Is there such a thing as a descent from King David?

Started by Randy Schoenberg on Friday, January 24, 2014
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Some years ago, when I was was a co-Founder/Member and Vice President of "The Celtic Heritage Society" of Los Angeles... I was doing some research and came across, Princess Scota. At the time, I was going by my legal name "Moch" and had no information on the "Cota"? I asked if it was positive that the name "Scota" was derived for the name "Scotland" and that King Milesias and Princess Scota, reside in Ireland etc?
In the Biography of William Fredrick "Buffalo Bill" Cody, he stated that part of his lineage went back to Ancient Iberia-Spain. Cody is a recognized varient of Cota. Cote, Cody, etc. In my early research, this seems to go in sync with the name "Scota". When I found out officially that My Biological name was "Cota" and I found out that I was A Direct Cousin to "Buffalo Bill", this re-emergence of His biography and the name of "Princess Scota", may not be entirely a work of fiction?
On one of My Hebrew Lines, I do go to both "King David" and "King Solomon". Also I go through "Judah" to Jacob and Leah.
Getting back to "Princess Scota", perhaps we are so much in the forest of fiction that we can't see the trees for the worth of genealogical research that is right in our face. I think a tad bit moving a related leaf to another related branch should self-correct the issue. If we are that close to confirming this, then why dismiss it altogether? If "Princess Scota" can be taced to "King David", then I think all is well. :)

Scota cannot be traced to King David. She is a poetic fantasy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scota

I would like to agree with you Justin, but there might be new facts that "Princess Scota" might have been real... perhaps in a variant name, which is why I am not entirely dismissing this issue. To the early tribal/clan systems, The Bard or Oral Story Teller were considered highly respected for their skill in remembering The Ancient Lore of Oral Story Telling. Even "The Poet Bard" was not disrespected. In Social Anthropology, Ancient Poetry always had a saga history of making a Person, Place, or thing larger than life. From this point of view is why I don't dismiss this entirely. To what degree "Princess Scota" was or is, must a been based on a real person... perhaps not as glorified or larger than life as she has been depicted.

BTW... You can't take "Wikipedia" for being entirely accurate. "Wikipedia" got sued for posting wrong Biogtaphical Information. I found a Major FUBAR on a Biographical Article on My Biological Grandfather and I tried to have it corrected. The staff refused to recognize my facts and downplayed even my own background being a larger than life or a work of fiction. I went all all the way and Emailed, Jim Whales, The Founder of Wikipedia. He did confirm that there were some article errors written at Wikipedia. Those some errors were corrected on My Grandfather, there was a member of the staff that refused to change the origin of birth (having him born in Croatia), when it is a historical fact that he was born in Chelsea, MA. USA.

As long ago as the 1920s anthropologists had already discovered that oral traditions can be preserved for remarkable lengths of time, but only if they are contained in a rigorous metrical structure that makes it difficult to tamper. And, oral traditions have been shown to be remarkably vulnerable during a transition to a literate culture. There's that temptation to tamper with the tradition.

The fact that Scota first appears in our written sources after Ireland had been Christian for hundreds of years means that it is highly likely that an ancient Irish legend has been grafted onto the Bible.

Your theories are fun and imaginative. I hope you'll continue to share them. Just please don't try to reconnect lines we've already examined and disconnected.

In name variation... If you remove the "S" from Scota, you get "Cota". In the High or Low Germanic-Celtic, you get "Gota", with is "Goth". You had a tribal-Clan group known as the "Visigoths" and "Ostogoths", which were part of The Ancient Celtic-Gothic Tribes of Europe.
It is researched that they went as far South as what is now, Central Italy and Iberia-Spain. They inter-married with both The Roman Nobility and The Iberian-Spanish... which also included The Chieftain Lines of "The Sephardi" and very possible, some of the "The Nomadic Arabic Tribes" of the area as well. This social-political inter-mixing though true... Centuries have gone by with accurate and in-accurate information... first being "Oral" and then later being "Written". Again... if "Princess Scota" turns out to be of "The Gothic Tribes", then perhaps this could dismiss the other part of Her origin as inaccurate and/or misleading?

