Ragnar "Lodbrok" Sigurdsson - 31st Great Grandfather

Started by Private User on Monday, October 28, 2013
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Showing 361-390 of 792 posts

I dont think dates can be set like that when we are talking about the dataes. You should remember they are built on a long standing oral tradition.
The only plave we can say something for sure is at the burial mound of Gorm the Old and Thyra, and that is because the diggs there is telling us a story, not because it is written down in one of the sagas.

In Saxo it tells us that Aslaug was stepmother to some of the Ragnar sons, Other places there has been a mixup of first and second wife.

The name "Lodbrok" Means hairy cloth/trousers (or just fu)r and its his name among his men. This fact you wil find in Ynglinge Saga and The Saga of his own. According to the sources, he is the son of Sigurd Ring and Alfhild.
He was married firstly to Thora Borgahjort by her to sons Erik and Agnar.
Second wife was Aslaug called "Kraka". By his second wife he had 5 sons all proved historic persons. People in this tread does obvious not know the sagas and the writtings of Adam of Bremen. Therefore a lot of the "facts" in this tread are false!

Alex Moes the problem with all "disconnect" theories is that the sagas were written in part to show exactly the connections that the scholars want to cut - so the "where do we cut" problem just keeps on being pushed around. Given that the biggest source of Ragnar stories is "the tale of Ragnar's sons", it would seem silly to cut between Ragnar and his sons, if his sons are to be represented at all .... and so on down the line.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to extrapolate dates, unless there is firm evidence to support them. It's one thing to say that someone died before a certain date, but very different to start guessing when children might have been born. I can understand doing that in a working copy, as a quality check to make sure everything is consistent, but in a reference database like Geni it's better to leave unknown dates blank.

Lars Rømer-Nygaard you write "Second wife was Aslaug called "Kraka". By his second wife he had 5 sons all proved historic persons."

What are the proofs for your claim that these 5 sons are proven historic persons?

Adam of Bremen only mentions that Ivar is the son of Lodparchus, not mentioning any firstname or patronymicon of Ivar's father, which will make doubt about wether Ivar was the son of this Ragnar.

The more southerly European sources (English annals, German annals, the saga of Rollo that we call Ganger-Rolf) do have numbered years in them. Those are the attachment points on which we can hang inferences of the form "if saga X is correct, person Y must have been born before year W and died after year Z".

But all such processes must by their very nature produce ranges, not precise dates. Writing "c. 865" gives (to me) a false sense that the truth is more likely to be in the middle of a given range, and can't represent the difference between "somewhere in these 5 years" and "somewhere in these 100 years".

I'm not worried so much about assigning dates or ranges to something that can be anchored in a source, but about assigning birth dates based on almost nothing. It is possible to find a defensible death date for Ragnar, but I'd be skeptical of an attempt to fix a birth date, or even a range, for him, for his wives, and for his children. It becomes almost pure guesswork, with a net effect that it is all a row of dominoes, likely to be knocked down if any piece is wrong.

I agree with Justin (unsurprisingly!). Someone on Geni put in arbitrary life-spans of 100 years apiece for all of their medieval "ancestors", at a time when 50 years even for an aristocrat was old, with the predictable result that when you get to ascertainable dates of matches you find them, predictably. 150 years out.

Mark

Ah but Harald Tveit Alvestrand i already prefaced my comment yesterday by saying that as far as i am concerned we are not dealing with the "truth", this is fiction, if truth was the goal then some sort of "disconnect" would be needed. :)

Justin Durand, if the guy didn't even exist as a singular person how can we anchor him to a source? What i am proposing is deductive reasoning not guess work, as for your domino illusion it has already fallen when Saxo states that Lagthera was the first wife but the sagas say Thora - both cannot be correct but neither can be discounted so we are already in dead lock.

Lars Rømer-Nygaard Saxo predates the _written_ versions of the sagas that we have and Adam (who was a German christian). As for experts, McTurk theorises that Loðbróka is feminine and that "Ragnar Lodbrok" as the father of Ívarr is actually a son of Reginheri/Ragnarr and Loðbróka.
The profile currently has 21 children not 7 so commenting on that might be more helpful.

Mark, i received an odd compliment at work once that even though i was often wrong i was consistent in my errors which made it easy for the tradesmen to compensate for while the other engineers made random errors that couldn't be predicted.

I have disagreed with Justin over how many people in the early middle ages even knew their birthdays. Sometimes, in the later middle ages, you get people saying their exact age, down to the days, on their fsther's death in his post-mortem inqusition. More often you just get an age (and very often just "over 20 years old". But sometimes you can get a precise date in the year (Latin-style) because that is when monks have been paid to pray for them, but absolutely no idea what year it refers to. Maddening.

