John Rice, of Dedham

If Dale is interested, there is a site on Rootsweb dedicated to the Perrott family of Pembrokeshire and its offshoots. One of the links is a book published in 1882 called "Perrot notes: or some accounts of the various branches of the Perrot family". It's a bit romantic, of course (the author can't quite bring himself to deny, nor fully endorse, the Henry VIII story); but very well researched and has a lot of information.

One predictable result to be found on the Rootsweb site is that lots of people have tried to find a link with the John Perratt of Virginia, and no-one (yet) has succeeded. There is apparently a Barbados branch (?? from John Perratt the Quaker) which seems to have used the Perrot coat of arms (three golden pears) on at least one occasion. But whether they were entitled to, I'm not sure that anyone knows. (Two branches of the family lived in Northleigh, Oxfordshire, and seem to have hated each other. One of them persuaded a herald, at a period when the heralds were notoriously corrupt, that the other branch were only descended by an illegitimate son, so they could only have their coat of arms as three silver pears, not gold. All subsequent researchers seem to have concluded that the second branch were perfectly genuine legitimate descendants; and they got their golden pears back after the first branch died out (for reasons like "eating crabs", or "regret at shooting a favorite servant"), I posthumously award them a fourth golden pear for apparently being ancestors of Jane Austen.

Your candidate does not link to my ancestoral past , The testimonial candidate does. Therefore your candidate must not have the same links that I do or logically he would fit. That is not the case. Im not proving a negative, my ancestory points to the validity of the testimony and so does the DNA . Im making the case for this is the path, not that it's proved. So lets stay on topic.

The testimony links the Mystery John Perratt and all my ancestroy prevails. That seems to be the linkages to pursue. Does your candidate have a match to Phillips, Scarfone, per the testimony? No he does not. I know I have not PROVED the Paper trail, but I am certainly more close than you are. DCR 1948

Dale, with respect you're going a bit over the line here.

Your candidate's DNA matches are so far illusory, because you refuse to accept the limitations in the data and apply the proper methodology to your analysis.

And you have no idea whether the matches you are seeing mean anything because you have not yet established the ancestry of your matches. You just have guesses based on a superficial "same surname!" analysis.

And you have no idea whether "my candidate" has matches, because you haven't checked. Indeed, it would be impossible to check without other descendants of the same family. So far we don't know of any.

Throw out the DNA until you have a real basis for using it. Focus on a cluster analysis. Your candidate fails. Two other candidates pass.

You have substantial problems with your theory. No one says you have to face them, but until you do you're not going to get anywhere.

Dale,

Do you know what irritates me? You have prosecuted people. You must (therefore) know that two eye-witnesses of the same event have different (though perfectly genuine) memories of the sequence of events (just as other witnesses may be lying). Nothing is proved untile it is proved, or at least remotely probable.

My candidate is wrong. Perfectly obvious if his mother died in 1572 and his father in 1584. But (I think from memory) that his father, having had 19 children by his first wife - poor woman - he had a further three by his second wife.

So he might have had a posthumous son John (a second son with the same name was perectly possible) especially since he must gave been running short of names after nineteen children already. But it's anyone's guess.

And your "ancestry" does not prevai, What is provable or probable prevails.

Exactly so Mark: And when the deep analysis of my SNP at 64 markers, and Mt. DNA comes in also affirming the Z-58 status of Phillips and Scarfone both attested to by my father's testimony I will be in court affirming such a relationship. The method of discovery is under debate here, not the outcome which some wish for their own reasons to preclude or short circuit even though I asked for all to wait upon the understanding and evidence to emerge. I will prevail by the time I present my evidence backed up by the existing descendent lines. I have that confidence. DCR

I have heard a good deal about the Sinclair's and the Rosline Chapel. Not into Dan Brown's interpretation, but interesting none the less. Thankyou L3.

Closer to home is this relationship hinted at by DNA, but now found some 3 months later. De La Roche connection to me is direct and to the Wm. The Condquorer link as well. See Ralph de la Roche 18th ggm husband Elizabeth deClair. This is clearly a Wales and Roche Castle link to the ap Rice's. These are all part of the secondary linkages I am drawing the circles around them, and where they overlap, we will one day find my 7th ggf I hope. DCR.

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale+C+Rice+is+related+to+Sir+William+Gard...

