John Rice, of Dedham

(Just to make a polite clarification, I was only interested in the Appleton's insofar as it was suggested that Robert Ryece was the real father of Robert Appleton, and may have taken both boys (Robert and John) "under his wing" after their father's death.)

Not sure if this thread is best but I'll post this link i found interesting in a general way re: migration from the west counties.

http://www.weymouth-dorset.co.uk/ships.html

From what I saw as familiar names, this migration embarkation point is particularly associated with

Colonial Governor Endicott
Settlements in Salem (Essex county MA); Charlestown & Dorchester (current day Suffolk MA)

The name I've (personally) tracked most is Sprague, as Lt Ralph's wife married Edward Converse, and "one day" I may figure out where my ancestress Lucinda Converse fits in that family.

Converse is particularly associated with Woburn (Middlesex county MA)

http://sharing.ancestry.com/3715860?h=cbf132

http://www.geni.com/path/John-Parrott+is+related+to+Samuel-Rice?fro...

John Perratt is the linkage to Judge Richard Perrott and this secondary linkage shows that it exists in my family affiliation which is here on Geni fyi.

Can anyone think of any reason Ann Hackley's name would be used instead of the real family name? Is there a possibility that Hackley was used in place of another name?

Michael.

Most unlikely, I would say. The pattern is several days of accepting the paper-trail and then back to a hidden parentage covered up by The Powers That Were.

I have been considering the Washer-Women (laundry-maids) who may be involved. Have any of us thought that Mister Toad (as in "the Wind of the Willows") may be a symbolic biography of Henry VIII?

And Mr Toad is still laughing at us:

"The clever men of Oxford
May know all that is to be knowed
But none of them know half so much
As intelligent Mister Toad".

Of course we Cambridge people are exempted from this.

Mark

L3 , it's not pure BS. Mike 's right often what some people have to say and offer . goes in one ear and out the other. Or just falls on deaf ears.

http://www.geni.com/path/John-Dudley+is+related+to+Rev-John-Allin-o...

This is an interesting convergence of Dudley to Allin of Norfolk & Dedham. Isle of Wight is a stop on the way from Norfolk to Ma. We have to note that the Hackley line named in the testimony are centered at Isle of Wight...and now we have Dorothy Allin....does anyone know who she married or if she married? I didn't see that on line over the past few days.

Dorothea Barker likely no further record. But it's a good question & worth pursuing.

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Ann-Hinckley?fro...

While most of the family seems to be from Devon & Norfolk....The Hinckley family would only be 1.2 days journey south by boat and a Stop there would be easy enough to accomplish. This family has long been affiliated with Godfrey's and they inturn are linked by blood to the Rices. The name similarity is clear.

Ann Hinckley again, not a bad idea to pursue. May I suggest you contact the manager (send message to manager function) and see if he has more info on this family?

Turns out Ann Hinckley is dead at age 35 and no marriage listed. So I am going to go back to Dorothy Allen. Please note that the King's best friend was Sir Francis Bryan is a blood relative.(Elizabeth Bryan aka "The younger wife" of Henry Tudor & allegedly bore children for him. She married into the Carew family of Wales, which are just down the road from the ap Rhys family at Tenby where Perrott ap Rice 1598 was born to Thomas and Margaret Mercer- ap Rice.

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir-Francis-Bryan-I-The-Vicar-of-Hell-Lord...

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir-Francis-Bryan-I-The-Vicar-of-Hell-Lord...

This is FYI only and the coincidence of John Rice of Dedham being raised among puritans of relationship to Vicar of Hell, Francis Bryan is at least interesting. DCR

"the vicar of Hell" is one of the best nicknames in history.

I find Dorothie Allen married Wm. Davye April 10,1616 in Norfolk England.

Came across this looking for Davye: Houghton family not the correct spelling but does put a spin on the Davye family, thought you might be interested Ms. Erica.

http://people.albion.edu/rhoughto/Family/Houghton/The_Houghton_Gene...