Mark

Why fictionalize more than absolutely necessary? It's common enough even for real people to come to the kind of deadlock you're worried about. If we don't know the order of a man's wives we just leave it unknown.

If you are interested in a project of recovering the "original" Ragnar, there are many academic works on the subject. Hilda Davidson does a good job of isolating the various characters that went into making his composite. I thought that piece was in The Lost Beliefs Of Northern Europe, but apparently not. Must be in one of the others.

Ragnar Lodbrok is a fictional character so anything said about him is by definition fictional.

If we had multiple profiles for each of the historical men that have been merged into the fictional character then i would agree with Harald's and your comments about being very conservative with dates but that is not what is being presented.

I don't want to side track this but are there profiles for those historical men? There does not seem to be, a Geni search for "Ragnar" filtered for birth pre-1000 AD produces 68 results of which 2 are MPs, the remaining 66 contain a smattering of duplicates and fakes as well as some just random people with the name ragnar, no MP profiles for famous vikings with "Ragnar Lodbrok" in their AKA field.

Searching for "Ironside" has equally interesting though unhelpful results. Searches for "Berno" or "Bier", as candidates for the historical Bjorn, turn up nothing useful at all.

@Remi Trygve Pedersen
Several quotes from different earlier sources are assembled in "Roskildekrøniken" which is written before 1147 - further more "Snorres Saga of Kings" is very specific on theese person. Along with Several Icelandic Sagas and their tables of Family relations. All together with the scpripts from monks and all includes the same gallery of persons and telling the same facts this to me

@Remi Trygve Pedersen
Adam of Bremens most famous work is Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum.

http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_af_Bremen

Alex Moes [Moeskoecker]: I did not say that Ragnar is a fictional caracter. actually I believe I said that I think he is a real person. and so does a lot of danish historical.
What I dont believe is that he is 8 feet tall and can walk on water.

When you get before the age of Gorm the Old in danish history. That is the date around 890- and forward all you have is the sagas, some different christian anals, that are not more trustworthy or less than the sagas and a few things found in the dirt that can confirm or dismiiss what is said in the sagas- That is if it tells us anything.
This kind of thing is not an accurate science, bute it that does not meen you can dismiss it

I thik we should take the sagas for what they are. Stories about the world as the vikings wanted to see it.
There is trhruth in it, but we will have to look at the different sources and see what result is the most likely.

When that is said. I believe the familylines desciped in the sagas can be used here as long as everyone is aware of the obsticles there is with this kind of sources.

I don't think it's quite accurate to say Ragnar was a fictional character. He might have been, but it would be more accurate to say he is a composite character.

I've been going through my books tonight to see what I can find, but everything I have just assumes there is general agreement he is a composite.

Finally, I looked at English Wikipedia and found what I was remembering.

"These candidates for the "historical Ragnar" include:

* King Horik I (d. 854),
* King Reginfrid (d. 814),
* a king who ruled part of Denmark and came into conflict with Harald Klak,
* one "Reginherus" who attacked Paris in the middle of the ninth century,
possibly the Rognvald of the Irish Annals, and
* the father of the Viking leaders who invaded England with the Great Heathen Army in 865."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar_Lodbrok

This is from Hilda Davidson (as I thought), but from an edition of Saxo Grammaticus (1980). I've seen that, but don't have a copy.

From a genealogical standpoint, I think it's reasonable to treat a minimalist Ragnar as the (problematic) father of his supposed sons.

There is a lot of references to Ragnar and especiaaly his sons in the danish sagas.
The same goes for Norvegians and the Islandic sagas.

I am happy to call him composite or fictional, which ever you prefer. I was not imply that he was invented out of thin air.

Ragnar's profile has a document attached as a source by Erica which Remi has linked to previously which gives a good summation of the likely suspects for the historical persons behind Composite Ragnar and Bjorn Ironside's profile has an entire McTurk article in it's About that looks at the same issue. Both are fascinating reads i think.

Anette, i did not mean to imply Ragnar never existed in any way at all, clearly someone was the starting point of the legend but the scholars seem to agree that the Sagas and Annals have combined more than one person. I think you agree with this, yes?
As the Sagas and Annals all tell slightly different stories we are left either trying to combine everything in every story and juggle it about to make sense (what is the cut off date? Snorri?)
That is what i was trying to attempt to do, make a sensible Composite Ragnar while acknowledging that any composite will never be an accurate reflection of the actual person due to the fact that there was more than one person behind the legend.

Regardless of how we go forward with Ragnar could a Curator make the changes i requested yesterday on page 12 of this discussion.

http://www.geni.com/discussions/129645?msg=1013754 regarding the inappropriate son.

http://www.geni.com/discussions/129645?msg=1013734 regarding a "son?" named Sward II, muddled up wives names and Ragnar's Christening (down the bottom on the post).

