Rice Pudding Part 2, Quest For Truth

I FOUND ISOBEL!!!!! SHe's a VERNEY as I had guessed from the list. DCR

Thus we have all the PERROTT ancestors listed on Margaret MERCER's Tomb....This is not a Coinicdence.....DCR

The Mother of Margaret Mercer is unknown.....The father has been identified as William MERCER and a BROTHER FRANCES....spelled in the feminine form of Francis....got me off track with that. Margaret's DOB is listed in 1580 and the family PERROTT has interesting lapse of DATA around the the Mother of Isobel Johns....daughter of Thomas Johns Sir Thomas Jones, MP . Sybil Johns married to Griffith ap RICE 1500 beheaded by HENRY VIII is a very interesting circle of Family....just fyi. DCR

surly for the frances mercier his mother was frances/francoise/franci.......
//paternal/matriarchal genealogie

i keep reading this ;)
une épopée

mart

Dale C. Rice

You never lose a document or an image on Geni once it's been uploaded to the profile, or a link put in the overview to an external site.

For everyone / anyone - please do this:

1) go to the profile. In this case Margaret Mercer

2) get OUT of "tree view.". Click on "profile.". This opens it up to the full profile view.

3) The 1st tab is labeled "overview.". That's where notes can be added. There's a "fold" - you need to open it UP to see continuing notes. So do that by clicking on "read more."

4) The external links show as blue hyperlinks. The source is from a book:

https://archive.org/stream/HeraldicVisitationsOfWalesAndPartOfTheMa...

So click on it (in another window so you can compare with the profile & tree)

5) alternately / additionally - the 2nd tab is labeled "media.". Click on it and you can get closer views of 1) an image 2) a document

6) and alternately / additionally - the 5th tab is labeled "sources.". Click on it and you will see the document called the Herald's Visitation (etc). It is a "snapshot" of the book page stored on the Geni servers. If you click on it, you can study the page that way.

Interpreting the language used by the Herald in 1613 is, of course, a different question. :)

Private User

That was interesting information about the Mercer surname. Would you mind putting it in this module?

https://www.geni.com/surnames/mercer

(click on

This is off track a bit but one of my enjoyable "visits" was with the Locke family, who were prominent "mercers of London"

http://www.mercers.co.uk/history

Martin RhNegativ

Are French Mercers / Merciers (etc) also associated, originally, with the occupation of "clothier?"

am not historian or a pro genealogist but i understand english name in french (cuz i am) for the clothier (cloutier) i gona study that branch .for mercier, i know relative in here in quebec ..actualy we dont need genealogie around we know we are close
as we say (petite ville, grande famille
its off topic but we all share the need to found our relative we got each other story all put togheter we gona find :)
couz mart

http://www.famillesmercier.org/en/mercier-families?fontstyle=f-larger

Erica Howton

Updated the Mercer Surname with the
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Mercer#ixzz2ldl0fIv1

Merci, Mart! :)

Perhaps the French name has a different etymological derivation - from "thank you" or from the prayer: "God grant mercy on your soul."

(gesture) head bowing..i am taking a recess :)

Ah - I was off track. mart, can you add your find to the surname module also?

It looks like

"Beside the hypothesis of the late Ernest Mercier, author of the volume "Mercier for centuries," meaning that the name comes from Mercier kingdom of Mercia in England in the tenth century, another equally plausible hypothesis is that the name originated of France. Its apparition coincided with the establishment of shops on the right shore of the Seine river in Paris in the Xth century."

"These merchants, who served in the Middle Age as intermediaries between the public and manufacturers, were called “merciers”. However, the word “mercerie” had more scope, it comes from the Latin word merx, which means everything is sold and the old ax word merz which means merchandise."

Well maybe I'm not so off track. When I went shopping in Paris I definitely had a moment of

"Lordy, Lordy, mercy!"

When looking at the price tags.