In 1978 I did not understand that the Bacon family was related in any way to the Rice's of Nebraska. Aparantly my father was talking about a very long time ago. See this :

Margaret Price

Anthony Bacon and Sir Frances were at Grey's Inn together when their very important father passed away. Sir Frances had not yet received any inheritence from the Lord Keeper of the Great Seal of England, and Anthony was involved with political insider information reporting to QE I Waslshingham. http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/freebooks/bacon/bacon3.html

My father also indicated that the Mercer family of Tenby where Margaret is burried was in some manner connected to Sir Francis Bacon of Grey's Inn. I have not pursued that line of inquiry but now that we have a blood affiliation to Margaret ap rice ca1618 my candidate for mother of John Rice 1630, Perhaps it's time to attend to this.

Thanks for the link Dale. That's actually one of the first books I read on genealogy.

If I recall correctly, the legend of Ratcliffe Houghton blowing up the family castle of Hoghton as a "turncoat" participant in the English Civil War (parliamentarian side), sneaking onto a Virginia trading vessel out of Bristol, changing his name to Ralph, walking from Virginia to Massachusetts to join his cousin John in swindling Indians out of their forest land in Lancaster (which was thoroughly eviscerated in King Philip's War, perhaps in revenge for that initial Houghton swindling) ... has been thoroughly debunked. There was never such a person as Ratcliffe Houghton.

And I am not a descendant. Katherine "the calla lilies are in bloom again" Hepburn however was.

Debunking is one of the important processes of genealogy. It opens new doors. Unfortunately, sometimes one does not find anyone on the other side.

Mark

My illiterate Kentucky Howton's just got very lucky when they responded to the ad seeking "heirs to Hoghton castle in America.". They weren't born yesterday so they hired an English genealogist, who was able to prevent them from being bilked in the 1920's version of the Nigerian email scam.

So ... There "is" a more sinister side, and why it's important to keep shining the light of "likely / less likely" on all these queries.

Sir Nicholas Bacon to Margaret ap Rice 1618 did not come across above. Here it is. Assuming a lot I know, but that Geni has vetted all this I hope is a true estimation of the linkage my father was trying to convey.

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir-Nicholas-Bacon-MP-1st-Baronet-of-Redgr...

http://www.geni.com/path/John-Price+is+related+to+Dorothy-Allen?fro...

Ann Allin born : 18 March 1621 North Elham, Norfolk Eng. to Thomas Allin (Hackley?)

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%...

http://www.geni.com/path/Joane-Danvers+is+related+to+Dorothy-Allen?...

My sister was named for the Dorothy of the family who was unknown to me in 1978. I think we have the answer here.

http://www.geni.com/path/Joane-Danvers+is+related+to+Margaret-ap-Ri...

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Margaret-ap-Rice...

Margaret ap Rice ca 1618 is the clear front runner per the testimony and relatedness here at Geni to be the mother of my 6th ggrandfather John Rice of Dedham. She is also related to the Ann Allin (Hackley) 1621 according to Geni which follows since the Burley's were part of the Elezabethan/Puritan Court. This is my view which is not yet based in paper trails but there is plenty of smoke here to follow NOW! DCR

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics

L3: I am not trying to prove I have the DNA questions fully answered. But I have uncovered enough DNA evidence that shows the Haplogroup values are trending in the right direction time and place for a Dudley Paternity for John Perratt II 1565. Since Perratt is the named person as the father of John Rice 1630, and I have 9 faces in the family that clearly show the DNA's effect, we are well within reason to assume the testimony was correct. I do know the difference of what I am asserting and PROVING it. I simply wanted to make sure it was not some other haplogroup that ruled out DUDLEY as the father. My assertion cannot be proved unless someone were to get DNA from the Royal Tudor's and we all know that's not going to happen. DCR

"we all know that's not going to happen. DCR"

We know that the British Royal Family have given their DNA to check the Romanovs who were kiled in 1918. I don't know whether they have to consent again Dale C. Rice.

Mark

The Dudley DNA is knowable in time once Francis Dudley's Y values are known, that should be able to be examined. Female Tudor DNA is Mitocondrial and this would surely have roots in The house of Castile. and other Spanish roots. Elizabeth I would have hers in the Boylyne's female lineage. I am not aware of that being known. to compare data sets. That's all I am pointing at.