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+William+Gardiner+is+related+to+Samuel+...

http://www.geni.com/path/Sir+William+Gardiner+is+related+to+Anne+Ph...

http://www.geni.com/path/John+Phillips+is+related+to+Phebe+Braman?f...

These are the realtionships based upon the Testimony of 1978 which link to my current family of record here at GENI....It is these linkages which point to the DNA evidence also previously mentioned which show a DNA footprint to John Rice Via the Perrott Family. These are the arrows which lead me toward the eventual conclusion that the 1/2 Brother and sister relationship are part of the DNA of Phillips Rice, White, and Braman linkage to Edmund Rice my 3rd GGF. just fyi DCR (Justin you indicated that I had not linked this together, this is how I am proceeding to link the names and DNA evidence). DCR

http://www.geni.com/path/Henry+de+Cheney+is+related+to+Thomas+Chene...

http://www.geni.com/path/Henry+de+Cheney+is+related+to+Samuel+Gordo...

This is the secondary proof that my father's tesitmony was correct at all levels. Finding the paper trail to John Perratt II 1565 is my task. Perhaps the North Walshingham Rices will fit into the overall picture...it's too soon to tell however. DCR 1948

https://archive.org/stream/cavalierspioneer00nuge/cavalierspioneer0...

See # 21 1635 John Perrott 450 acres granted for Wife Prunella and others

#95 1638 John Perrott named as property owner with land next to
George Whyte Clark

#140 1642 John Pratt( Perratt?) NOvember 10, 298 acres Henrico
Co. Va. for transport of 6 persons 1) John Butler, 2) Richard Hues
3)ThomasReymand 4)John Jolley, 5)Giles Wright
6)JohnWellingworth

Dale, I believe Rosline Chapel is where they think or once though the Holy grall could be hidden. I know it's connected with the story.

Yes, I have heard and read the Dan Brown interpretation of the Grail being a Bloodline. That is not connected to my search or thinking. If that is a suggestion that would be a great reach that I am not making. I am searching for the antecedent line of John Rice 1630, and some disagree over the CLEAR and accurate telling that the father was John Perratt II also father to Perrott ap Rice.

Mark: We all agree there are at least two lifetimes. What you did not hear me say aparantly was, that Perrott ap Rice 1598 looks like he's the one who became JOHN PERROTT the Quaker. His wife had underage children in the head count of 1660 per the Pembrokshire Journals and since she did not remarry I have to assume that JP t Q....saw to that in his days crossing and recrossing the Atlantic. How else did he get from Virginia in 1654 when he was a hearty and hale to Wales, and Rome? I don't have the answers to that yet, but to be open minded is a virtue in the investigative world I was a part of. The Ship available to him, which was no longer available after being incarcerated in Rome, means that his writings and phampleteering had to get him back to the AMERICA's and his children by Elizabeth (not Prunella) are the children who married into the Mayo and STEAGER famlies. DCR

Dale wrote:

"We all agree there are at least two lifetimes ...."

Where in discussions did anyone agree?

The search for the person John Perratt II 1565 has taken on a metaphysical twist by the inclusion of the reference to Sinclair's of Roslin Chapel. That is not my search nor is it my emphasis. I am looking for the DISOWNED and DISENHERITED brother of Sir James Perrott who gave all the lands of the family to a distant cousin rather than recognise the (WILD ONE). Surely we can seperate a family distrust of the ravings of a religeous fanatic from the writings of "Dan Brown, Author". My sequence is not yet in the Order I hope to have it in later, but we are clearly dealing with men who skirt the law, and take huge chances with the Cromwellian faction of the English Revolution, in Royalist opposition. That's enough to make James hate and eschew any relationship to his brother "John Perratt II". DCR

I am captitulating to Mark's observation that Peratt II 1565 is not the same person as John Perrott the Quaker who must have been born 1587 to 1600. Perhaps there are 3 men and not two. I have not made that determination. DCR

OK that makes sense now, thank you for the clarification.

I am concluding that the DNA profile of Dr. Richard Edwardes matches the profile of Richard Parrott, son of James Perrott, son of Sir John Perrott as a Haplogroup R1b1 and that my I-1 Haplogroup is not that of a French Perrott/or a Tudor.

