dovid Katz.
http://www.dovidkatz.net/i_4yatl.htm Here he's actually focusing on not just pronunciation, but also lexical differences (word choices). Like check out the variant words for "dreidel": http://www.dovidkatz.net/WebAtlas/26_Dreydl.htm

Thanks for pointing out that name dictionary.

Thanks so much for helping me understand this Nick. My husband's family is very observant, but I had never heard this term. I had heard "yeshivah". Since I'm Conservative, I am not 100% in the observant community, just on the fringes due to my nieces and nephews and great nieces and nephews.

I did see Dov Katz' book or an excerpt online when I searched on "Litvish". His title was Litvish and his subtitle was N.E. Yiddish.

I will be really interesting in the book and in the lexical differences. I studied the history of Yiddish (phonology and morphology but we touched on other aspects) many years ago as part of my PhD in linguistics. Since I then knew Hebrew very well and had also studied four years of German, it was a great class. And of course my grandparents and my husband's parents spoke Yiddish at home. My husband's knowledge of Yiddish vocabulary was pretty extensive although his parents used it as a secret language that the children couldn't understand. My nephew learned Yiddish when he entered the Yeshivah of course and I believe uses it extensively now in his community.

Words that I have noticed and don't know the dialect implications are kamish broit for mandelbrot and tsigefrischte matzah for the egg and matzoh breakfast scrambled eggs we eat at Pesach. My mother-in-law used those words that a lot of people do not use.

Oh yes, interestingly, we discovered that my husband's family had been brought in 1840 from Courland to Southern Ukraine and when my brother-in-law heard that he said he could never figure out why his father spoke Yiddish like a Litvak and this explained it.

Beider's books are amazing reference books. I have both his book on given names and the more important book on surnames which is a must have if you do genealogy of families in the Russian Empire. It was well worth the investment. I use both books all the time.

Great point to have both the Hebrew / Yiddish orthography but the Litvish pronunciation and have both in the profile for search ability. I try to also give the transliteration as in the records from the region (Chaje for Chaia, Szaje for Isiah).

Hatte,
I was looking at this discussion on Jewish names, and checked out the link Nina Golod offered, which reminded me of the path between you and me. It's lengthy, but one of the shorter ones I've found so far. I know linguists are very helpful for tracing migrations.

I found a Jewish genealogy website on Geni a few weeks back. On there they had a list of what must have been tens of thousands of German-Jewish surnames. Almost all the surnames on my father's side were on that list, and almost all his ancestors came from Baden, Wuerttemberg and Bavaria.

I don't believe in coincidences. Can you give me some information on how or why these two pieces of phenomena came about? I feel so sure there must be some sort of connection. I know there was very little intermarrying with gentiles before 1800, if any at all. These people migrated to S. Russia in the early 1800s (the Hertel family in 1804). All the German-Jewish surnames go back at least to the 1600s, some to the early 1500s, depending on how far back I have their lines.

Could they be Sephardic Jews who Germanized their names? I once thought they had come through Switzerland, but on closer examination, I realized they didn't. The spread of these names actually goes from west to east, not east to west.

By the way, "Hertel" is among those surnames, and the only meaning of that surname I've found, which makes any sense, I'm sure I found through a Jewish source.

There is a tremendous amount of intermarrying in these families, especially after they migrated to S. Russia (Ukraine). Even after they migrated to the USA, they continued to intermarry, and still do today, although, for the most part, they have no clue they are intermarrying within the Germans from Russia culture, which is a very distinctive culture in the United States.

It would be nice if you could shed some light on this puzzle. At least, to me it's a puzzle.

Shalom and
Most Sincerely,
Sylvia M. Hertel
Lead, S.D.

Hatte,
I almost forgot the Elsass-Lorraine district. Actually more of my father's German-Jewish ancestral surnames come from there than come from Bavaria, but most come from Baden-Wuerttemberg, especially Baden.

Shalom,
Sylvia M. Hertel

Hi Sylvia,

Lots of Jewish families in Alsace-Lorraine areas. My brother-in-law's family is from there.

Your story of the German families moving to Ukraine is interesting. Where were they exactly in Ukraine? I know a little about some German families who went to Ukraine.