Alfred "Ed Moch" Cota Wikipedia doesn't have "staff" as such (what staff it has hardly ever writes articles; they're too busy keeping the machines running and dealing with lawsuit threats). It has editors - volunteer ones. In fact, the editors are the users, just like here on Geni.

Nevertheless, there are surprisingly many correct facts on Wikipedia. And if you don't think they're right, you can change them yourself (but better cite a source, or someone is likely to change them back).

Wikipedia used to be a hobby of mine until I got into Geni.

I have no intention of changing "Princess Scota" present status on Geni... unless I have accurate facts and historic documentation(s). I am just pointing out that perhaps more research needs to be done to discern the historic reality from the fiction myth and by doing this, locate Her real genealogical line(s).

Sorry Harald... It is true that "Wikipedia" has an un-paid volunteer staff and yes, they were sued (see: Seigenttaller Lawsuit). I do agree with you that "Wikipedia" has presented some accurate facts, but some of these facts were attacked by other so-called volunteer staff and "Jimbo" made numerous requests that these attacks cease. So I am well aware of some of The Good, Bad and Ugly information published at "Wikipedia".

I am told by GENI that King DAVID is my 99th great grandfather.
it is a good thing that Mr Adolf did not know about that !

Carlo Malané

Thank you Carlos :)

Fixed a 40-generation short circuit in the path to King David. He's back to a sort of more plausible 104 generations.

According to Geni, I have some interesting chart line(s) as well. So... what am I to believe? I understand that Genealogy is not an exact science, but certain facts are a mixed bag of accurate and speculative genealogical collectures. So I take it with a grain of salt as well as if like the sky is gonna fall if I am descended to King David or a person that owns a 7/11.?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking genealogy, I'm enjoying it. So all my fellow Cousin's out there, be them butchers, bakers, candlestick makers... there are gonna try to marginalize their measurements of how close or how far. If you are able to walk on water, change water into wine and still it is not good enough for them... it's no sweat off my back, it doesn't make me special that my or someone else's family chart that can be traced to "The Big Bang", I think someone is talking it way too serious. In my opinion, the "Here and Now" is where it's at and All those Ancestors that helped make it possible... Great to be Alive, All you Kings and Queens of The Universe! :)

This is a list of family names who have the oral "mesorah" (tradition) that they descend from the Royal Family of King David. One of my family names are there. My wife and sons are a direct descendant of RASHI of Troyes, rendering them descendants of King David as well. Awesome stuff.

http://www.davidicdynasty.org/surnames-believed-to-be-of-davidic-de...

107th GGF on my mother's side, according to the current path.

According to Geni, King David is my 101 Great grandfather.

