John Rice, of Dedham

Justin & Ms. Erica: I wanted to put up the family names of Grainger & Foulsom as part of the 1978 testimony/conversation that my father gave because they both are named here on GENI as related to the Hackley's of Isle of Wight. If we are going to find Ann, she is most likely in that sequence of names. DCR

Dale - I'm sorry to say I don't find the "sequence of names" method helpful to me.

I don't rule out an Isle of Wight origin for your Ann Hackley, but so far I am finding stronger affinities to Lincolnshire and Sussex.

Would it be possible for you to verify my thinking that Ann Hackley is the only known Massachusetts arriver before 1650?

Sorry Sussex was my typo, I meant Suffolk.

what I need is a list of the origins of the Connecticut Hackley / Ackley arrivers. They are scattered on this discussion.

http://www.worldcat.org/title/dewitt-clinton-ackley-clarrissa-woodw...

Nicholas Ackley born about 1620, and this name is affiliated with WINTON family too. fyi

http://www.geni.com/path/James-Paynne+is+related+to+Ian-Winton?from...

Anne Hackley-Payne is in the running for Ann Hackley if widowed around 1645...have not found her husband yet to confirm. interesting coincidence to Ian's family though.

Dale - you will see, if you scroll up on this discussion or back a couple of pages, the link to the Nicholas Ackley tree on Geni. You might want to repost it for your own convenience & study the locations in England associated with his family.

If I recall correctly he is "theoretically" a brother of Peter Hackley.

It is these two families you want to examine.

I only know of one other arriving Hackley - the wife of Leek. Again, scroll up to find the link, and study the locations.

Dale how is someone born 1592 possibly the same person as someone having children starting in 1650? At 60 years old?

So - repeating

There are, as far as I can tell, only 3 other known Ackley or Hackley arrivers to New England

Nicholas Ackley of Haddam origin: Essex, England

"said to have been his brother" but i don't believe it
Peter Hackley, of New London
Origin: Hopton Castle, Shropshire. NOTE: a generation LATER than Ann Hackley born abt 1628

Who has ties to Roxbury, Massachusetts through his 2nd wife's family; Roxbury being the "mother" of Dedham MA

And Joanna Leek
Origin unknown but her husband was of "Dover / Kent"

And note: was not of the same generation or social class as Ann

http://www.geni.com/path/Joanna-Leek+is+related+to+Samuel-Rice?from...

Mary Frost Cook is now linked into this story, many Frosts and later Cooksons/Cookstons may link up to this family later? Since you asked about having children in 1650's....I was not suggesting that this was the same person as Ann just that the family may link back to her. So you already know that. Thankyou.

Elizabeth Stephens and Peter Hackley are cousins. Gallop family mentioned in the 1978 testimony, we must be getting close.http://www.geni.com/path/Elizabeth-Stephens+is+related+to+Peter-Hac...

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Peter-Hackley?fr...

Sorry: close. not part of the address above post. here is the relationship path Stephens to Hackley.

http://www.geni.com/path/Elizabeth-Stephens+is+related+to+Peter-Hac...

Maybe this is the Rice connection to Everard:

Indictment: Robert Skynner, yeoman, Nicholas Skynner, yeoman, JOHN Pye alias Burger, yeoman, Thomas Slyed, yeoman, Anabel Byrde, spinster, Agnes Everard, spinster, Margaret Everard, spinster, Mary Banbryke, spinster, Catharine Wright spinster, Agnes Gurnard, spinster, Ellen Gresham, spinster, Joan Kefford, spinster, Agnes Hayeward, Agnes Hayward the younger, spinster, Joan Symond, spinster, Agnes Suer, spinster, Elizabeth Yone, spinster, Joan Skynner, Margaret Skinner, spinster and Joan Mathey all of [Saffron] Walden, for riotously entring the .... of Robert RYSSE (Reise) called Howelfylde at Walden and assaulting him. (Session Rolls, Midsummer 1563, Essex Record Office)

Wow, that sounds like justice may have been carried out by a group of spinsters and their supporters for??? Breach of promise? That would be worth investigating.

Well, at least it would correct the patrirchal nature of English genealogy (pretty inevitable since the men usually did anything which was remembered, but all the same it grates - the old language of genealogy being "XX had issue by YY" as if she was a cow.

Breach of promise seems too little for 16 women and four men riotously entering his house to attack him.