The story is now understood to be that the person my father was talking about who was like a prince but not a prince, is the person Sir Robert Dudley, named in the conversation who's son was disowned for unknown reasons and raised in the household of Sir John Perrott 1528 & Sybil Johns and Sir James Perrott. of Havorford West. Elizabeth York would have the Mt. DNA of her mother, out of France? We do have the house of Rolland deVellville to look to and it was I-1 as I recall. So the recent find of an Edwardes DNA son to come forward as an I-1 privately is confusing. I gave that up with a sister's assertion that her Edwardes Brother tested R1b.

Arthur Dudley is an interesting story. Perhaps someone knows of him?

Dale, the Dudley DNA is known. We went through that a few months ago. I gave you references. It doesn't match you. Another lead now off the table.

It might be useful to compile and post (and keep updated) a list of leads that are off the table.
Why?
Because while it is good to know what could be possible, it is even better to know what is not possible.
;)

Dudley site at Family tree is missing Francis Dudley, and the other Dudley's were ungrouped... So , Which ones lead back to Sir Robert? I could not tell which were descendents of Sir Robert. Clearly I did not read the data sets the way you did. They are at least I-1 and the fast changing values are not removed from the DNA values listed which means 5 1 step variables across 500 years. The arrow is pointed at Dudley and some one of the Grey Sisters is possible descended from Margaret.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MdwpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA115&lpg=...

Useful information on the Dudley's here.

L3: I agree with you on the lists of persons ruled out by the investigation. It's not a matter of willful disregard on my part, it's a matter of not yet being convinced. Once I reach the tipping point it is all or nothing for me as you saw when I gave on Henry Tudor's link to the male Rice family via alleged son Sir John Perrott 1528. The DNA evidence I am convinced shows an ancient Current of the Rice DNA signature is present in the Dudley, Saunders, Jenkins, White, and even the Scandanavian Tudors & de Vellville lines before R1b1 showed up. It's like a drum beat in music....it's a profoundly elemental part of the search. I do understand that There is no cause=effect to the present without a known family history such as my own to John Rice 1630. My intent here was to demonstrait that the story had legs and should be looked at seriously. That we disagree over the meaning of some findings does not mean I disrespect the persons involved here on GENI.

Let us be clear about something (for once, right L3?) Being obsinent about the validity of the story does not mean I think it was/is 100% accurate, it is my way of testing every possible explaination for why and how the information was transmitted. That's why some non-blood relationships are venues for the transmission of the Phillips/Dudley-Rice DNA.

I conceed that elements of the story are likely not based in verifiable facts as required by the systems you all adhere to. I am not stupid, I am determined to have a full understanding but my training will not allow someone to dictate the terms of my understanding. In short I question everyone and everything because no one, including myself, can have all the facts in complete order & understanding. Therefore I stand with John Locke...question all authority and test for validity. Some persons such as myself are not as far along in grasping every element, and properly applying it to the questions at hand. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart for extraordinary patience shown, and even some of the peaque. DCR 1948

Dale, let's think about this for a few minutes. You say that you "will not allow someone to dictate the terms of my understanding."

Fair enough. I sometimes disagree with experts myself. I know how hard it can be. You have to get the experts to really hear what you're saying, not just give rehearsed answers that don't have anything to do with your point.

But, just as hard sometimes is to remember to also listen. If someone tells you why something is not possible, or lacks evidence, you have to be willing to hear that and be able to formulate a clear answer, one that actually responds to the problem and doesn't just argue.

The problem you have at the moment is that you are using DNA data incorrectly. You are taking partial matches and trying to explain why they could be matches even though they don't meet any kind of scientific standard.

Yes, it could be possible that you're far ahead of science and DNA in your thinking, and that every geneticist alive today is a fool not to listen to you, but I hope you'll also consider the possibility that you've wandered off into conspiracy theories and a new junk science that is your own creation ;)

So. Yes. No one can dictate your understanding. But when your understanding is founded on an idiosyncratic interpretation of DNA test results, you shouldn't be surprised that you're not getting anyone to take your theories seriously.