I don't remember if you did DNA, but that would be the first thing I would look at, if you can afford the tests. Sometimes the tests even can reveal Sephardic connections. There were Sephardic families who assimilated into Ashkenazi communities and changed their names. I know more about the ones who went to Lithuania.

Beider is a good place to look up the surnames but remember that there are lots of German surnames that are shared by both Jews and Germans. It's not the Beider book that Nina referenced above, but another Beider book about surnames. Actually he has books for different regions. I have the one for the Russian Empire. I will look up Hertel and also see what I can find out about Baden.

But it would be useful to understand where they lived in Ukraine and why they moved there and WHO they moved there with.

Best,
Hatte

http://www.grhs.org/villages/hoffnungstal/neu-gluckstal_odessa.html

Okay, your family went to Southern Ukraine I believe (from a post you made elsewhere), as did my husband's family. The Russian Tsar gave incentives to attract German farmers to the plains of Southern Ukraine and also to bring 5000 Jews from Courland (Latvia which was settled by Prussians) to establish agricultural colonies. The Germans and Jews lived together in some of them. My husband's family was in Kherson area.

Here a link which says that the Germans in that town were Evangelical.

http://www.grhs.org/villages/hoffnungstal/neu-gluckstal_odessa.html

Have a look at this set of 4 postcards that I'm preserving in Ultra-Pro trading card sheet protectors to prevent further deterioration.

The Soviet emigre friends of my brother in Israel were not able to translate them. It would be great if anyone here can:

http://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000015395406674?photo_id=6000000...

Hatte,
This migration of Germans to S. Russia (Ukraine) northwest and north of the Black Sea is where all of my father's ancestors lived, and they migrated there on the invitation of the Tzar to farm the Steppes. My 2nd great grandfather, Jacob Hertel was born in Neudorf, Glueckstal, Odessa Province in 1841. He married Maria Rosina Kraentzler (she went by Rosina), b. in 1844 in Glueckstal, Glueckstal, Odessa Province, in 1864. They moved to Neu Glueckstal, Glueckstal after they were married and had all their children there. They migrated to the Dakota Territory, USA in 1885, but they both died within two years of their arrival. Jacob's parents were Franz Friedrich Hertle, b. 1804 in Zaisenhausen, Karlsruhe, Baden, just before they left for Russia, and Katharine Walz, b. 1809 in Klein Neudorf, but her grandfather, Daniel Walz was b. 1788 in Boblingen, Boblingen, Baden-Wuerttemberg and grandmother, Maria Elisabethe Roemer was b. 1778 in Croettweiler, Bas-Rhin., Elsass.

Rosina Kraenzler's grandfather, Johann Friedrich, b. 1786 in Lustnau, Tubingen, Wuerttemberg, married Anna Katharina Rehberger, b. 1792 in Waiblingen, Ostalkreis, Wuerttemberg. I'm not positive of her birthplace. Kraentzler isn't on this list, but Rehberger is.

Rosina's other grandparents, Nikolaus Klein, b. 1791 in Unterurbach, Waiblingen, Wuerttemberg, and Elisabetha Heimerdinger, b. 1791 in Backnang, Rems-Murr-Kreis, Ba-Wu. married 1810 in Glueckstal, Glueckstal, Odessa.

Other 2nd great granparents were Immanuel Schock (Schoch), b. 1842 in Bergdorf, Glueckstal, Odessa, married Elisabeth Dorothea Wolf, b. 1839 also in Bergdorf, in 1862 in Bergdorf. My great grandmother, Eva Schock, was born in Marienberg, Glueckstal, Odessa. They came to USA in 1889. Immanuel's father, Johannes was born 1799 in Obstadt, Heilbronn, Ba-Wu., and Anna Maria Barbara Deyle was born 1803 in Fellbach/Waiblingen, Rems-Murr-Kreis, Ba-Wu., but they were married 1822 in Bergdorf, Glueckstal, Odessa. Some of these place names don't make any sense to me, but I haven't had a chance to check them out. Deyle isn't on this list.