Mark

Some other breach of Trust no doubt. Spinsters & their resources may have been an easy target I suppose. Wonder who he was? Can't look as Im onto the Hackley's/ Ackley's...just fyi yesterday was my eldest sisters 80th brithday and she looks 60 and acts 40. It's rare to find that in most places. I sent her copies of the various GENI links to the family we've talked about and vetted. DCR

That would be my guess ;)

This looks like a very plausible origin for John Rice, doesn't it?

For the John Rice "legends" you mean?

Robert Royce, of New London is another New London clue.

Peter Hackley of New London's 2nd wife's grandfather, Thomas Marshall, the ferry keeper of Roxbury, was involved in the antinomian (sp) controversy. Had to leave town for a while.

Almost certainly a red herring, but remember also John Rouse, of Marshfield. Unknown origin. Contemporary of John Rice, of Dedham.

I'm still not quite getting it I'm afraid ...

Robert Royce & Mary Appleton are the line from which the daughters marry into John Rice 1630 of Dedham. The DNA signature of Robert is 6 or 7 one steps out from Edmund Rice 1594, which is 4 single steps from John Rice of Dedham. The Book is a fascinating read....It seems to prefer the possibility that Robert is NOT linked to Rhys ap Thomas of Bosworth...and seems to bring the family back to East Anglia in Burey.

Very nice reference. I looked very carefully at Robert Royce two years ago, but the DNA signature is too far out for recent connection. DCR

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+John-Rouse-of-Ma...

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+Mary-Royce?from=...

Appleton & Robert Royce is the Same family you are trying to link. That is not the same DNA siganature. That is all I am indicating.

L3,

With respect, very difficult to tell how a Ryse, alias Rece, alias Rice might have been generally pronounced in a life which included a date in 1482. It might even have been generally pronounced differently at different times of his life.

A problem with names in the fifteenth century is the Great Vowel Shift (which in large part explains why English pronunciation varies so largely in written forms). In Chaucer's time "I" (as in "I am a pedantic old git") would have been universally pronounced "e". 100 years later, in Eastern England it would have been pronounced, as you say, as in "Vice", but it would clearly seem that in Western England and in Wales the shift took place later.

Anyway, the problem is not quite as obvious as one family from which I currently quail, where the head of the family seems to be called Keilway, which then turns into Kelloway (fair enough), they bought or inherited Stowford in Devon, and then for two or three generations they were known as Kelloway, Stoford, Stowford, or Stafford, with different branches eventually settling on different spellings (Stafford and Stowford).

From memory, if you look up Appleton Baronets in "Burke's Extinct and Dormant Baronetages" (there's a link on Wikipedia) I think you get a connection to a "Roos" which might be "Rous" or "Rowse". The Appleton baronets seem to have been vaguely in the area where we are looking for John Rice of Dedham, but to have had some west-country connections, presumably through Cornish or Devon merchants. Incidentally there's a John Perratt whom you will find on Geni as the son-in-law of "Walter Yonge, of Basilden, then Devon" .

Mark

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale-C-Rice+is+related+to+John-Hackley?fro...

Looks like the Hackleys and the Perrott's were aquainted. As in Dr. Richard Parrott son of Prunella. Coincidence?

Dale please explain how unrelated to you Hackleys in Virginia are acquainted with Dr. Perrott. A Geni path link is meaningless.

Explain? It's not my job to explain anything. I do reading and research, you and others explain. My father named John Perratt as the father of John Rice 1630. Dr. Richard Perrott son of Prunella and John Perratt/Perrott is the son or grandson of said person. Who links to the Warren Family which links to Hackley. I asserted that the children of John Rice were looked for by others a very long time ago, and it seems more than coincidental that Hackley comes up with the Perrott name.
I just put up the data, I don't try to explain it. That's not my calling.

Dear Dale,

That is, if I may say so, an unbelievably rude and arrogant reply. Everyone else has to do the ordinary work of testing connections, so far as it can be done. You just "put up the data" based on your memory of what your father told you in 1978.

You would never have got as far as you have done on Geni without other people's patient work, all of which could have gone into hundreds or thousands of other people's family trees, some of whom might have shown some gratitude.

Mark

Geni says: Mark is (currently) my 16th cousin

http://www.geni.com/path/Erica-Howton+is+related+to+Woodman-Mark-Lo...

When I look at the links, I eyeball it & ask myself: is this sensible?

The link for me to England to the grander side that descends to Mark is the immigrant ancestor Walter Knight, of Salem

He arrived from Somerset to Salem, Massachusetts, with a useful trade.

So - is this plausible? (I had no family stories of accused witches).

I've checked & rechecked, it's not certain, particularly on the English side - but it's possible.

Does this mean Mark sought me out 400 years later?

Uh ... No?