Rice Pudding Part 2, Quest For Truth

The Dedham Museum of Bad Art:
http://www.museumofbadart.org/

INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION: The Times of London has recognized MOBA as one of the 50 Greatest Museums in the world! Also, we are included in TravelNerd's Top 10 Weirdest Museums.

t's the year back then , that's always in wuestion ,hence why they often say 1656/1646 )example.Not the month so much and ususally they would actually write a month asuch as s Mar not a number

Judy - you've probably looked at marriage dates more than I have. Anything about marrying on a Saturday? In my world seems entirely usual.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dedham,_Massachusetts,_1635...

In the 1650s the Reverend John Eliot and the "praying Indians" won a lengthy court battle and were awarded the title to the 2,000 acres (8 km²) of land in the town now known as Natick.

http://natickprayingindians.org/history.html

In 1651 by order of the Massachusetts General Court, Natick was established as the first praying Indian village/town.  The place was set apart for Waban and the Praying Indians so that Waban’s Massachusett people could worship in peace unmolested by the colonists and the surrounding disagreeable Native tribes.  In the beginning there were 51 inhabitants of the Natick Praying Indian Village which would be the first Christian town in the country.  Natick means “Place of Searching” though often referred to as the “Place of Many Hills” or “My Home.  Natick is the  “Mother Village” of the seven original or “Old Praying Towns” and the seven villages that would follow for a total of 14 Praying Indian Towns. 

The Reverend John Eliot was loved by the new Christian native people and became known to all men as the “Apostle to the Indians.”  Natick is home of the first Praying Indian Church (present day Eliot Church of South Natick, MA).   It was the only church to call its members to prayer service by its drum. 

http://theeliotchurch.org/history-13.html

The Eliot Church of South Natick stands on one of the oldest church sites in America. Here in 1651 the first Meetinghouse was built. It was designed to serve as both church and public gathering place for the new Natick plantation of Praying Indians, then formed under the leadership of the Indian Thomas Waban and the missionary pastor, the Rev. John Eliot.

http://theeliotchurch.org/weddings-29.html

The Eliot Church is available for rent to the community and offers an unparalled combination of space and setting. ....

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Doesn't say whether Saturday weddings are customary or not.

Hmmmm, there were no Saturday night "celebrations" until 1689 - but I don't know if a wedding necessarily meant a "celebration" as it does now...

"The Plymouth Colony Puritans of New England disapproved of Christmas celebrations, as did some other Protestant churches of the time. Celebration was outlawed in Boston from 1659. The ban was revoked in 1681 by the English-appointed governor Sir Edmund Andros, who also revoked a Puritan ban on festivities on Saturday nights. Nevertheless, it was not until the mid-19th century that celebrating Christmas became fashionable in the Boston region.[40] Likewise, the colonies banned many secular entertainments on moral grounds, such as games of chance, maypoles, and drama."

From http://people.opposingviews.com/puritan-marriage-beliefs-4508.html:

"Puritan weddings were not lavish affairs, and ceremonies did not feature holy vows or wedding rings. Rather, a wedding was a simple civil process that did not last very long. After the newly married couple signed the court registry, a small dinner would follow."

Really fascinating discussion of Puritan wedding customs and beliefs that still does not answer Saturday question - although it does reveal that November was the favored month for weddings:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sour...

Bradford (governor of the Plymouth Colony) noted that wedding customs were "Established according to the laudable customs of the Low Countries ..."

In other words, in this new Utopia of Dedham, they threw out some of the religious / cultural norms of England, and instituted some of the Enlightenment ideals learned by the Pilgrims during their stay in Leyden.

Jennifer I'm pretty sure this article is from the book I keep "selling" - Seeds of Albion. Now you see why. :)

Totally, you are so right! I loved Albion's seed! that article is on the Austin Community College website but totally uncredited - may very well be a chapter from Albion's seed. Anyhow, I thought it was very well-written and fascinating.

This is one of the things I love so much about genealogy, is getting to poke into the daily life of our ancestors!