The linkage to the father of John Perratt II 1565 is now a matter of Deep Privacy....DOB = November 19, 1565, and is related to both paternal and Maternal issues long held to be secret and controversial. I am therefore leaving the public phase of this discussion having found what I came for, the Mother and father of John Perratt II 1565 father of John Rice 1630 and half brother to Perrott ap Rice 1598-99.

I can't vouch for the accuracy but there is written evidence that my Grandfather Andrew Rice 1833 while prospecting for Gold/Silver at various mine sites in Colorado, most famously at Leadville, had my grandmother send to him a mechanical engine that ran on Petrolium/diesel? for the purpose of assisting him in the mine operations at Leadville. We have the letters in our posession and are post marked with US Postage of the Era.

I have heard that this earned him a place in mineing history and the engine he used may be at the Smithsonian Musieum...but that came from a third cousin by marriage and I have not been able to find any such account on line. fyi only. The Perrott that I am most comfortable with is H.Ross Perrott, enterpreneur and of a personality that I recoginze as familial. He also is known for his opposition to the Clinton Era deal with Mexico which allowed for jobs to be exported and goods to be imported from Mexico under favorable tarrifs .
" That giant sucking sound you'll hear are AMERICAN jobs leaving the USA and going to MEXICO" Is the quote I remember. He also paid for an extraction team to go into Iran to rescue his workers during the revolution there. Prickley and Truculent, he is nevertheless a great American that I would love to say is part of my FAMILY. Alas, do not know that to be so. DCR 1948

Dale, you said, "my I-1 Haplogroup is not that of a French Perrott/or a Tudor."

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but if you are giving up the Tudor theory, then what is your basis for thinking John Rice was a Perrott? I had understood you to say months ago that you hit on the Perrott line as the most likely way that the Rices could be paternal Tudors.

John Perratt II is the name given to a NON-Perrott. He was raised in the Home of Sir John Perrott 1528 and Sybil Jones & Oxford listed him as a brother to James Perrott and Wm. the Churchman/Organist Perrott who died w/o heirs. John Perratt II is still the father of Perrott of Rice 1598-99, and the father of John Rice 1600 by Margaret ap Rice ca 1618. There is no Descent from Henry Tudor VII or VIII. He was Disowned and Disenherited as the testimony indicated and Sir James Perrott proved.

It's been one heck of a ride to come all this way denoucing the heart of the testimony, but alas that's all that is available. I can't make any more headway without attracting the worst impulses in other people. I am about hard-headed analysis, and staying with a positive energy that is ruthless in determination, but sensitive to the costs of such an investigation for innocent family members who do not share my Zeal or passion.
The next part of what I do, deep SNP analysis, will affect too many persons innocent to this search, so I must conclude the public debate. Sorry. DCR1948

http://www.geni.com/path/Siward+de+Sutton+Lord+of+Sutton+is+related...

This is the Anticedent line from which springs the person John Perratt II Born November 19, 1565 father of Perrott ap Rice 1598-99 by Margaret Mercer 1580, and John Rice 1630 by Margaret ap Rice ca 1618 whos baptism record is May 2, 1630 at North Walshingham, Norfolk, England. DCR 1948

If you have further comment or question please direct them to me privately. DCR 1948

This is the Norman or Northern French DNA connection that familly tree DNA services indicated was the origination of the Male line of my Family. It does connect to Rollo and others. this is fyi only:

http://www.geni.com/path/Ralf+Ralph+de+Meri+Mary+is+related+to+Samu...

I thought you concluded the public debate?

FYI is not debate Mark: I wanted you and others to see where this concluded, that's all. DCR

include me in the lineage of YHWH ... also as 120 th gg

So, we are going to continue. I thought so ;)

As far as I can be bothered to remember all this, it is perfectly possible that someone brought up in the Perrot family (but not immediately related to them by blood) could have taken the name of Perrot. There are plenty of Xs alias Ys in Western England, and I suppose also Pembrokeshire, at this time. He would not have been disinherited and disowned because he would not have had any inheritance rights in the first place.

I;ve pointed out a logical place to put a Perrot ap Rice. It may be wrong but I would not (unless the record suggested compleness and accuracy) have much doubts about putting on a relationship, providing I also put on a note saying why I thought the relationship existed.

