Is there such a thing as a descent from King David?

Hi Eric,
(my second great uncle's first cousin once removed's husband's first cousin twice removed's wife's nephew.)

King David / דוד המלך . 
King David of Israel

and then "how are you related"

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/artifac...

Thanks for the link to that article Garth!

As for me, I'm a firm believer King David existed, as well as all of his descendants.

Sylvia M. Hertel
Lead, S.D.

I believe that king david and all the bible peaple did exist. They are part of our faith

Bella bracha Rosenberg: I believe too. For me is strange to doubt it. Our Genologists and geneological knowledge which they have are great but the Bible and King David are greater.

i aagree with you

God gave ALL of the children of Israel a family crest of their fathers house we all have a family crest do you have a lion up on your coat of Arms of your father or your mothers fathers or your mothers mother's father is so then you are a child of Israel Numbers 2
Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house:

these family crest identify the children of Israel as they traveled throughout the whole world
king David comes from Judah and their symbols are lions Genesis 49:9

Okay, I'm out of here!

While you may know your Torah - that does NOT mean by any stretch of ones imagination that a crest has any factual relationship to ones true ancestry. It is one of the reason that claiming to be Kohanim or Levite is so problematical !!!

PROVE IT - PROVE IT - PROVE IT .....

MANY Jews married into European non- Jewish families. Why would it be so difficult to believe a Christian could be able to trace their lineage back to King David, or any other famous Jewish personality?

Sylvia M. Hertel

Now that we have DNA, we know that there is not just one Cohen DNA or Levite DNA as Rick says.

That being said, all Jews are likely descended from King David, just as all Europeans are descended from Charlemagne. (Or nearly all.)

I don't pay any attention personally to relatives before around 1400 - 1500 because the records are usually just not there / reliable.

Marriage between non-Jews and Jews did not occur for hundreds of years in Europe although rape did occur. Even Catholics and Protestants did not marry until recently.

People married within their own socio-economic class and religion and ethnic group in the vast majority of instances. In the case of Jews, they mostly married cousins, especially the rabbinical families. That is because they were not allowed to live in most towns and lived in small villages and could only marry and travel within a limited (administrative) region and so finding a suitable spouse was severely limited.

Any marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew is either very very recent or goes back to some period well before Catholic Church's control over Europe.

In fact, as you must all know, there was no such thing as civil marriage for centuries.

How many of you have looked at the World Compendium of Herbert Hoeh? Herbert W. Armstrong and his son wrote a number of prophetic books based on Hoeh's research. I have a lot of questions concerning their works. The Church of God has a whole lot of publications out based on them, namely Gerald and Stephan Flurry of the Philadelphia Church of God, and Craig White, that I'm aware of. The Flurrys publish a magazine called "The Trumpet".

Here are some links.

www.cgca.net/coglinks/wcglit/hoehcompendium/hhc1toc.htm, by Herbert Hoeh.

www.originofnations.org, by Craig White

www.originofnations.org, by Ken Johnson, Th.D., writer of "Ancient Post-Flood History".

Obviously, these are all Christians, but they quote many ancient historians, and Jewish histories, such as the Book of Jashar, Jubilees, the Books of Enoch and the Ancient Seder Olam (Christian version).

I wonder what kind of answers the Geni experts would have to these authors and ancient books, as well as the ancient historians they quote.

Most Sincerely,
Sylvia M. Hertel

As I said, prior to very recent times, Jews and non-Jews did not marry although there were likely offspring born of rape of Jewish women by non-Jewish men such as during pogroms, during the time of the Cossack rebellion in Ukraine between the years 1648–1657 and at other times.

In general, religious writings are not history, and that includes all religious writings. They have a different agenda and source.

Hattie,

I know your correct on your religious history and intermarrying between them, but I started finding coats of arms in the 1600's. Of course, many family researchers like to display coats of arms to their family surnames long after they went out of use.

I have another question: Most of the family lines which have coats of arms come out of the Baden, Wuerttemberg, Bavaria provinces of Germany, and from there (the ones I've been able to get further back in time) back to Switzerland.

I've also noticed, because all my family comes from all over Germany, that when choosing a marriage partner, they are very tribal in their choices, at least up to WWII. I know in Roman times, there were many more tribes than there are provinces today, but I also know that many tribes agreed to marry within each other, and that's how the provinces of Germany we see today came about.

I sure would like to hear the thoughts of both Jewish and secular historians on these areas of history.

Most Sincerely,
Sylvia M. Hertel
Lead, S.D.

No, Dakotans aren't so dumb. They're almost all of 100% of Germanic descent. What do you expect?

Hattie,

So when did the intermarrying begin between Jews and non-Jews?