Ladies since the 10th century have been reacting that way? :):)

See this story on the MERCER family my Story is connected to: The name of OLIPHANT is what I recalled and it's explained here at : www.electricscotland.comhistory/Epilogernation/mercer2.html. It failed to upload on the screen so trying here. DCR

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/nation/mercer2.htm

You were missing a period. Cut & paste, don't type! :)

Mia Culpa!!! My BAD....don't see so well these days....glad that you could follow....very interesting set of details...had forgotten much of the explaination but it's my fault for not being prepared to take notes 30 years back....DCR

The Carey DNA project Shows that the main Haplogroup is R1b....Justin has indicated that this was a widespread group among various post Wm. THE Conquorer lines....But there was a question about I-1 Haplogroup to which John RICE 1624 belongs, as does Wm Owen Tudor previously posted comparrison and now comes The EDWARDS I-1 contingents from kits 85744 and N50040 are Group I the results are identical for both except a one step difference on the 2nd site Y chromosome.....the second set of numbers are from Group III all results are from Wales & England. 13 21 14 10 13 14 11 16 11 12 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 23 16 20 30 12 14 15 16

Group III from EdwardsDNA Project: are both identical results but differ slightly from group I: 13 23 14 10 13 14 11 14 11 12 11 29 15 7 9 8 11 23 15 20 28 12 14 15 16.....Now, I am keeping track of Haplogroups with various surnames attatched we now have Rice- Tudor - Edwards in the I-1 haplogroup camp and only Carey in R1B.....conclude whatever you wish...DCR 1948

Edwards DNA site is located at url:

http:..www.familytreedna.com/public/edwardsdna/default.aspx?section=yresults

FYI: John RICE 1624 of Dedham is a 23/25 match of the Edwards in Group III on the family tee above....with a one step difference at site #3 and #18

Please see Thomas Pollard 1670 DNA to John Rice 1624 of Dedham, fyi13 22 14 10 14 14 11 14 11 12 11 28 16 8 9 8 10 23 16 21 28 12 14 14 16 T.P
22 14 10 13 14 11 14 11 12 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 24 16 20 28 12 14 15 16 J.R.
Sir Richard Pollard, MP. Thomas is a brother to other's listed below the master profile...This is family....Who fits into all these slots? Tudor, Pollard, Edwards, Rice with an I1 haplogroup? DCR

I don't know if this is true or not...I'll try to see if I can put together the inductive logic in a way that makes sense to you all of us....the overlapping circles of lives with near Y chromosome matches will differ each from the other....but one chromosomal match should fit between all the above menitoned Pollards, Stuckley, Edwardes, Perrott, ap Rice....the one person who fits into the niche of my Cousine lines which GENI provides I think points at Sir JOHN PERROTT....I know i have not proved anything....but there is common ancestory within 100 years of the EDWARDS/ JohnRICE 1624 2 mutations per hundred is within the NORM as I've read about them...DCR 1948

JUSTIN: perhaps your guidance here is appropriate....what we did not know last February/March through the summer was that the family has connections blood, cousin connections to Pollards, Edwards, DeBerkley, and Littleton/Phillips at Olive LORT....absent these cousin lines there is nothing to tald about....Perrott ap RICE 1600 has these connections so he not an isolated Welsh gentleman....He is however without means to pay for a 700 lb. debt in silver....which his father could have covered but he likely found that he would not be receiving his inheritence as first born...because he's not Thomas ap RICE;s son....He's the son of sir Joh Perrott with TUDOR blood ties to Henry VIII and the tomb of Margaret Mercer points back to his line in the carved tomb hearaldry of Valens and LeVere precursors to Isobel Valens as is Roache....the overlap of lives, and Now DNA which I have posted are all I-1 haplogroup...The exact matches are in IRELAND where sir John SERVED, and 3 in Scotland....DCR 1948

Dale

You wrote:

"Perrott ap RICE 1600 ... because he's not Thomas ap RICE;s son....He's the son of sir Joh Perrott "

I'm very confused about this comment.

I see here, with 8 citations:

http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I63507&t...