Here is the (lengthy) path:
Shar Senor Carlyle
You → Mark Simon Reinsberg
your father → Adolph Reinsberg
his father → Simon Phillip Reinsberg
his father → Julie Reinsberg
his mother → Johanna Kirschbaum
her mother → Roesel Stern
her mother → Philipp Stern
her father → Jacob Süskind Stern
his father → Süsskind (Schneur) zum Stern
his father → Joseph Jacob Bingen
his father → Sprinz Bingen
his mother → Jacob Grotwol
her father → Seligmann Worms-Grotwol, zum Hasen
his father → Gutlin Worms
his mother → Beer SeGal, zum Buchsbaum
her father → Guetlin (Gutlin) Buchsbaum
his mother → Simmel HaLevi aus Eppstein
her father → Jakob Natan HaLevi aus Eppstein
his father → Natan (aus Eppstein) HaLevi
his father → ? HaLevi, Jr.
his father → ? HaLevi
his father → ? HaLevi, Sr.
his father → Aaron haLevi haRoeh of Barcelona -
his father → Yosef Halevi Benveniste, Rabbi
his father → Shem Tob Benveniste HaLevi of Tortosa
his father → YOSEF ben ZERCHIA / YOSEF HAGADOL - POSSIBLY DUPLICATION of GENERATION BELOW
his father → Zerachiah Gracian-Hen haLevi of Girona (Ba'al haMaor)
his father → Unknown Wife of Yitzchak Ha'Levi Hayizhari bat Perfet Sheshet Nasi
his mother → Reina bat Barzilai
her mother → Bonadona bat Mar Shealtiel Ibn Lakhtush
her mother → Mar Solomon Shealtiel "Felez Ferruz" bar Mar Shealtiel, Nasi, Vizier
her father → Yitzhak ben Chyzkia
his father → Hizkiya Gaon Nasi al-Yerushalayim (Qaraite in later life)
his father → David ben Zakkai, Exilarch
his father → Hizkiya "Zuṭṭa" ben Yehudah, Exilarch #30,33 & 35, Final Gaon of Pumbeditha
his father → Yehuda "Zakai" ben David, 29th Exilarch 'Judah II'
his father → David Avraham ben Hazub, Exilarch 'Rab David II', haSofer b'Pumbeditha
his father → R' David Nathan ben Chazub, Exilarch, Rosh Golah of Judah
his father → Mar Rab Judah 'Hazub' bar Pinchas, Exilarch, Gaon, haSofer of Pumbeditha
his father → Rab David I 'Pinchas' ben Abdimi, Exilarch & Gaon of Ramla
his father → Rab Dimi 'Abba Dimi' ben Nechemiah II, 9th Exilarch & Gaon of Ramla
his father → Nechemya ben Magis ben Magis, 8th Exilarch & Gaon of Tiberias "Nechemya II
his father → Haninai "Magis/Majus" ben Mar Sutra II ben Mar Sutra II, 7th Exilarch & Gaon of Tiberias
his father → Rav Yakob 'Zakai' ben Mar Sutra II, 5th Exilarch & Gaon of Tiberias
his father → Mar Sutra II bar Guriya, 4th Exilarch & Gaon of Tiberias
his father → Mar Sutra I "Guriya" ben Mar Zutra III, 3rd Exilarch & Gaon of Tiberias
his father → Mar Sutra II (Sa'adya) ben Mar Tsutra I, 2nd Exilarch & Gaon of Tiberias
his father → Mar Zutra III a/k/a Mar Sutra I ben Mar Zutra II, 1st Exilarch of Tiberias
his father → Mar Zutra II, 30th Exilarch
his father → Rav David ben Rabeina II, Grandson of Exilarch Mar Huna IV
his father → Havah bat Mar Huna IV
his mother → Huna ben Nathan, Mar Huna IV, 24th Exilarch
her father → Nathan bar Abba Mari, 21st Exilarch Nathan II
his father → Tsaina bat Musa
his mother → Musa "Rav Papa" bar Yosef, resh metivta al-Nehardea, 5th Gen Amora
her father → P'nina bat Huna
his mother → Anani bar Nathan, 8th Exilarch Huna II
her father → Nathan ben Nachum, 7th Exilarch 'Mar Ukba I'
his father → Nachum ben Achaya, 2nd Exilarch Nachum II
his father → Achaya bar Akkub, 1st Exilarch 2nd Dynasty
his father → Ya'akov ben Shlomo, Exilarch
his father → Shlomo ben Hunya, Exilarch Interregnum
his father → Hunya ben Nathan, Exilarch Interregnum
his father → Nathan ben Shalom, Exilarch Interregnum
his father → Shalom II ben Hizkiya, Exilarch Interregnum
his father → Hizkiya ben Shehanya, 33rd Exilarch Hizkiya III
his father → Shechanya II ibn Da'ud, Exilarch
his father → Da'ud ben Shemaya ben Shemaya, Exilarch
his father → Shemaya I ben Shlomo
his father → Shlomo III ibn Da'ud Exilarch
his father → Da'ud ibn Akkub
his father → Uknown bat Hizkiya ibn Nearya
his mother → Hizkiyahu II ibn Nearya 21st Exilarch
her father → Neriyah, 18th Exilarch, Dayan, Menton, Yahya, Weinstok Line
his father → Shemayahu ben Shechanya 13th Exilarch
his father → Shechanya ben Ovadya 12th Exilarch
his father → Obadya ibn Arnan, 11th Exilarch
his father → Arnan ben Rafaya Exilarch
his father → Rafaya ben Yishaya, 10th Exilarch
his father → Yishaya ben Hananya, 8th Exilarch
his father → Hasadya ., 7th Exilarch
his father → Berakhiya ., 6th Exilarch
his father → Hananya, 5th Exilarch
his father → Meshullam the Scribe / משולם הסופר, 4th Exilarch
his father → Zerubbabel 3rd Exilarch / זרובבל
his father → Shealtiel, 2nd Exilarch / שאלתיאל
his father → Tamar .
his mother → Zedekiah / Mattanyahu, Last King of Judah
her father → Josiah King of Judah
his father → Amon King of Judah
his father → Menasseh King of Judah
his father → Hephzi-bah .
his mother → Isaiah the Prophet
her father → Amoz .
his father → Jehoash King of Judah
his father → Ahaziah King of Judah
his father → Jehoram King of Judah
his father → Jehosaphat King of Judah
his father → Asa King of Judah
his father → Ana de Naftali de Naftali
his mother → Basemath .
her mother → King Solomon
her father → David King of Israel
his father