They are only small issues but every journey, no matter how long, begins with a single step.

PS I'd be happy to clean up the About sections of Ragnar, Ivar, Bjorn, etc (without losing any data) but these sections are locked against editing.

Alex I can promise that I will have a look at Ragnars profile. I dont now if I managed to to it today or even tomrrow, but the area needs a cleanup.
I agree that Tagnar problely is made out of more than one person.

Maybe we should make a Curatornote stating that the profile/area is under review? How does people feel about that?

Maybee people/Alex could attache the different thinks I most definately need to look at about this profile. That way I dont miss anything we talked about here.
If you wants to send me info please do!!

//Lars Rømer-Nygaard "The name "Lodbrok" Means hairy cloth/trousers (or just fu)r and its his name among his men. This fact you wil find in Ynglinge Saga and The Saga of his own."

That is equal to "Leather pants ".

Lars Rømer-Nygaard all of those sources are written several hundred years after the events and life of "the Ragnars", and can not be viewed as proving anything because of the large timespan between the events and the tie of writing the sagas, books, annals and whatever.

We even don't know who has copied who and what is the main source for all of the later writings. Did the writers just want to write the stories as they had either heard or read about, or did the writers have an agenda when writing the stories. There are to many unknowns that saying any of these persons are "proven historic persons" is streching the line to it's braking point, and in my view beyond. I don't see a single thing that is proven or historic about these persons, all I see are sagas and good fanciful stories, and as such they have no genealogical value.

It is clear that a lot of the stories or the thruth of the sagas is lost in time. Hovever sometimes some things show up from the dirt. Archaeologist in England how found somthing very interessting in the ground resently.
Its not about Ragnar, but it gives the Islandic sagas and Saxo a shine of thruth to it, that is hard to dismiss. So maybee the stories about Ragnar and his descendents is not completely of.

This is from a danish magazin: Historie.
http://historienet.dk/civilisationer/vikingerne/jomsborg-var-maaske...

"51 kranier fundet i England
bærer jomsvikingernes tegn:
De er blevet halshugget
forfra – mens de så
deres bøddel i øjnene."

ØSTERSØENS
LEJESVENDE
Nordeuropa/Ca. år 980
Vikingetidens konger udkæmper
blodige krige mod hinanden.
De har kun små stående
hære selv, så veltrænede
lejesoldater har gyldne tider. Jomsborg
Danmark
Ingen ved, hvor de boede, og mange
historikere tvivler på deres eksistens.
Men nye fund i England viser, at
sagaernes
beretninger om de frygtløse
jomsvikinger kan være sandhed.

An English one. About the Archaeological escavation.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-dorset-16708401

So sometimes, as you can see, the find things in the escacvation that surport the sagas. Ofcause it is not an excact scieance, but I think this makes a statement

This is a huge digression away from Ragnar Lodbrok, but please bear with me - I was spurred on by the mention of the Jomsvikings :)

When I studied archaeology close to 20 years ago I remember we had a little book called "Wolin - Jomsborg : en vikingetids-handelsby i Polen" by Władysław Filipowiak (Roskilde 1991) on our curriculum. And a colleague of mine wrote about the (later) danish crusades in Pomerania (Poland). King Olaf Tryggvasson also did some expeditions down there as you may well be aware of. So I had to dig up that book recently.

There is a great deal of interesting books regarding archaology and the vikings, perhaps particularly in the UK. The following books I have found quite interesting (from the time of my studies):

Graham-Campbell, James (ed.): Cultural Atlas of the Viking World (Oxford 1994)

Graham-Campbell, James (ed.): Vikings in Scotland - an archaelogical survey (Edinburgh 1998)

Iversen, Tore: Trelldommen - Norsk slaveri i middelalderen (Bergen 1997)

Sawyer, Peter (ed.): The Oxford Illustrated History of the Vikings (Oxford 1997).

In The Cultural Atlas of the Viking World there is an interesting passage about the slavic trading towns:

"The pagan Slavic tribes who lived around the southern and eastern shores of the Baltic were becoming consolidated at this time into larger national groupings in a way that resembled broadly what was happening in Scandinavia. The tribes of the western Slavs - including the Obrotites, Wiltzi and Rufieris in the territory of eastern Germany today, and the Wolins and Pomeranians in western Poland - maintained a number of coastal settlements that were of great importance in the Baltic trading sphere. They would have been well-known to merchants from eastern Scandinavia and farther afield, including the Arabs who sometimes sent embassies and trading missions far to the north. Archaology has uncovered many of these settlements, and particularly important discoveries have been made at Arkona and Ralswiek on the island of Rügen in the southern Baltic, the capital of the Rugieris, where the remains of a great trading center, a fortress and one of the largest pagan temples in the Slav lands have been found.