The fact is that the Perrotts are damned difficult. Although Sir James Perrott may have willed his property to Herbert Perrott, he did not in fact acknowledge the claimed relationship. Contrary to what I hvae claimed previously, the relationship between the two Perrot familes of Northleigh is anything but proved.

Mark

We need a bit of re-trenching here because Dale has given up his older theory in favor of some newer, unspecified theory.

The core tradition Dale is working from says immigrant John Rice was a descendant of Henry VIII. It was Dale's (eventual) theory that John Rice belonged to the ap Rice family at Tenby, but was really a son (or brother) of Perrot ap Rice and this Perrot ap Rice (or John Rice himself) was really the son of a member of the Perrott family, and this Perrott family was descended from Sir John Perrot, supposedly an illegitimate son of Henry VIII. Each iteration contains some minor variations but this has been the basic idea.

Dale thought he had strong DNA evidence, because he tested in yDNA haplogroup I1 and he was able to find other men with this haplogroup who had surnames that could be linked in one way or another to Henry VIII.

The problem with this approach was that Dale hadn't actually linked any of his DNA matches to Henry VIII through paper genealogy. And indeed, that turned out to be a fatal flaw. Dale hasn't given us any details, but on another thread he says, "it was Dr. Richard Edwardes and Henry Carely [sic] along with Thomas Perrott son of Sir James Perrott, all coming in at R1b1 that caused me to yield". http://www.geni.com/discussions/134989?msg=943691

Dale doesn't tell us what direction he plans to take the search. His comments at http://www.geni.com/discussions/134989?msg=943574 suggest he might now be looking for a previously unknown illegitimate child of Henry VIII's daughter Elizabeth I.

Mark, responding specifically to your message about placing Perrot ap Rice.

The various Perrott families might be in disarray but the particular Perrot ap Rice who interested Dale is well-documented. His given name was Perrot after the maiden name of his father's mother.

He was an attractive candidate for Dale because he was the right age to have been the father of immigrant John Rice and his surname would explain John's. The problem was always that Perrot ap Rice had a legitimate son John whose life is also well-documented and who cannot have been immigrant John Rice. Perrot also had a legitimate brother named John, also well-documented and also impossible that he was immigrant John Rice.

So, immigrant John Rice could only have been an illegitimate son or brother.

I'm not sure why Dale wants to pursue a link to the ap Rice family at Tenby or to the Perrott family. Without the speculative Perrott link to Henry VIII, there seems to be no particular reason to put immigrant John Rice in this group.

However, Dale tells us he is still thinking along these lines. He says Sir James Perrott of Havorford West arranged for immigrant John Rice to be brought to Massachusetts by John Rice's half-brother Perrot ap Rice, who put him in the care of Edmund Rice. http://www.geni.com/discussions/134989?msg=943628

There seems to be a slip in the dating here. The way Dale words it implies he thinks John Rice came to Massachusetts 1598-9, but of course no white person was in Mass. before the Mayflower came in 1620. Edmund Rice himself didn't come until about 1638.

It's not clear whether Dale is thinking John Rice was an illegitimate son of Perrot ap Rice's father or of his mother. Perrot's parents were Thomas ap Rice and his wife Margaret Mercer. The dating would be off for this Margaret. She died in 1610, which would mean John Rice would have to be born by then, which in turn would mean that John was age 39 or more when married Ann Hackley at Dedham. And, if John Rice was placed in the care of Edmund Rice any time after Edmund came to America (circa 1638) and John Rice was born before 1610, then John was at least 28 -- a bit old to be placed in anyone's care.

So, I'm guessing that Dale is pursuing the idea that Thomas ap Rice was John Rice's father.

We also get a further clue. Dale says, "Once you locate the father of Edmund Rice, his cousin should be in hiding out in the 1/2 Siblings of the Clandestine Tudors." http://www.geni.com/discussions/134989?msg=943595

I'm not sure what this means. There is a distant genetic relationship between Edmund Rice and John Rice. They both belong to haplogroup I1 but they can't have been close relatives. Dale must be thinking that John and Edmund were related through someone's mother, so the unknown father of Edmund Rice (Stanstead, Suffolk) was some kind of cousin of Thomas ap Rice (Tenby, Pembrokeshire). That doesn't make a lot of sense, but perhaps it will become clearer as we move forward.