Ms. Erica: Here are the dates for Frances RICE 1679-1770 Warwick Va. I point out this may become a transformative link because He's VERY likely the son of Thomas Rice 1654, heretofore identified as a grandson of Edmund RICE of Stanstead by his son Thomas RICE. Transformative because we know that EDMUND is not the father of JOHN RICE 1630 and you may need to look at a disconnect of Thomas 1654 and Marcie Anne Hughes from Edmund RICE & Thomasine Frost- Rice.

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Rice-3911

This family of Francis Rice has two more in the same area that should be son and grandson of Francis1679. They are Francis Rice 1711-1798of Queen, Henrico Co. Va. and Francis 1740-1806 Almeia, Va. So I leave that logic problem to you. If you follow this line which Im aware may be questionable but seems firm to me, it leads back to Thomas Rice 1654. DCR

It's unlikely to be from the Edmund Rice line & I doubt Geni shows it that way. Do remember the rule of thumb: the Virginia families & the New England families are un related on both sides of the Atlantic. Are they in the Rice DNA project? Has their haplogroup been determined?

There's wild rice, white rice, brown rice, bismati rice, long-grain rice. :) Just trying to remind everyone to laugh a little.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_rice
i had to paste it ;p

Eleanor Rice was born in Ireland.

Why am I even looking at this?

Maybe a way to make it easier on us - well, me - is to use this search?

https://www.geni.com/surnames/Rice
There are over 5,000 (the max calculation) in the Geni database, they seem to sort by 1st name.

Carry on.

Thankyou: Francis would be a part of group 17 with snp M253- and I-1 haplogroup. The closest other group is in Pen. where my 3rdgrandfather was living with 2 prior wives. So Frances has the group of names of women who married into the family as listed previously. It's distinct and seperate from All other RICES. Here's the deal: He's in Virginia and so is JOHN RICE HUGHES....same time. The linkage I was referring to was provisional, IF he's the Son of Thomas Rice as another source indicated that would mean a problem....I raised this flag to be examined for a reason. Thankyou for your analysis. DCR

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale+C+Rice+is+related+to+Eleanor+Rice?fro...

Elenore Rice is linked to me here. FYI DCR

Are we looking for Samuel RICE married to Elenore or just set him aside?

There is a story of an indentured servant from IRELAND my sister has not yet responded. I have to ask a 3rd time I suppose. Francis is in my bloodline I just showed you the Womack woman who was part of the Narttative of 1978. Do you want to leave them out of the tree for now? DCR

I've uploaded the haplotypes table to the John Rice ancestry project, you can visit it here

http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000025441093026
(hit URL button)

Or here
http://www.geni.com/projects/John-Rice-of-Dedham-Ancestry/14821 > Photos & documents > documents

Justin: Group 9 on Edmund RICE has no bareing on the first 12 markers that I share with Francis....2 out of the first 12...how could they possibly assign him to a group 9 which has two members in it? I do not understand you at all. WE are looking for similar numeric values on the first 12 alleles right? He has none of them on the first twelve except the same two I do???? DCR

Im going back to my search now. Regards. I'll set this fluke aside. DCR

a big probleme to try to talk is are you sure of all the spellings of the name are they all english? some of them maybe modify to sound english . also i say it many many time english pedegree is only to AP=father to son over and over for woman its another genealogy that not include english pedegree

http://www.geni.com/path/Dale+C+Rice+is+related+to+Eleanor+Rice?fro...

i take Mary Eppes randomly

Mary Eppes

http://www.geni.com/path/Mary+Eppes+is+related+to+Dale+C+Rice?from=...

now for my path

http://www.geni.com/path/mart+is+related+to+Mary+Eppes?from=6000000...

http://www.geni.com/path/Mary+Eppes+is+related+to+G+blondeau?from=3...

you see mr rice blue color ?
find the woman hehehe

Dale, in the table from the link Erica Isabel Howton, (c) posted just before Justin's post, Group 17 is shown with 4 testees and an extrapolation to the marker values of Samuel Rice of Dedham, MA, while Group 9, 1 of at least 7 different groupings of Rices from VA, has 16 testees included.

The tables from the links Justin Swanström posted appear to be from the same site (ERA - Rice Surname Project).