Elisabetha Dorothea Wolf's father, Johann Georg, b. 1806 in Rountzenheim, Bas-Rhin., Alsace, France, but was married to Elisabetha Amann, b. 1808 in Kassel, Glueckstal, Odessa, 1828 in Kassel, Glueckstal, Odessa. Her father, Johann Philipp was b. 1772 in Meisenheim, Bad Kreuznach, Rheinland-Pfalz. I only have his wife's first name and birthdate. Amann isn't on this l;ist, but Hamann is. I'm not sure if they are a derivative of the same name though.

Other 2nd great grandparents were Christian Zimmerman, b. 1852 in Johannesthal, Beresan, Odessa Province, and Margaretha Anna Diede, b. 1854 in Johannesthal also, and married there in 1874. They came to USA in 1902. Christian's grandfather, Johann Georg, b. 1799 in Pleizhausen, Tubingen, Wuerttemberg. Christian's other grandfather, Christian Friedrich Heinle, b. 1802 in Marbach, Ludwigsburg, Ba-Wu. married Anna Maria Zimmermann, b. 1796 also in Pleizhausen, most likely in Johannesthal.

The Diede surname isn't on this list, and all I know about where they came from is Baden-Wuerttemberg.

Last 2nd great grandparents on my father's side are Johannes Fuerst, b. 1855 in Teplitz, Akkerman, Bessarabia, Odessa, and Christina Bensinger, b. 1857? in Teplitz also. They were married in 1876 and came immediately afterward to USA. Johannes' grandparents, Balthasar, b. 1784 in Karlburg, Gmuenden, Bavaria, and Elisabetha B. Rechkaemmer (Rechtkaemmer), b. 1792 in Weinsberg, Heilbronn, Ba-Wu., were married 1819 in Teplitz, Akkerman, Bessarabia, Odessa. Rechkaemmer by either spelling isn't on this list.

Johannes Fuerst' other grandparents, Christian Konrad Zacher was b. 1802 in Grossingersheim, Ludwigsburg, Ba-Wu., and Johanna Maria Barbara Fischer was b. 1805 in Chronbach?, Wuerttemberg.

I can't possibly give you all the surnames in between these generations and going further back, but I think this should give you a good enough clue to what I'm talking about.

I wish I could give you a link to the site where I found this list, but I can't remember where I found it. All I can give you is the link at the bottom of the page of this list.

http://web.archive.org/web/20120414222442/http://www.avotaynu.com/b......

Accessed on 2/17/2014

I know what the definition of Fuerst is, but I sure would like to know it's origins also.

I've given you a boatload of information to look at. By the way, I am a member of the GRHS. I'm sure you noticed the Black Sea Germans didn't stay there very long. That's because of the early rumblings of the Bolshevik revolution. The Volga Germans were there since the early to mid 1700s, before they decided to leave. I don't know much of their history except they left before the Black Sea Germans did. They filled up most of Kansas and Nebraska. Then the Black Sea Germans came and filled up the Dakota Territory. Some even went into Canada. Of the Black Sea Germans, many left the Dakotas for the west coast. I have many relatives in Washington, around Portland, Oregon and in the Lodi/Sacramento area. It seems like I noticed you live in California. I wonder if there might be an even closer path between us. I've noticed that Geni doesn't always give the closest path between two people.

I've bored you enough.

Shalom,
Sylvia M. Hertel
Lead, S.D.

Hatte,
You say your husband's family lived in Kherson. I'm sorry, but I only know the German names for that area at that time. Where is Kherson?

Sylvia

Kherson is a Gubernia in Southern Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kherson_Governorate

Private User - we don't have permission to view your images.

Try posting them in Viewmate on a Jewish Gen SIG or joining one of the Jewish genealogy forums on Facebook where people ask questions and there are some really knowledge people there.

What language are your postcards in? Russian? Ukrainian? Yiddish?

http://www.evkol.nm.ru/colony_kherson_en.htm
This is the link to the site of jewish agricultural colonies in Ukraine. The site have mirror in Russian and in English.
The info can be helpful in research of Jewish and German families, moved to live in Ukraine.

http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Colonies_of_Ukraine/

Thanks Nina! The above link is to the Jewish Gen site I have used to research the Blejer family and related families. Also, once you know that your ancestor was in a certain colony, it may be possible to also trace them back to Courland, which is what we have been doing, working with Sylvia Walowitz and others. The Jewish agricultural village of Novopoltavka was settled by 40 or so Jewish families, mostly probably from four towns in Latvia/Courland: Goldingen (Kuldiga), Bausk, Mitau (Jelgava), and Hasenpoth (Aizpute). See for instance http://www.jewishgen.org/courland/goldingen_births_deaths.htm.