Private Your math is erroneous like thinking if I have two parents and 8 great grandparents, what's not to say that none of my ancestors were related, that being the case I could conceivable have 6 great grandparents.
Adam Daniel Buttons Your idea is rather ridiculous, the Torah clearly states that a Cohen can't marry a non-Jew so that would mean that you're not a Cohen. It has nothing to do with dividing the Jewish people, but rather preservation.

Actually, that is my point. Though it's far less likely that you would have two great grandparents who were related and not know it, but the further back you go the more certain it is that they cross.

The total number of ancestors at 64 generations is some 18 quintillion, which I believe is probably several times more than the total population of the earth that ever existed.

So, you most certainly will have ancestors who are related, since we are all related.

I found that in one line, where I clicked on Geni finding my connection to a certain person, and he came out to be my multi great ancestor through one of my more recent GGFs. I went back to his GF, and clicked again to trace the ancestry, and it came through my GGM married to that same GGF. Looking at the lines I found how they managed to lead down two different paths to me.

So, yes, we all have ancestors who cross, and the further back you go the more certain it is. Of course that reduces the total number of ancestors, but that has to be because there has never been enough human beings to provide that many ancestors.

Again, that's my point, our lines must cross over and over again.

Just as ours do with:

hʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim

That makes us 46th cousins, once removed.

I have to disagree with some of Hatte Rubenstein Blejer Anne Blejer's statements. Studies have shown that the Ashkenazi differ from the Sephardim in that, while both show Jewish origins for the Y-chromosones, the Ashkenazi mtDNA show that almost all of the ancestral grandmothers of the Ashkenazi were non-Jewish. Thus those Jewish men who moved into the areas which they were to make their homelands, (I'm surmising traders), did so without wives and so took wives from among the Roman and Germanic, (and some Celtic), peoples among whom they settled. So..., there must have been, had to have been, interfaith marriages at that time, (placed in the 2nd &/or 3rd centuries, IIRC), on a wide scale.
This would explain the frequent appearance of auburn hair among an ostensibly Semitic population, as well other genetic propensities that set the Ashkenazi apart as a distinct gene-pool, such as a great facility for mathematics, and those representative diseases of the AJGP: Bloom Syndrome; Canavan Disease; Cystic Fibrosis; Familial Dysautonomia (FD); Familial Hyperinsulinism; Fanconi Anemia, Group C; Gaucher Disease, Type 1; Glycogen Storage Disease, Type I; Joubert Syndrome 2; Maple Syrup Urine Disease; Mucolipidosis IV; Nemaline Myopathy; Niemann-Pick Disease (Type A); Tay-Sachs Disease; Spinal Muscular Atrophy; Torsion Dystonia; Dihydrolipoamide Dehydrogenase Deficiency; Usher Syndrome (Type 1F and Type III); Walker-Warburg Syndrome. And possibly other factors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence). These all distinguish Ashkenazim from the Sephardim. These differences had to come from somewhere. Somewhere outside the shared Judaic origin.
There are also anecdotal instances to counter this catholic application of a common assumption.