Perrot ap Rhys (b 1608) 1st son of Thomas ap Rhys (b abt 1570) & Margaret Mercer (d 1610)

Married the daughter of Sir Edward Lyttleton, 4 children

His parentage was signed off by the head of the family at the King's Herald's Visitation of 1613. There's a good chance the Herald saw for himself.

https://archive.org/stream/HeraldicVisitationsOfWalesAndPartOfTheMa...

What reason is there to suggest his parents were not his parents?

Sir Thomas ap Rhys remarried after the death of Margaret Mercer as we know from the monument at Tenby.

Also I need to point out that Margaret Mercer's further parentage & ancestry is not necessarily "not known" - it was not recorded by the Herald in Wales, that's all. You would need to see if the Mercer family was recorded by the Herald in Lancashire.

My cause for putting that out there is not the historical information...that's clear that they are father son...What is less clear is that person we know as John RICE 1624 had DNA and haplgroups which comport with other potential sons with Tudor DNA....Edwards cited above is 88%DNA match and and those two differences are but one step apart....The other men cited have similar DNA profiles but not as close as Edwards/ John RICE1624....remember Im coming from the statement is TRUE that Perrott ap RICE is the FATHER of JOHN RICE 1624 leaving out the mother as unknown....The overlapping DNA can come from only one Tudor Source....and that's Sir JohnPERROTT....his son John II was only 10 or 12 in 1580 when Margaret was born..... No one is deneying that Perrot is born of Margaret MERCER....Im saying the behavior profile of his leaving when an heir could easily pay off a 700lb debt with his TRUE father's help was not in play here....The story is either 100% True or its 100% False....It augers for true. DCR

I am totally lost.

Let's do it in simpler language for me, if you'd be so kind.

William Mercer, Esq., of Lancashire, born (say) 1550. He was the father of
Margaret Mercer, died 1610.

She married, abt 1600, to Sir Thomas ap Rhys of Rickardson; they had 7 surviving children, the oldest was Perrot ap Rhys.

Thomas survived Margaret & married again. Thomas was the youngest son of John ap Rhys & Catrin Perrot.

Am I correct so far?

Dale, I'm willing to help but I don't know what you're asking.

One problem I have with understanding is that there is nothing significant or remarkable about being connected to all these different families. The English nobility is a huge group of densely intermarried families. When you connect to one of them, you connect to all of them. I don't mean to offend anyone, but finding intricate connections is on the same level as someone saying they had cornflakes for breakfast. Interesting but not really earthshaking ;)

I get lost in the details, because I'm not understanding how or why they are significant to your particular search.

The debt was owed by Perrott and he fled WALES 1540 to avoid paying the debt...I don't know what the debt was for but pretty sure they know back in the TENBY Hall of Records going back to that era....The fact that Perrott allegedly brought John RICE 1624 to AMERICA back to his family in Ma. is a piece that was conveyed in 1978.... on a Merchanct Ship (likely cause of the debt) and later sold the ship to begin life in Virginia on the James RIVER...(.a seperate inquiry
This is how I am piecing together the facts of the FAMILY of PERROTT ap RICE. If we are not Welsh with 43% English, Irish, 32% Scandanavian with my Danish ANCESTY now proved here at GENI and17% East European...with 9% unknown what would you call such a person if not WELSH? LOL....
The DNA that overlaps between the EDWARDS son of H.TUDOR and Wm. Owen TUDOR, andThomas Pollard and JOHN RICE 1624 is coinicdence, and the R1r1b haplogroup of Henry Carey is proof that he's the king's son? I;ve proved the statement "Your are descended from a line of ENGLISH KINGS see My Edward I family tree connection below. This is the swan song of this part of my Inquiry then....I have been listening....very closely to your words...DCR1948

Edward II, King of England Edward III, king of England Geoffroy V, Count of Anjou, Maine and Mortain and the family of Mary Boleyn....Thanks to GENI I know my Father's story to be true. Regards DCR

Dale can you answer my question?