Other coastal market centers at Menzlin, Rostock, Mecklenburg, Oldenburg (Germany), and Wolin, Truso and Kołobrzeg (Poland) are of similar character to those of eastern Scandinavia and Gotland. For example, at Wolin, an island at the mouth of the Oder, archaologistss have uncovered the well-preserved remains of a waterside town; the wooden houses and streets surrounded by a rampart with palisade defences closely resembling those of the contemporary Viking towns at Hedeby and Birka. The buildings contained debris from a wide range of craft-working activities, with particularly fine objects carved in Baltic amber. Wolin was also a center of Slavic cult worship, and an elaborate temple has been excavated, placed by tree-rings to around 966. The Scandinavians knew Wolin as Jómsborg, and during the 10th century it may have been the base of the semilegendary Viking warrior fraternity known from sagas as the Jomsvikings. It seems likely that Scandinavian merchants were permanently settled in some of these Baltic market centers. A large number of Viking graves have been excavated outside the town at Menzlin, on the Peene river in eastern Germany, and it is possible that an élite group of Scandinavian warriorss were permanently settled on one bank of the river from where they may have controlled access to the town.

For the Vikings, the significance of these western Slavic trading centers was that they stood close to the mouths of the Oder and Vistula rivers, the great arteries of trade that gave access, via the Danube, to the Black Sea, and Byzantium (medieval Constantinople and modern Istanbul), and thus to the wealth of the Byzantine empire. The portages along this route were quite difficult to traverse, and many Swedish Vikings, chose to travel to Byzantium by the more easterly route that went through the Gulf of Finland. Along the Way they encountered - and perhaps helped to establish - small coastal trading centers controlled by the eastern Slavs at sites such as Druzno in eastern Poland, Kaup on the Kaliningrad coast, Grobin in Latvia, and Tallinn in Estonia. THey then sailed their merchant ships up the Neva river to Lake Ladoga and the mouth of the Volkhov river. From here they turned southwards to Novgorod on Lake Ilmen, and thence entered the Lovat-Dnieper river road that led to the Black Sea and Byzantium."

Anyways, just wanted to share.. :)

That was very interesting, thank you.
Tina Gardner

@Anette Guldager Boye here is a link to Danish Nobility and the sources that mention Thore.
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/DANISH%20NOBILITY.htm

I totally agree with you on how more and more evidence are reveling them selves to modern day science through research - either to confirm or rule out what has been accepted in regard of Historical events and persons.

Anette Guldager Boye
As i said yesterday there is currently 29 Word-equivalent pages of English text in Ragnar's About section.

7 of these pages is in various Scandinavian(?) languages and needs to be moved to new language Tabs.

Of the remaining 22 pages that is English much is duplicated repeatedly.
Deleting duplication reduces the page count to 6.

Of these 6 pages almost two pages are a copy of another genealogy webpage although to be honest it could actually be an attempt by John Smith in 2012 to make a Geni profile. What ever it is the information it contains does not match the sagas nor the way that Ragnar's Immediate Family is currently organised on Geni.

Deleting those 2 pages results in a grand total of 4 pages from 29.

Of this about 1/2 a page is a direct copy of Ragnar's Encyclopedia Britannica entry, it does not match the current version found at http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/489597/Ragnar-Lothbrok exactly but is a 99% match.

The remaining 3.5 pages are made up of 3 separate texts.

One of these is a note from Curator Remi Pedersen.

A quick glance reveals that the two remaining texts are very similar in form, style and content. After staring at them for a while i concluded that they are in fact both copies of Ragnar's Wikipedia page but plagarised at different times so being noticeably different from each other but still perhaps 80% matched. Neither text was attributed to Wikipedia and interesting the current Wikipedia page for Ragnar is drastically different.

So in summary as far as an English reader is concerned Ragnar's profile has a note from Remi, a old copy of EB's page and two different old copies of a Wiki page.

Actually i missed one step in that the text of this document http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000023216898633 was also in the About in full but formatted so poorly as to be barely readable.

In conclusion the entirety of Ragnar's About (excepting Remi's note) could be replaced with 3 web links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar_Lodbrok
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/489597/Ragnar-Lothbrok
http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000023216898633

As i said privately i would be happy to write a brief summary (inluding Remi's points) with the three links at the bottom and at least three more:

http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/ThattrRagnarsSonar....

www.turbidwater.com/portfolio/downloads/RagnarsSaga.pdf

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Danish_History/Book_IX

I am curious how other people with an interest in this profile feel about this suggestion.

also suggestions of any other websites that should be linked would be appreciated.

There is also a full article by McTurk reproduced in the About section of Bjorn's profile which i will reformat into a Geni document and add a link to in Ragnar's About.

Showing 361-390 of 792 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion