Rice Pudding Part 2, Quest For Truth

Sure, I will try: let me look back....focused on Justin: YES Erica you are correct that Thomas ap Rice 1570 is the son of John ap Rice II 1540 & Catherine Perrott Heris of Scottsborough. She is also cousin to Sir Joh Perrott 1527 ca.

So there's no mysteries to any of these and it was just a typo when you wrote that Thomas ap Rhys was not the son of Sir John ap Rhys (1540) & Catrin Perrot?

Have you seen this page?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Sheriff_of_Pembrokeshire

The High Sheriff is the oldest secular office under the Crown. Formerly the High Sheriff was the principal law enforcement officer ...

1550: Sir John Perrot, of Scotsborough
1551: Sir John Perrot, Kt., of Carew
1557: William Rhys of Sandyhaven
1582: John ap Rhys, of Rickeston, Brawdy
1593: John ap Rhys, of Rickeston
1610: Thomas ap Rees, of Scotsborough
1655: James ap Rhys

And this page

http://histfam.familysearch.org/descend.php?personID=I63507&tre...

It seems to me the ap Rhys family continued to do well into the later 17th century?

Just posting this link

http://books.google.com/books?id=pi9WAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA20&ots=...

The Thomas Book: Giving the Genealogies of Sir Rhys Ap Thomas, K. G., the ...
 By Lawrence Buckley Thomas

I always appreciate your postings Ms. ERICA, they are full of insight and great comments that I fully recognise as informed and full of promise to aide understanding. My Garbled memory has thus been jogged by act of recollection here on line with all of you....I am deeply grateful for your patience with me as I struggled to find the True meaning of "The story" my father conveyed 38 years past.

If you have interest I will pass onto to each of you by private message the reconstructed DNA Y chromosome data on the first 25 sites. I did this by a simple statistical method of MODAL reconstruction of the ancestor who bore an I-1 haplogroup and I sorted the names from known or believed to be known sons of Henry Tudor VIII. I selected 7 persons and using Wm. the Conquorer as the reference I found the Ancestor to have arrived in ENGLAND about 113 BCE. Justin will likely be able to find a name....I have no knowledge base other than what he shared here. The selection process is clearly my own device but I found 4 one step variables between John Rice 1624 and this proto ancestor makeing only one assumption....THAT the STORY was TRUE....because it is 100% true or it's 100% False.....Since I found all Kings of England & France do comport with "THE STORY" I reasonably conclude that I have better than a 50-50 chance that it's true...and all cautions are just that....informed, cautions....I respect and appreciate them...Kindest Regards in our ongoing research. DCR 1948

Dale and Erica- what do you think about asking my son if he would be willing to do DNA testing. (he may not, but should I ask?) I actually do not trust the genealogy past John Perrot (up to that seems plausible). It would be interesting to know if Henry VIII is really in our family line. My son loves history, and is very well read, as is my husband. I am just learning. I hope to understand what you say above, Dale.

Hello Joan: You are by all means an ancestoral link by the family history you have constructed here on GENI...I would recognise the eye formation of Bishop Steven Gardiner anywhere, and it is marvelous to see a cousin come forward. Your son's DNA will reflect the Y Chromosme of his father...but he will have X Chromosome passed on by you in combination with the total male/female ancestors in various arrangements to the Phillips lineage...MT. DNA will be helpfull....If he's got an interest by all means test. The results are helpfull on many levels and may retain an important data set for future reference and genetic conditions etc.
According to your Geni History there is a Genetic connection to Henry VIII at the Phillips connection which explains your lovely countenance....as it happens, my just discovered link to Sir John Perrott is an unbroken Male line to Henry VII, Edmund Tudor and Owen Tudor with a very storng family of faces inbetween....so it's very unusual to find that if verified by further testing which is what our friend and mentor JUSTIN recommends....Kind regards and good luck with the test...I'd be pleased to know how it turns out in a PRIVATE post later....My data is also available for PRIVATE posts to those who have such a connection as yours...DCR 1948

Joan: Your direct line is of great interest to the Track Im on...so it's your MT. DNA test we should look at....My sisters test is in progress right now and will be back by Christmas we hope....In this case Ms. Joan....you are the STAR in the family you so graciously brought to our attention....Regards DCR

Private User

I've invited you to the project

http://www.geni.com/projects/DNA-Primer-A-portal-for-genetic-geneal...

DNA Primer - A portal for genetic genealogy

This and the related projects (you'll see them on the "related project" side bar on the right) will help answer questions better than I can. I'm a total beginner in that area!

Feel free to start discussions, including, if you don't mind, repeating your question about your son.

Greetings to all of you on this fine Thanksgiving 2013....We have much to be Thankful for....especially this site....Enjoy your day off!!! DCR

My greetings also. Is there anything wrong with having rice pudding with our meals today?

I'm impressed! 472 posts so far. Happy Thanksgiving and Chanukkah to those who celebrate it. Rice pudding sounds great. Or rice stuffing for the turkey.

Ms. Hatte, Cousin Eldon: What a treat to see you here....both of you are indeed extended family....Eldon looks like the LEE family was our last close connection as my 5th Ggrandfather Wm. Rice Sr. born in Dutchess Co. NY may have been contemporaries....Ms. Hatte, what a delight to the eye...your smile lights up my entire room....Blessings to you and Happy Days ahead...DCR 1948

My Dear Cousins:

On this day of remembrance; let all of us be thankful for all
the benefits and comforts our creator has bestored upon us.
Particularly our extended family. Peace be to all.

+Fr Dalton

Cousin Dalton White Jr.: Is that Anglican C.O. E. clothing you are wearing? Nice to meet you...Happy day to you and yours sir...DCR1948

Cousin Dale

I am wearing a white Alb with a short hood (called a capuche)just behind my head. The white/gold stole I am wearing is because white/gold is
the liturgical color for a wedding which I had just performed on Halloween when the photo was taken, I had just concluded the ceremony and had processed out of the main part of the church. While the alb is nice; you
should have seen me just before I took off the gold/white Cope and Mitre.
I had left the main part of the church when I noticed that the Bride and
Groom had not left with me in the procession (we only practiced it three times). So I went back inside, with my shepherds crook and told the
congregation that I had forgotten my sheep; placed the crook of the staff around the Groom's neck and led the two of them out of the main part of the church.

Brilliant coreography! Thank you for explaination....It looked very old school, Church of ENGLAND from the picture...Kind regards...love the staff story....DCR1948

So that's why you carry a staff! Very useful. :)

Something to bear in mind re: William the Conqueror is that his direct legitimate male line ended with Henry I. To find his Y-DNA you have to work through other relatives (brothers, uncles, illegitimate offspring, etc.).

For better or worse Henry I holds the record for most known illegitimate offspring of an English king - but precisely because they're illegitimate, they're much harder to trace.

Maybe if he'd spent more time with his proper Queen, he wouldn't have been so dependent on just one son. When the poor boy drowned in the White Ship disaster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ship - which took with it the flower of English nobility as well - Henry was devastated and tried to force the English barons to accept his daughter Matilda as Queen regnant. They weren't ready for that (nor was Matilda a particularly accommodating sort of person, rather the reverse), so the upshot was almost twenty years of civil war between Matilda and her usurping cousin Stephen of Blois.

The English will never agree to have another King Stephen, any more than they would another King John, and for similar reasons of (perceived) incompetence.

It took Matilda's son Henry to restore peace and order by decisively smacking Stephen down and making him agree that he, Henry, would succeed him. Stephen, by then, was aging and ill, and had lost the son he had planned to make his heir, so he no longer had much to lose by agreeing.

And so we got Henry II, who was nearly as much of a horndog as Henry I - and with a wife who was not at all inclined to be complaisant about it (Eleanor of Aquitaine, who had previously proven to be too much of a handful for the King of France).

Henry II's Y-DNA, however, comes from the Counts of Anjou, not the Conqueror.