Sylvia

Hattie,

Does that include Josephus? He was a Jewish historian.

Sylvia

Josephus was a historian. Also Jewish. His writings are history, not religious doctrine.

Depending upon the location, a few marriages between people of different religious backgrounds happened in the 1800s. As people migrated, living in cities, and after the Enlightenment, the number of marriages between people of different religions increased in the 1900s. My parents married in 1948 and their marriage was still somewhat unusual (he was Jewish, she was Christian).

(No Name), the Worldwide Church of God's teachings are a little bit controversial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Communion_International#Histori... seems to be as good a place as any to start reading.

I'm not at all an expert on the history of coats of arms so can't comment.

What I do know is that people stuck to their own ethnic and religious groups and that marriages were usually arranged up until the 20th century.

I know there was no intermarrying, although there is no such thing as never, during the ghetto period of Europe, but until 1492, There was a great deal of intermarrying between the Sephardic Jews and the Spanish, and even among the Moors.

I also know that during feudal times, there was a desperate need for artisans and merchants, a middle class, if you will. There must have been some intermarrying in those days. It was a quick way of getting one's self up the financial ladder.

Which brings up another question. In the feudal times, is when the knights and castles were a big deal. All knights had coats of arms, but according to secular history, avoiding the word never, the knights were not of Jewish descent. They were Europeans, who had merely pulled enough money and favor together to build a castle and own land for the serfs to farm. The Jews were merely allowed to fill in the gap between the serfs and the knights.

Truly the Jews have been used and abused by the European Christians. It makes me ashamed to say I'm European, but for other reasons than just that.

Sylvia M. Hertel

Adam,

Thank you for summing it up so nicely.

Is anyone aware the Hapsburgs had Jewish roots, according to the Spanish Hapsburgs, who kept close records?

Sylvia M. Hertel

Harald,

Controversial is putting it mildly, in my opinion, but I'm glad to hear it from someone else.

Thank you.

I'll check out the link.

Sylvia

If you are going to have a serious discussion on this issue, your first challenge is one of definitions. What constitutes a jew or a gentile? Are those that are referred to as "marronos" or conversos, (per Wikipedia - originally Jews living in the Iberian Peninsula who converted or were forced to convert to Christianity, mostly around the time of the Spanish Inquisition) jewish or christian? Will you be considering people who "left their homeland" in order to marry? Will you consider those who married and kept their own faith? All the way through the Pentateuch (Torah - the original 5 Books of Moses) you find those that were called "Hebrews" marrying those outside the Hebrew tribes. History is full of examples. So - what does all of this mean ???

Intermarriage as we refer to it today - those who marry, where one partner is Jewish and the other of some other faith tradition, is really a product of modernity. Primarily in Europe, except for the Iberian peninsula, Jews did not begin to have any significant civil rights until the German principalities began issuing "Letters of Protection" as a response to the Crusades moving through Germany on the way to the Holy Land. These letters began to be issued in more significant numbers in the early 16th century and forward. Only at this point did the major jewish communities begin to have significant interaction with their christian counterparts. So personal relationships were rare between the religious groups - they were few and far between. Add to that women were rarely involved in any form of commerce in ANY religious group, except for home or food issues, and you have even greater limits on associations. Next came the emancipation in so many forms for so many different people as a result of Napoleon and the exposure he brought to much of Europe.

I am not an historian, but I believe most Jewish scholars in the US see intermarriage as a post civil war occurrence and continuing through today. Some current surveys place the total Jewish rate of intermarriage at approaching 1/3 here in the US with about half having Jewish homes and the other half the faith (or not) of the other partner.

I am not sure any of this helps - but this is the best I can provide in this small space. There are MANY significant publications and articles within the last few years that are available to anyone wishing to do some limited research.

Hattie,
The other Jewish books I referred to were also considered historical, not religious. By the way, I unintentionally left Josephus off that list, but no book on that list was considered inspirational, religious or perfect in its information, only written by ancient Jewish historians, who happened to be considered pretty accurate.

Sylvia

Sylvia, if you're interested in the Jewish origin of the Habsburgs, talk to me privately. This is one of my research projects.

The Habsburgs didn't make any particular genealogical claims until after Rudolf I became emperor. One of the first stabs at finding an exalted pedigree for them said that they were descended from the Pierleoni. That was great because everyone thought the Pierleoni were descendants of Julius Caesar's cousin. Then, it turned out the Pierleoni were descended from a Jewish banking family. The Habsburgs dropped that idea right away. Over the centuries they invented different pedigrees for themselves, but with modern research methods in the 18th century, it turned out they were really descendants of the old Dukes of Alsace.