Regarding intermarriage among Romans, Germans, and some Celts: Wikipedia says there's more to Jewish red hair than that:

Mediterranean

The Berber populations of Morocco[14] and northern Algeria have occasional redheads. Red hair frequency is especially significant among the Riffians from Morocco and Kabyles from Algeria, whose frequence reaches 10%[15] and 4%,[16][17] respectively. The Queen of Morocco, Lalla Salma wife of king Mohammed VI, has red hair. Abd ar-Rahman I also had red hair, his mother being a Christian Berber slave. Red hair can also be found in Southern Europe. In Southern Italy, according to a source published 1939, 16% of the population has red or auburn hair.[18][19]

Red hair is also found amongst the Ashkenazi Jewish populations.[20] In European culture, prior to the 20th century, red hair was often seen as a stereotypically Jewish trait: during the Spanish Inquisition, all those with red hair were identified as Jewish.[21] In Italy, red hair was associated with Italian Jews, and Judas was traditionally depicted as red-haired in Italian and Spanish art.[22] Writers from Shakespeare to Dickens would identify Jewish characters by giving them red hair.[23] The stereotype that red hair is Jewish remains in parts of Eastern Europe and Russia.[24]
Asia

In Asia, genetic red hair is rare, but can be found in the Levant (Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel and Palestine), in Turkey, in Caucasia, in Northern Kazakhstan, among Uighurs and among Indo-Iranians.

I think the Ashkenazi genetic diseases came from not having enough of a gene pool to marry into in the early years. Just look at the DNA relatives on ancestry.com -- It's almost impossible to find out how we're related because we're already related....

T. Stanford Michael Stephen Patrick Francis Mommaerts-Brown - I'm aware of the fact that early Jewish traders married non-Jewish women. I heard Bennett Greenspan give that lecture in 2013 in Boston at the IAGJS. VERY EARLY. My posts were about practices in the past few hundred years.

As for Jewish genetic diseases, you miss the boat on that topic. This has to do with endogamy among people who lived in small communities and were prohibited from traveling or marrying outside their region AND who married only people from certain families. My family is a good example. We have several obvious genetic conditions and my family tree for as long as there are records or rabbinical genealogies is full of cousin marriages.

Sephardim also practiced endogamy, as did Crypto Jews after the Inquisition and also have specific Jewish diseases known among Sephardic families.

I think you have mostly misstated what is known currently and instead accepted some not very well based research that was popular a few years ago.

This path seems to be missing approx. 20-25 generations, doesn't it?

http://www.geni.com/path/Theresa-Renée-Eléna-Delgado-Tossas+is+rela...

If anyone who is well informed on the lineages, could check it out, that would be great.

xoxoxoTheresa Renée
p.s. *side Note. my paternal family - Tosas/Tossas are well known, for their auburn hair. My maternal family - Cox, as well.

Theresa Renée Eléna Tossas-Cox one simple way of checking is hovering over the people in the paths and seeing where their birth dates jump. Then you can start a discussion on a specific pair.

For instance, this father and son:

Zeredah ben Antigone
Antigone Soko ben Simeon

seem to have estimated birthdates about 250 years apart.

Figuring out where the stories originated.... that is harder.

Stephen C. Reed, MM


David King of Israel

David King of Israel is Stephen C. Reed, MM's 85th great grandfather!
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x