The first 12 marker sites for those in Group 17 only seem 2 share 2 marker site matches with the first 12 marker sites of those in Group 9. The 4 members of Group 17 are 12/12 with each other on those first 12 marker sites. Of the 16 members of Group 9, 13 seem to be 12/12 with each other, while 2 are 11/12 and 1 is 10/12 with the 13 exact matches. The 2 who are 11/12 differ from the others at the same marker site (site #9 in the sequence as listed) as each other, but with different values. The 1 who is 10/12 has variations at the 10th and 12th marker sites in the sequence.

Now, comparing Group 17 to Group 9:

Group # M1 M2 M3 M4 M5 M6 M7 M8 M9 M10 M11 M12

Group 9 13 25 14 11 11 15 12 12 13 14 13 30 (the 13 12/12 matches)
Group 17 13 22 14 10 13 14 11 14 11 12 11 28

These 2 groups only match the same value for marker sites 1 and 3 in the sequence of the first 12 marker sites. Every member of both groups share these values at these marker sites.

The 3 testees in Group 9 who do not match the other 13 testees 12/12, do not vary at these marker sites. One of them has a value of 14 at M9 (my table above), 1 has a value of 12 at that site, and the last has a value of 15 at M10 and 31 at M12 in my table above. None of these values match the values of the members of Group 17 at these marker sites. In fact, 1 has a value further removed at M9 above and 1 has two values further removed at M10 and M12. That leaves only 1 of the 11/12 from Group 9 who, has gotten closer to (but not matching) Group 17 at M9, just 1 additional marker site out of 10 sites not matched between the 2 groups.

So, where is this Francis you speak of?

Sorry, it looks like the spacing did not work out very well with my own table as text.

Thankyou Michael for a brilliant synopsis: My only observation was that Frances and I have the 12/12 exact match of group 17...nothing at all but 2 matches in group 9. 13 24 14 10 13 -14 11 14 11 12 11 28.

After all that, aparantly it's going to be a matter of converging names too far distant to matter. That's why I set this aside for now. Same deal with Sager. Wm. Sager is my great grandfather but the named sSager of the Frances Rice family is convergent since they were born same year, one in Virginia and Mine in New YORK. I don't want to waste any time on this now, it seems they are a distant relative but don't matter yet. DCR

Marte: Some day I want to visit at length with you. I thank you for sharing that beautiful lineage to Mary Eppes My French Chalfant blood is raging to learn more to Parle en France. I loved Paris from Sept. I have Poetry compareing the city to a Braless grande dame wearing a white see through Chimese that you might appreciate. I can't stop thinking about the experience on the Eiffle Tower. Now just imagine for one moment that Henry VI was born king of England and FRANCE....It' stunns the mind with an impact of global proportions to think he was so ill-suited to the task of his role that all was lost to him. He was good to the Tudor 1/2 brothers and sisters and despised by his people. I have much empathy for his plight. DCR 1948

Apologiese to Justin for using Similar instead of EXACT match....I do know the diference and I was in a hurry. DCR

If I can go back (rather diffidently) to Puritan wedding customs, I can see no reason why Saturday weddings should have been unusual. I can see reasons why Sunday weddings should have been unusual (although I might be proved wrong). Celebrations on the Sabbath were not in order, even if Puritan wedding suppers were sober things. But, more importantly, there was an expectation that weddings would be consummated on the wedding night. Making love on the Sabbath? I suspect that this was a taboo, possibly so deep-seated that it did not even have to be stated. 150 years previously the Catholics had an (explicit) taboo against making love on Fridays.

Why people decided that "six days shall thee work, and on the seventh day rest" meant that the seventh day should involve nothing restful at all is beyond me. But they did.

Mark

But therein lies the problem, Mark! The Sabbath started at sundown on Saturday night, as far as the Puritans were concerned. Therefore, if you were going to be all puritanical about it (sorry,), there'd be no lovemaking on Saturday night and no consummation for the poor newlyweds...

Which is why I did all that poking around, because I wondered. It may be a moot point, though, as one of the fun things I discovered is that something like 40% of brides at that time were pregnant... in other words, having already done their consummating, perhaps waiting another day wouldn't matter?

I don't think the Sabbath sounded like very much fun...

Michael, I'm removing my comments. I've thought about it. I think the best way to keep peace on Geni is for me to back out.