Yes it does....what a group of FRENCH wild men!!! see Geoffroy V, Count of Anjou, Maine and Mortain. The post by Curator Justin last summer some 400 ago brought the question to all our minds indicating that R1b1 might the likely Haplogroup of WTC. The data sets for all the comparrisons of various persons since this thread began use WTC as the reference point....My very crude analysis shows that there are possible sons of HENRY VIII which share the I-1 Haplogroup and one important name Wm. Owen Tudor of Wales is is likely a descendent of David Tudor, a non royal but close enough to be of significance....I had to start someplace so that's why we used WTC....perhaps soon we will have to look to a deeper lineage? Im not qualified to suggest anyone, but Im fascinated by the possibility, to say the least.

Secondly: My reading of the de Berkly family shows a clsoe association of names that are related to the Vermin-like Plantagenets (Henry VIII) view, not mine, and this is a possible reason Sir John Perrott ca1527 was not LEGITIMIZED to become heir....Fitzhenry mother did not have as much on the ball, so to speak, as Mary de Berkley....That's my quick reading at this point...any comment about that is useful in understanding why HENRY excluded him in favor of continuing to try to father an heir....DCR1948

Lastly: I think it's important to note that the story that came down to me from my father was not mistaken or garbled in any way: I bare sole responsibility for not taking notes on that fateful conversation 38 years ago, and had to try to recall it's contents lo these many months later....It took until November 23rd or so to finally recall the detail almost a full year of talk here to bring that information back....History is the final arbritrar of the Truth as we know it, and had I rembered correctly a year ago, there would have been less confusion all around....I was the one confused and bewildered by the revelation, not my father.....FYI DCR1948

What is the revelation, as simply phrased as you can, Dale? (Still confused)

Can you share what you refer to on

"Sir John Perrot not legitimized to become heir" ?

Is this an interpretation of "why" the succession of Kings of England proceeded as history tells us they did?

de Berkley, Mary is Sir John Perrot's mother by Henry Tudor...a very successful father of sons....He was right there...I think it was his family's closness to the Plantagenets at NEVEILL's and Herbers, etc. that excluded him...but Im a novice/beginner here so it's just a guess....DCR 1948

FYI: Sybil Jones 1530 is 1/2 sister to Elenore RHYS 1525....The Rhys family entertwines the Tudor/Perrott story. Sibyl is mother to Sir James Perrott by Sir John Perrott and she is mother to John Parrott II John "the Quaker" Perrot contemporary to my family. DCR1948

The Isobel Verney listed on the Tomb at Tenby is this family I think, Erica Elizabeth Verney or William Verney, of Langley Manor or Edmund Verney or Sir Ralph II de Verney, Lord Mayor of London .....who is incedentally a Lord Mayor of London. DCR

Last Clue: DeVere = DEVEReau Lettice Knollys, Countess of Essex & Leicester The Hon. Sir William Devereux, MP Barbara Farley...This and the Roach name also are listed on the Tenby Monument...FYI

Well, one other reason for not legitimating is that no king had tried that and gotten away with it - there was a very clear social distinction between "proper" children and "improper" ones.

That very question had scuppered the previous dynasty - and Edward IV's sons had been a lot more "proper" than any of Hank 8 Tudor's casual flings.

Thankyou Maven: Scuppered huh?

Yeah - Edward IV actually *married* Elizabeth Woodville (in a hasty and secret ceremony) because it was the only way he was going to get to bed her, and he didn't like being told "No".

Trouble was, it was the *second* time he had pulled that ploy (that we know of), and his first wife was still alive and un-annulled.

That, in a nutshell, was flat bigamy, and the main reason it came to be an issue was that Edward died suddenly with the boys still children. If he'd lived another ten years, the whole thing could probably have been "forgotten". But by this time the English had had several experiences with child Kings, mostly bad, and there were *known* to be alternate claimants (e.g. Henry Tudor) sniffing around.

And Edward's little brother was also a viable claimant if the doodoo hit the whirligig - and he was a man grown, and tested in war.

It must have looked like a no-brainer, once the Bishop of Bath and Wells blew the whistle. But - the one quality that Richard didn't have, that a successful king *must* have, was luck. His had never been all that good, and once he accepted the crown it turned REALLY bad.