Stephen C. Reed, MM
You



Elizabeth Anne Reed
your mother


Anne Louise Sylvester, Adams
her mother



Anne Flora Smith
her mother



Alice Inez Smith
her mother



Andrew Ervin Burke
her father



Joseph Burke
his father



Joseph Burk
his father



James Edward Burke, Sr.
his father



John Bourke
his father



Richard Bourke
his father



John Bourke
his father



Ulrick Bourke, 3rd Earl of Clanricarde
his father



Richard "Sassanagh" de Burke (d. 1582), 2nd Earl of Clanricarde
his father



Ulick Bourke, 1st Earl of Clanricarde
his father



Richard Mor Bacach Burke or de Burgh
his father



Egelina de Courtenay
his mother



Hugh Courtenay, MP
her father



Sir Edward de Courtenay, 11th Earl of Devon, I
his father



Margaret de Bohun, Countess of Devon
his mother



Elizabeth of Rhuddlan, Countess of Hereford
her mother



Eleanor of Castile, Queen consort of England
her mother



Ferdinand III the Saint, King of Castile
her father



Alfonso IX el Baboso, rey de León y Galicia
his father



Fernando II, rey de León
his father



Alfonso VII the Emperor, King of of Castile and Leon
his father



Urraca I, reina de Castilla y León
his mother



Alfonso VI el Bravo, rey de León y de Castilla
her father



Sancha I, reina de León
his mother



Elvira Menéndez, reina consorte de León
her mother



Tutadonna Moniz de Coimbra
her mother



Munio Forjaz de Coimbra
her father



Froila Gutiérrez, III conde de Trastámara, Conde de Astorga
his father



Santa Ilduara
his mother



Ero Fernández de Lugo, Conde de Lugo
her father



Fernando Rodríguez de Monterroso
his father



Rodrigo Romaes, II conde de Monterroso e de Santa Marta de Ortigueira
his father



Teresa Arias
his mother



Arias Núñez, senhor da Casa do Sirgal
her father



Elvira Sorred
his mother



Sorred Fernández de Saavedra, Señor de Sotomayor
her father



Ylduara / Aldara Arias
his mother



Ylduara Lúcida
her mother



Arceriunda
her mother



Severianus, count of Cartagena
her father



Aviena
his mother



Rufius Gennadius Avienus
her father



Aviena
his mother



Sextus Anicius Faustus Paulinianus
her father



Asinia Juliana Nicomacha
his mother



Gaius Asinius Nicomachus Julianus
her father



Gaius Asinius Quadratus Protimus
his father



Julia Quadratilla
his mother



Aulus Julius Claudius Charax
her father



Julia Quadratilla Bassa Quadratilla Bassa
his mother



Julia Iotapa
her mother



Alexander, King of Cilicia
her father



Tigranes VI, King of Armenia
his father



Alexander II of Judaea
his father



Alexander, Prince of Judaea
his father



Mariamne I, princess of Judaea
his mother



Esther (Elizabeth) of Jerusalem (bat Hyrcanus) Hasmonean Princess Alexandra II )
her mother



Hyrcanus II Maccabaeus Hasmoen, High Priest & King
her father



Salome Alexandra, Queen of Judaea
his mother



Yohanan (John) I Hyrcanus
her father



Rabbi Yossel ben Yohanan
his father



Rabbi Yohanan ben Joazar
his father



Rabbi Joazar ben Zeredah
his father



Zeredah ben Antigone
his father



Antigone Soko ben Simeon
his father



Simeon I Saddiq ben Elias
his father



Elias ben Tobit, Governor of Judea 365-360 BCE
his father



Hananiah
his father



Hattush
his father



Meshullam the Scribe / משולם הסופר, 4th Exilarch
his father



Zerubbabel 3rd Exilarch / זרובבל
his father



Shealtiel, 2nd Exilarch / שאלתיאל
his father



Jechoniah Yehoyakhin King of Judah
his adoptive father



Josiah King of Judah
his father



Jedidah
his mother



Jehosheba .
her mother



Jehoram King of Judah
her father



Jehosaphat King of Judah
his father



Asa King of Judah
his father



Abijah King of Judah
his father



Rehoboam King of Judah
his father



King Solomon
his father



David King of Israel
his father

I have recently severed the connections of the Horowitz and Epstein families to the Benveniste Halevy family in Spain, because the legends of Spanish descent seem to have been invented without good sources in the late 19th century, when apparently there was a fad to "find" such connections. See http://www.avotaynuonline.com/2016/03/does-the-horowitz-family-from... So my path to King David no longer exists. There are still some other Jewish paths (e.g. via Katzenllenbogen/Luria) so that some people might still have ones that we can check for mistakes.

He's my 93rd ggf, but the path is through my mother which is interesting considering I'm a direct descendant of R' Meir Katzenellenbogen.

Geni finds the shortest path, and there are more short-circuits in the non-Jewish path.

I guess so.

King David is listed as my 96th Great Grandfather. But I am not Jewish. How can that be?

Betty, the first reason is that almost all of the lines are fake. We really need to get our Spanish curators involved in a project to clean up the medieval Spanish lines. They still have many of these fake lines.

The second reason is that the lines go through royalty, and almost all of us western Europeans share those same, distant royal lines whether we know it or not.

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