Hatte,
Thanks for the link, but if you think my German is bad, and it is, my Russian and Ukrainian are non-existent. The area of the Kherson Governant looks like the same area the Germans call the Glueckstal District. What I find amazing is how both the Russians and the Ukrainians all but completely ignore the German existence in their countries, yet they were major contributors to the economy while they lived there. In one place, I read their guild was directly under the guild of the aristocracy, because they had become so wealthy.

Another place I read where some Germans, who had waited too long to get out of Russia, were instructed by the Jews on how to get as much of their gold out with them and then helped them get out through the Jewish underground.

Of course, there were Germans who waited even longer and either starved to death or were rescued by the German army in 1942-1943 by escorting them back to Germany, or if they couldn't get that far, at least to Poland, but the German soldiers considered them expatriates, and treated them just as badly as the Bolsheviks had.

When the Russian army came into Poland and Germany, they took many of those Germans and some other Germans captive and shipped them off to Siberia. I have records of German cousins who were among those two groups.

When the pogroms against the Jews started again in the 1850s or was it the 1880s, they were also implemented against the Germans. Dad told me stories which his grandmother had told him. The Bolsheviks and the Ukrainian neighbors hated both the Jews and the Germans, because of their ability to succeed.

Another thing, I wonder how many people are aware of the fact that Carl Marx and other leaders of the Bolshevik movement, and later revolution, were at least half Jewish. They were the ones who set off the pogroms again. What was that all about?

I know I'm now definitely off the topic of this discussion, but ethnic personalities is a large part of what makes up history, and Marx is definitely a Jewish name.

Most Sincerely
Shalom, Sylvia M. Hertel

There were German families, known in Ukrainian history, who contributed a lot to the establishnent of industry and agriculture. But they were considered as separate people or families, not ethnity. There vere much more Jews, lived in Ukraine. Generally moved from Courland and Belorussia in about 1848. These Jews were considered as ethnic group. The difference was x20 or more. I.e. 1 German family per 20-100 Jewish families in19 sentury.

Matia is a female name to Mathilda
Livish Is coming from Leivush=Leib.

Transliteration definitely makes our task "cloudier" than it should be. People having a one "Jewish" and one "civil" name makes it worse.

Most of the duplicates I had to unify were caused by it. My general rule is... same parents, same birthplace & date, it is the same person.

Though Soundex takes care of it, my pet example for its reason to be is one same surname that changes spelling depending on the country where it was transliterated from Cyrillic (which I can't read or write). It became:
Jakóbowicz in Poland
Jakobovič in Czechoslovakia
Jacoboviitz in Germany
Yacoubovitch in France
Iacobovici in Romania
Giacobbi in Italy
... and so on.

Then we have the transliteration of first names from Hebrew (can't write it either) that can lead one name to countless spellings, e.g. Itzhak, Yitzhak. Itschak, Isac, Isaac. Issac, and so on.

The cherry on the topping is the Polish habit of giving everyone a nickname. My parents were Rudolf and Lucja, known everywhere as Rudek and Ludka or Lutka. I can recall less than a handful of Polish relatives/friends of theirs who were NOT known by their nicks only, rather than their names. These are often easy to solve, but when Aleksander becomes either Olek or Salek, Adolf turns into Dolek, Herminia is known as Niusia, and Malgorzata is called Goska, things get messy.

The point here is that "dumb" computers deal VERY badly with such changes, and most third-party reports (e.g. at Yad Vashem) on people they knew include some "misliterations" or swapping among Jewish and civil records names, as well as nicknames in both. As these are taken elsewhere, we have further translations, so it takes some detective work to realize that Erwin came from Irving, which was originally Yitzhak, also known as Icek by some people who knew him.

I often have people on my tree with 6-8 first name spellings, and try my best to prune them down to one Polish and one transliterated Hebrew spelling, hoping that computer systems will have adequate parsing routines to cope with that.